10 ms·

Why They Lost the Wheel (1973)

93 points by diodorus 9y ago

pseingatl 9y ago
The article contains a howler: it's Pre-ColUmbian, not pre-ColOmbian. This article has nothing to do with the pre-ColOmbian short-lived Republic of Nueva Granada.
- nekopa 9y ago
  Maybe he was referring to this period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Colombia#Pre-Colombian_period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Colombia#Pre-Colomb... It could make sense in the context of the area of Colombia being a crossroad territory similar to the Middle East, plus the timelines match...
- soyiuz 9y ago
  Columbus in Spanish is Colombo. Either spelling should be acceptable really.
  - pseingatl 9y ago
    No, it's not. In Spanish his name is Cristobal Colón. Ask a Colombian if it's OK to spell the name of their country "Columbia." The answer is "no."
    - jacobolus 9y ago
      In Spanish this era is called precolombino.
  - jaclaz 9y ago
    Columbus is (presumably) born Cristoforo Colombo, in Italy. In Latin: Cristophorus Columbus In Spanish: Cristóbal Colón In Portuguese: Cristóvão Colombo
lifeisstillgood 9y ago
A fantastic article - the economic advantage of camels just killed off a fundamental invention. fascinating and may I say on a front page full of Spectre doom, just spot on for "gratifying intellectual curiosity".
soyiuz 9y ago
An account of historical causes and effects is hard. We should not attribute the lack of roads to the lack of wheels, the author writes. Wheels and roads develop "in parallel." Yet he comes back to the "inefficient harness" as the cause of the wheel dying off. If indeed there was competition between "horse + harness + wheel" and "camel," why wouldn't a culture produce "camel + harness + wheel?" I am unconvinced by the reasoning here.
- lmm 9y ago
  No-one's ever been able to come up with a simple but efficient harness for a camel; there are no known pre-19th century ones. Whereas the horse collar is fundamentally just a padded loop, and was invented independently in Europe and China at least.
  - gambiting 9y ago
    What it the reason for that?
    - lmm 9y ago
      I assume accidents of physiology.
  - sandworm101 9y ago
    Horse collars are far more than padding. That they are solid, not loops of rope, means that the animal can push hard against them without choking itself.
    - jacobolus 9y ago
      From what I remember early horse collars would choke the animals, and more sophisticated ones were a big deal invention in late first millennium Europe (or maybe introduced to Europe at that point from contact with Asians?). This was one reason oxen were used as draft animals in preference to horses.
- scroot 9y ago
antman 9y ago
Older thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9123869 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9123869
RichardHeart 9y ago
"Worldwide, however, the population of camels is rapidly declining." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_feral_camel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_feral_camel The exact population of Australian feral camels is not known. In 2008 the number of feral camels was estimated to be more than one million, with the capability of doubling in number every 8 to 10 years.[18][19] In 2013, this estimate was revised to a population of 600,000 prior to culling operations, and around 300,000 camels after culling, and increasing 10% per year.[20]
laretluval 9y ago
If you're a historical wheel enthusiast, this is another good read: http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2011/12/the-chinese-wheelbarrow.html http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2011/12/the-chinese-wheelbarr... Essentially, traditional Chinese wheelbarrows were so efficient that they resulted in massive deterioration of Chinese road infrastructure.
- eesmith 9y ago
  "so efficient that they resulted in massive deterioration of Chinese road infrastructure." I think you inverted the cause/effect relationship described in that article. It says: > Prior to the third century AD, China had an extensive and well-maintained road network suited for animal powered carts and wagons. It was only surpassed in length by the Ancient Roman road network. ... The Chinese and Roman road systems were built (independently) over the course of five centuries during the same period in history. Curiously, due to (unrelated) political reasons, both systems also started to disintegrate side by side from the third century AD onwards, and herein lies the explanation for the success of the Chinese wheelbarrow. As we have seen, the one-wheeled vehicle appeared during this period, and this is no coincidence. Increasingly, it was the only vehicle that could be operated on the deteriorating road network. The centuries of extensive roads in China was during the Han dynasty. "By the 2nd century, the empire declined amidst land acquisitions, invasions, and feuding between consort clans and eunuchs. The Yellow Turban Rebellion broke out in AD 184, ushering in an era of warlords." (Quoting Wikipedia.) The decline of the Han Dynasty and the fragmentation of the country into independent kingdoms lead to the decline in the road system. Not the Chinese wheelbarrow.
mannykannot 9y ago
I am a bit surprised that the article does not discuss (if only to dismiss) the notion that camels were better adapted than oxen to the environment of the middle east.
- sandworm101 9y ago
  The middle east is a big place. It isnt all hot/dry sand. There are many places where camels were not the best adapted to the environment but were nevertheless more economical, at least until the invention of ridged horse collars.
- dkarl 9y ago
  The authors talk about advantages in this section, and I assume if there was another purported advantage they thought was worth addressing, they would have mentioned it here: The ox cart was equally slow, and in the competition the camel had certain positive advantages. It ate otherwise unusable desert plants, which made its upkeep inexpensive. Little wood, a valuable commodity in the largely deforested Middle East, was required by ancient saddling technology. And its care and breeding could be left to the nomads and thus not be a burden upon the farmer or merchant. These advantages meant that camel transport was about 20 percent cheaper than wagon transport The article is from 1973, so perhaps the idea you're thinking of has arisen since then.
olivermarks 9y ago
I was pondering the other day how robotic 'camels' are now possible as a transport option, I'm sure the military have been exploring this. Camels have an advantage in rough terrain over wheels... Separately, robotic camel jockeys https://youtu.be/HUsibMZlyXg https://youtu.be/HUsibMZlyXg
- kuschku 9y ago
  You mean, something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNZPRsrwumQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNZPRsrwumQ ?
- ghaff 9y ago
  They have although US plans seem to be on hold for now AFAIK, e.g. https://www.theverge.com/2015/12/29/10682746/boston-dynamics-big-dog-ls3-marines-development-shelved https://www.theverge.com/2015/12/29/10682746/boston-dynamics...
pbhjpbhj 9y ago
It doesn't appear to mention how terrible dragging an ordinary wheel through soft sand is, which surely had to be one of the major factors. Also the lack of wood on desert routes for easy repair; and the fast deterioration of wood in desert climates. The only consideration of wood is how little is needed for a camel saddle. Increased or moved desertification making routes unsuitable with wooden wheels seems like it might easily surpass sociopolitical factors.

93 points by diodorus 9y ago

The article contains a howler: it's Pre-ColUmbian, not pre-ColOmbian. This article has nothing to do with the pre-ColOmbian short-lived Republic of Nueva Granada.

nekopa 9y ago
Maybe he was referring to this period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Colombia#Pre-Colombian_period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Colombia#Pre-Colomb... It could make sense in the context of the area of Colombia being a crossroad territory similar to the Middle East, plus the timelines match...
soyiuz 9y ago
Columbus in Spanish is Colombo. Either spelling should be acceptable really.
- pseingatl 9y ago
  No, it's not. In Spanish his name is Cristobal Colón. Ask a Colombian if it's OK to spell the name of their country "Columbia." The answer is "no."
  - jacobolus 9y ago
    In Spanish this era is called precolombino.
- jaclaz 9y ago
  Columbus is (presumably) born Cristoforo Colombo, in Italy. In Latin: Cristophorus Columbus In Spanish: Cristóbal Colón In Portuguese: Cristóvão Colombo

lifeisstillgood 9y ago

A fantastic article - the economic advantage of camels just killed off a fundamental invention. fascinating and may I say on a front page full of Spectre doom, just spot on for "gratifying intellectual curiosity".

soyiuz 9y ago

An account of historical causes and effects is hard. We should not attribute the lack of roads to the lack of wheels, the author writes. Wheels and roads develop "in parallel." Yet he comes back to the "inefficient harness" as the cause of the wheel dying off. If indeed there was competition between "horse + harness + wheel" and "camel," why wouldn't a culture produce "camel + harness + wheel?" I am unconvinced by the reasoning here.

lmm 9y ago
No-one's ever been able to come up with a simple but efficient harness for a camel; there are no known pre-19th century ones. Whereas the horse collar is fundamentally just a padded loop, and was invented independently in Europe and China at least.
- gambiting 9y ago
  What it the reason for that?
  - lmm 9y ago
    I assume accidents of physiology.
- sandworm101 9y ago
  Horse collars are far more than padding. That they are solid, not loops of rope, means that the animal can push hard against them without choking itself.
  - jacobolus 9y ago
    From what I remember early horse collars would choke the animals, and more sophisticated ones were a big deal invention in late first millennium Europe (or maybe introduced to Europe at that point from contact with Asians?). This was one reason oxen were used as draft animals in preference to horses.
scroot 9y ago

antman 9y ago

Older thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9123869 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9123869

RichardHeart 9y ago

"Worldwide, however, the population of camels is rapidly declining." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_feral_camel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_feral_camel The exact population of Australian feral camels is not known. In 2008 the number of feral camels was estimated to be more than one million, with the capability of doubling in number every 8 to 10 years.[18][19] In 2013, this estimate was revised to a population of 600,000 prior to culling operations, and around 300,000 camels after culling, and increasing 10% per year.[20]

laretluval 9y ago

If you're a historical wheel enthusiast, this is another good read: http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2011/12/the-chinese-wheelbarrow.html http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2011/12/the-chinese-wheelbarr... Essentially, traditional Chinese wheelbarrows were so efficient that they resulted in massive deterioration of Chinese road infrastructure.

eesmith 9y ago
"so efficient that they resulted in massive deterioration of Chinese road infrastructure." I think you inverted the cause/effect relationship described in that article. It says: > Prior to the third century AD, China had an extensive and well-maintained road network suited for animal powered carts and wagons. It was only surpassed in length by the Ancient Roman road network. ... The Chinese and Roman road systems were built (independently) over the course of five centuries during the same period in history. Curiously, due to (unrelated) political reasons, both systems also started to disintegrate side by side from the third century AD onwards, and herein lies the explanation for the success of the Chinese wheelbarrow. As we have seen, the one-wheeled vehicle appeared during this period, and this is no coincidence. Increasingly, it was the only vehicle that could be operated on the deteriorating road network. The centuries of extensive roads in China was during the Han dynasty. "By the 2nd century, the empire declined amidst land acquisitions, invasions, and feuding between consort clans and eunuchs. The Yellow Turban Rebellion broke out in AD 184, ushering in an era of warlords." (Quoting Wikipedia.) The decline of the Han Dynasty and the fragmentation of the country into independent kingdoms lead to the decline in the road system. Not the Chinese wheelbarrow.

mannykannot 9y ago

I am a bit surprised that the article does not discuss (if only to dismiss) the notion that camels were better adapted than oxen to the environment of the middle east.

sandworm101 9y ago
The middle east is a big place. It isnt all hot/dry sand. There are many places where camels were not the best adapted to the environment but were nevertheless more economical, at least until the invention of ridged horse collars.
dkarl 9y ago
The authors talk about advantages in this section, and I assume if there was another purported advantage they thought was worth addressing, they would have mentioned it here: The ox cart was equally slow, and in the competition the camel had certain positive advantages. It ate otherwise unusable desert plants, which made its upkeep inexpensive. Little wood, a valuable commodity in the largely deforested Middle East, was required by ancient saddling technology. And its care and breeding could be left to the nomads and thus not be a burden upon the farmer or merchant. These advantages meant that camel transport was about 20 percent cheaper than wagon transport The article is from 1973, so perhaps the idea you're thinking of has arisen since then.

olivermarks 9y ago

I was pondering the other day how robotic 'camels' are now possible as a transport option, I'm sure the military have been exploring this. Camels have an advantage in rough terrain over wheels... Separately, robotic camel jockeys https://youtu.be/HUsibMZlyXg https://youtu.be/HUsibMZlyXg

kuschku 9y ago
You mean, something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNZPRsrwumQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNZPRsrwumQ ?
ghaff 9y ago
They have although US plans seem to be on hold for now AFAIK, e.g. https://www.theverge.com/2015/12/29/10682746/boston-dynamics-big-dog-ls3-marines-development-shelved https://www.theverge.com/2015/12/29/10682746/boston-dynamics...

pbhjpbhj 9y ago

It doesn't appear to mention how terrible dragging an ordinary wheel through soft sand is, which surely had to be one of the major factors. Also the lack of wood on desert routes for easy repair; and the fast deterioration of wood in desert climates. The only consideration of wood is how little is needed for a camel saddle. Increased or moved desertification making routes unsuitable with wooden wheels seems like it might easily surpass sociopolitical factors.