4 ms·

Even if Oracle and Google settle in some peaceful way (best outcome out of the likely ones), it is very likely Oracle will continue this avenue of profit. Perha

by alecco 16y ago

Even if Oracle and Google settle in some peaceful way (best outcome out of the likely ones), it is very likely Oracle will continue this avenue of profit. Perhaps IBM is next, given the long time hostilities among both. Or the Android-based handset manufacturers and sellers. There's a lot of shakedown money to be made for Oracle. And it is probably even lawful in spite of it being labeled as morally wrong. Good luck.

brown9-2 16y ago
As the article says, IBM's JVM is an officially licensed (and sanctioned) implementation, meaning they had Sun's / have Oracle's permission. So what could they be sued over?
- alecco 16y ago
  I'm a complete outsider of the subject, but with complex licensing and trivial software patents there's often something overlooked, some clause. One of the comments there mentions incompatibilities in classlibs.
  - protomyth 16y ago
    Well, buying a license that doesn't actually fully cover what you are buying would tend to not make sense. Oracle going after IBM and its huge patent portfolio has about the same chances as a gerbil attacking a tiger. Theoretically possible, but not a good idea.
    - Pahalial 16y ago
      Eminently true. Even with the acquisition of Sun's portfolio, Oracle is still dwarfed by Big Blue several times over. Suffice it to say, IBM has had the most patents granted of any American company for the past 17 consecutive years as of early 2010: http://www.networkworld.com/news/2010/011210-patents-2009.html http://www.networkworld.com/news/2010/011210-patents-2009.ht... Certainly an unknown quantity must be quite specious, but the sheer cost of fighting the number of patents they could counter-attack with would probably bankrupt Oracle, not to mention however many turned out to have merit.
    - jimbokun 16y ago
      "a gerbil attacking a tiger" Very apt description of the SCO vs. IBM law suit, with the predictable result.
      - alecco 16y ago
        You are reflecting on hindsight. Also, SCO didn't happen to own Unix. That was why they lost, IBM's size didn't affect the outcome as much as the particular details. Oracle owns rightfully Java and all its related patents. AFAIK, Oracle can pull a low blow like not licensing Java to IBM next time or perhaps more subtle putting ridiculous clauses for new standardized versions. They can even do so with popular support by switching to Affero GPLv3, for example. IBM would never run something like that license due to the patent-related characteristics of it. I wouldn't underestimate Oracle.
        protomyth 16y ago
        It isn't the corporate size that is the issue, it is the size of the patent portfolio that IBM has. I would not doubt IBM's response to any of your scenarios is to find 10 or so patents key to Oracle's database software and file a patent infringement case. I don't think we are underestimating Oracle, we are just given IBM their due.
        alecco 16y ago
        >>> "a gerbil attacking a tiger" > It isn't the corporate size that is the issue Argh. And note I originally gave IBM as an example of just ONE possible target after Google. So you selectively challenge one point and then even on that point dismiss the other issues (like the "low blow" argument where Oracle doesn't even have to sue the target, be it IBM or some other deep pocketed corporation.)
        protomyth 16y ago
        I admit to a bit of confusion on your response. I was pointing out in the "low blow" scenario that Oracle is much more vulnerable than IBM to a contest of patents. Oracle might not be suing in your scenarios, but that wouldn't stop a suit by IBM. The crux of this whole thing is that Google isn't using the GPLed version, wasn't paying a license fee to Sun, and isn't to Oracle. Oracle believes Google should and (probably after failed talks) is filing a lawsuit. IBM and Blackberry payed to license like other companies. So, Oracle really has no reason to sue anyone but Google.
headius 16y ago
IBM is safe, since they've played by the rules and since they have an even bigger patent bat than Oracle does. There may be tensions, but probably nothing we'll ever see from the outside. I think other OSS Java implementations are safe too, because: a. they don't harm Oracle's business in any substantial way (nobody's using them), and b. there's no profit in going after them. If you start to look at everything Oracle does through the lens of "profit above all else" the clouds become a little less cloudy.
- alecco 16y ago
  Safe now, but for how long? What about upcoming versions? What about relicensing? What if they are breaking some fine print? It's not that easy.

by alecco 16y ago

brown9-2 16y ago

As the article says, IBM's JVM is an officially licensed (and sanctioned) implementation, meaning they had Sun's / have Oracle's permission. So what could they be sued over?

alecco 16y ago
I'm a complete outsider of the subject, but with complex licensing and trivial software patents there's often something overlooked, some clause. One of the comments there mentions incompatibilities in classlibs.
- protomyth 16y ago
  Well, buying a license that doesn't actually fully cover what you are buying would tend to not make sense. Oracle going after IBM and its huge patent portfolio has about the same chances as a gerbil attacking a tiger. Theoretically possible, but not a good idea.
  - Pahalial 16y ago
    Eminently true. Even with the acquisition of Sun's portfolio, Oracle is still dwarfed by Big Blue several times over. Suffice it to say, IBM has had the most patents granted of any American company for the past 17 consecutive years as of early 2010: http://www.networkworld.com/news/2010/011210-patents-2009.html http://www.networkworld.com/news/2010/011210-patents-2009.ht... Certainly an unknown quantity must be quite specious, but the sheer cost of fighting the number of patents they could counter-attack with would probably bankrupt Oracle, not to mention however many turned out to have merit.
  - jimbokun 16y ago
    "a gerbil attacking a tiger" Very apt description of the SCO vs. IBM law suit, with the predictable result.
    - alecco 16y ago
      You are reflecting on hindsight. Also, SCO didn't happen to own Unix. That was why they lost, IBM's size didn't affect the outcome as much as the particular details. Oracle owns rightfully Java and all its related patents. AFAIK, Oracle can pull a low blow like not licensing Java to IBM next time or perhaps more subtle putting ridiculous clauses for new standardized versions. They can even do so with popular support by switching to Affero GPLv3, for example. IBM would never run something like that license due to the patent-related characteristics of it. I wouldn't underestimate Oracle.
      - protomyth 16y ago
        It isn't the corporate size that is the issue, it is the size of the patent portfolio that IBM has. I would not doubt IBM's response to any of your scenarios is to find 10 or so patents key to Oracle's database software and file a patent infringement case. I don't think we are underestimating Oracle, we are just given IBM their due.
        alecco 16y ago
        >>> "a gerbil attacking a tiger" > It isn't the corporate size that is the issue Argh. And note I originally gave IBM as an example of just ONE possible target after Google. So you selectively challenge one point and then even on that point dismiss the other issues (like the "low blow" argument where Oracle doesn't even have to sue the target, be it IBM or some other deep pocketed corporation.)
        protomyth 16y ago
        I admit to a bit of confusion on your response. I was pointing out in the "low blow" scenario that Oracle is much more vulnerable than IBM to a contest of patents. Oracle might not be suing in your scenarios, but that wouldn't stop a suit by IBM. The crux of this whole thing is that Google isn't using the GPLed version, wasn't paying a license fee to Sun, and isn't to Oracle. Oracle believes Google should and (probably after failed talks) is filing a lawsuit. IBM and Blackberry payed to license like other companies. So, Oracle really has no reason to sue anyone but Google.

headius 16y ago

IBM is safe, since they've played by the rules and since they have an even bigger patent bat than Oracle does. There may be tensions, but probably nothing we'll ever see from the outside. I think other OSS Java implementations are safe too, because: a. they don't harm Oracle's business in any substantial way (nobody's using them), and b. there's no profit in going after them. If you start to look at everything Oracle does through the lens of "profit above all else" the clouds become a little less cloudy.

alecco 16y ago
Safe now, but for how long? What about upcoming versions? What about relicensing? What if they are breaking some fine print? It's not that easy.