4 ms·

It seems like schools are focused more on expanding their brands, and growth than educating. I think there are certain industries, like health care and educati

by narkee 16y ago

It seems like schools are focused more on expanding their brands, and growth than educating. I think there are certain industries, like health care and education that shouldn't be treated like for-profit ventures. It probably won't sit well with this crowd, but there are some things in life that should supercede wealth acquisition.

lotusleaf1987 16y ago
Why do people down-vote just because they don't agree? Save the down-votes for off-topic or offensive comments.
- mkramlich 16y ago
  Agreed. This is why I think PG should make a change to the voting system to make it so that only admins could ever bring a comment's score below 1. As it is now, I see a lot of users' karma penalized simply because at least one other user disagrees with their comment. Offensive or off-topic, fine. But simple disagreement is not a fair reason. Down-voting a comment from say 8 to 7 because you disagree seems reasonable. But bringing it down from 1 to 0 or worse seems unreasonable and contributes to groupthink and political correctness.
  - lsc 16y ago
    This is a cultural problem, I think, and one that is hard to fix through technical measures. The root of the problem is that the rating system is programmed as a measure of /comment quality/ while people use it as an "I agree" or "I disagree" which is something different entirely. We could add a separate counter for "Agree/disagree" and "quality comment" but you'd still need the cultural change. You need your users to value quality comments, even if they disagree with the content of those comments. Looking at an argument you disagree with and seeing it's merits is a hard thing to do yourself; it's a very difficult thing to get other people to do. If we want to change things, I think a better thing to look at is maybe making who voted publicly viewable? I know I quite often upvote people I argue with (I mean, if your comment is worth responding to, surely it is worth an upvote) and I think if they can see that I upvoted them, it sometimes inspires conversation rather than argument.
  - lotusleaf1987 16y ago
    Exactly, downvoting shuts down free debate. It's the opposite of free speech because you're essentially getting punished if not everyone agrees. I don't necessarily agree with every comment, but I'd rather them be made than not. A marketplace of ideas.
- tokenadult 16y ago
  Here is pg from 911 days ago on why downvoting for disagreement is okay: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 He is pondering changes to the voting system, as this issue is discussed every month or so.
yequalsx 16y ago
You are right about the profit motive in health care. There are too many negative externalities. We hope that selfless professionalism super cedes insidious profit motives but increasingly this isn't the case. Doctors getting kickbacks to prescribe drugs or fake research are on the rise. Similarly for education. The for profit schools get their money on the backs of the poor and those who shouldn't be in college. Obviously they don't get all of their money from such people but a large portion of it comes from these people. The profit motive in education is a bad one and should be avoided.
lionhearted 16y ago
> and education that shouldn't be treated like for-profit ventures There's an assumption here that for-profit ventures perform worse or serve interests worse than non-profits. In my experience with non-profits, there's lower accountability, higher salaries with less performance, less accomplishing of the organization's objectives, and more corruption and politics. Nonprofits have historically done very poorly at their stated aims, and vastly, vastly underperformed for-profit companies in building up the world. Also, the majority of universities and schools are already set up as non-profits, which might be part of why they're so dysfunctional.
- joe_the_user 16y ago
  I don't think you can reduce things to "perform better" or "perform worse". For profit ventures can be many things very well. But one also has to consider what they perform. For profit education is great for giving a single individual specific skills they need that will make them money. For profit education is unlikely to be interested in giving a person a "wide liberal arts background". And the thing about a wide background is that isn't worth much to the individual in terms of money. They might look back on their lives as having been richer for it or they might not. But giving a person a wider background is worth more to society as a whole, in everything from life being more interesting to politics being less polarized.
- yequalsx 16y ago
  Pretty much everyone who should be going to college is going to college. The market is saturated. The for profit colleges are targeting people, largely, who shouldn't be going to college. They use misleading statistics to dupe unsuspecting people. People who think the college has their interests at heart. This goes on in the non-profit college sector but is much more pernicious and rampant in the for profit sector. Default rates for student loans in the for profit sector are higher than for the non-profits. Non-profit, mostly, have standards for admission. The for-profits don't. They just want people to spend money. Faculty at for profit colleges get fired if their standards are too high. The for profit system is all about getting students in and making sure they never fail a course. Keep them paying. For profit motive in education as it currently exists is a disaster.

by narkee 16y ago

lotusleaf1987 16y ago

Why do people down-vote just because they don't agree? Save the down-votes for off-topic or offensive comments.

mkramlich 16y ago
Agreed. This is why I think PG should make a change to the voting system to make it so that only admins could ever bring a comment's score below 1. As it is now, I see a lot of users' karma penalized simply because at least one other user disagrees with their comment. Offensive or off-topic, fine. But simple disagreement is not a fair reason. Down-voting a comment from say 8 to 7 because you disagree seems reasonable. But bringing it down from 1 to 0 or worse seems unreasonable and contributes to groupthink and political correctness.
- lsc 16y ago
  This is a cultural problem, I think, and one that is hard to fix through technical measures. The root of the problem is that the rating system is programmed as a measure of /comment quality/ while people use it as an "I agree" or "I disagree" which is something different entirely. We could add a separate counter for "Agree/disagree" and "quality comment" but you'd still need the cultural change. You need your users to value quality comments, even if they disagree with the content of those comments. Looking at an argument you disagree with and seeing it's merits is a hard thing to do yourself; it's a very difficult thing to get other people to do. If we want to change things, I think a better thing to look at is maybe making who voted publicly viewable? I know I quite often upvote people I argue with (I mean, if your comment is worth responding to, surely it is worth an upvote) and I think if they can see that I upvoted them, it sometimes inspires conversation rather than argument.
- lotusleaf1987 16y ago
  Exactly, downvoting shuts down free debate. It's the opposite of free speech because you're essentially getting punished if not everyone agrees. I don't necessarily agree with every comment, but I'd rather them be made than not. A marketplace of ideas.
tokenadult 16y ago
Here is pg from 911 days ago on why downvoting for disagreement is okay: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 He is pondering changes to the voting system, as this issue is discussed every month or so.

yequalsx 16y ago

You are right about the profit motive in health care. There are too many negative externalities. We hope that selfless professionalism super cedes insidious profit motives but increasingly this isn't the case. Doctors getting kickbacks to prescribe drugs or fake research are on the rise. Similarly for education. The for profit schools get their money on the backs of the poor and those who shouldn't be in college. Obviously they don't get all of their money from such people but a large portion of it comes from these people. The profit motive in education is a bad one and should be avoided.

lionhearted 16y ago

> and education that shouldn't be treated like for-profit ventures There's an assumption here that for-profit ventures perform worse or serve interests worse than non-profits. In my experience with non-profits, there's lower accountability, higher salaries with less performance, less accomplishing of the organization's objectives, and more corruption and politics. Nonprofits have historically done very poorly at their stated aims, and vastly, vastly underperformed for-profit companies in building up the world. Also, the majority of universities and schools are already set up as non-profits, which might be part of why they're so dysfunctional.

joe_the_user 16y ago
I don't think you can reduce things to "perform better" or "perform worse". For profit ventures can be many things very well. But one also has to consider what they perform. For profit education is great for giving a single individual specific skills they need that will make them money. For profit education is unlikely to be interested in giving a person a "wide liberal arts background". And the thing about a wide background is that isn't worth much to the individual in terms of money. They might look back on their lives as having been richer for it or they might not. But giving a person a wider background is worth more to society as a whole, in everything from life being more interesting to politics being less polarized.
yequalsx 16y ago
Pretty much everyone who should be going to college is going to college. The market is saturated. The for profit colleges are targeting people, largely, who shouldn't be going to college. They use misleading statistics to dupe unsuspecting people. People who think the college has their interests at heart. This goes on in the non-profit college sector but is much more pernicious and rampant in the for profit sector. Default rates for student loans in the for profit sector are higher than for the non-profits. Non-profit, mostly, have standards for admission. The for-profits don't. They just want people to spend money. Faculty at for profit colleges get fired if their standards are too high. The for profit system is all about getting students in and making sure they never fail a course. Keep them paying. For profit motive in education as it currently exists is a disaster.