3 ms·

The whole point of my Echo is to play music and set timers and pre-heat my car in the morning and such. There’s no avenue for any consumer anything unless you a

The whole point of my Echo is to play music and set timers and pre-heat my car in the morning and such. There’s no avenue for any consumer anything unless you allow it by using the device to shop. I don’t entirely understand why people are surprised that using an Amazon device to shop on Amazon might result in biases toward what Amazon sees as beneficial. Buying stuff with a voice assistant is antithetical to the sort of comparison shopping you need to do to have a hope of retaining some agency in what you decide to buy.

pwinnski 9y ago
That's not why Amazon sold you an echo, though. Cortana or Siri exist without obvious nefarious purpose. Alex and Google are clearly trying to push advertising. I know which I would prefer to set timers and play music for me.
- addicted 9y ago
  It’s a massive failure of the tech industry that the vast majority of the world doesn’t even realize this, and therefore places very little, if any, price premium on the “does not snoop on you” feature.
- mikeash 9y ago
  Does it matter why they sold it to me if I don't use it that way?
  - walterbell 9y ago
    Yes, because it will likely evolve in ways not optimized for you, vs supporting a product that caters to your use case. Many products co-evolve with users, as the product modifies daily workflows. If you are not the target user, the product can evolve based on requirements that are adversarial to you.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      For $30, if I get a year or two of use out of it before Amazon evolves away my use cases, it was still nice to have while it lasted.
      - rhizome 9y ago
        And then what, throw it in the trash like the non-biodegradable toxic-metals container that it is?
        mikeash 9y ago
        Take it to the county’s electronics recycling location. I doubt it’ll become useless so quickly though.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    Yes, because its overall societal effect and role is more important that how some specific people use it if it's unrepresentative.
- mnm1 9y ago
  That's exactly why Amazon sold you an echo. To buy stuff from them. Warming up the car and playing music are just little features to get you to put it into your home--they are not the main features. Please don't tell me this isn't obvious in 2018.
  - blacksmith_tb 9y ago
    Well, call it a good bet - I haven't ever bought anything with my Echo Dot, but the chances that I will, having it sitting there turning on the lights etc., are greater than if it wasn't sitting there.
    - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
      You've still given away commercially useful information though that Amazon can trade - for example, the companies you're using for your lights and any other automation hardware. If that's associated with your Amazon account then companies can track you through the payment details and use that to target you with advertising in that podcast you paid for, or in the advert in your coffee company email you get when they wish you Happy New Year, or whatever. That targetted selling may have no direct effect through the Echo itself, but the potential is there to increase the influence on you in other channels. There may be other info, we have 3 kids who use our FireTV: I'd imagine they can estimate the child's age & sex and give targetted advertising in emails/web pages to companies selling toys for those ages. Based on the apps (whatever they call them, skills?), they can probably target that much better.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    What determines “the main features”? The ones I listed certainly are the main ones for me. I’m sure Amazon wants me to use the ones that make them more money, but if I don’t....
  - propogandist 9y ago
    I got a amazon firestick recently. Installed Netguard on it (free android firewall) and pevented a few installed apps from phoning home. My firestick then refused to work. I left some of the apps disabled and my device is stuck in bootloop. Now imagine the data they're collecting from their suite of amazon devices, where you can't control the data-mining.
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  >Cortana or Siri exist without obvious nefarious purpose. // It's not nefarious, but what happens if you ask a question like "open a website where I can buy music" or "find me a powerful new computer", or whatever. Is there no bias in Cortana/Siri towards MS/Apple? How about if you ask "is Siri or Cortana a better voice assistant?" ...
reaperducer 9y ago
Alexa: "Your car does not seem to want to start this morning. Would you like me to order you an Uber [instead of a Lyft] and e-mail you brochures for the newest Plymouths?" The fact that you interact with it each morning is more powerful than any print, broadcast, or web ad Amazon can buy. They're gotten into your brain. Even if you never see the device (which is now a visual billboard in your home), when you think about it, you're thinking about Amazon. You've already been commoditized and you don't even realize it.
- mikeash 9y ago
  How is that different from any other product I use regularly?
  - acct1771 9y ago
    Your shoes won't eventually be pushed an OTA update that tells you to buy the same brand of socks....? Do you really not see the inherent problems with these devices, or is the remote start just that nice? =D
    - mikeash 9y ago
      I really don't see the problems. It looks to me that people have an emotional dislike of these devices, and then try to rationalize arguments against them. For example, by far the most common argument against these devices is that they could be spying on you by listening to your conversations 24/7. This is true, they could be. However, it's also true of cell phones, which 99% of the complainers have had near them 24/7 for the past 10 or 20 years. If you think the Echo is a terrible device because it could spy on you but you keep a cell phone in your pocket all day, you're trying to justify a negative emotional response to the Echo, not rationally analyzing the situation. The comment I replied to above, by reaperducer, attempts to argue that the Echo is implicitly commoditizing me every day because I interact with it. This may be true, but does that also mean I'm being commoditized by Whirlpool and Moen and Philips and Tesla and Trader Joe's? If yes, then what does that even mean, and how am I meant to avoid it? You then jump in with a vague hypothetical about a future update making the device start trying to sell me socks. I'm pretty sure Amazon isn't going to start putting ads in with my music or weather reports. If they do, I'll stop using the device. It only cost me $30. I've spent far more on devices that now sit on a shelf unused. That's just the nature of consumer electronics. If you want to convince me that these devices are inherently bad or have massive inherent problems, it's really simple. All you have to do is tell me what problem they cause me that could be eliminated by getting rid of the device. So far, everyone who's attempted to do this has either stated a problem that wouldn't be eliminated (e.g. the spying potential or the daily interaction getting the brand into my brain) or a problem I don't suffer (e.g. getting ads).

pwinnski 9y ago

That's not why Amazon sold you an echo, though. Cortana or Siri exist without obvious nefarious purpose. Alex and Google are clearly trying to push advertising. I know which I would prefer to set timers and play music for me.

addicted 9y ago
It’s a massive failure of the tech industry that the vast majority of the world doesn’t even realize this, and therefore places very little, if any, price premium on the “does not snoop on you” feature.
mikeash 9y ago
Does it matter why they sold it to me if I don't use it that way?
- walterbell 9y ago
  Yes, because it will likely evolve in ways not optimized for you, vs supporting a product that caters to your use case. Many products co-evolve with users, as the product modifies daily workflows. If you are not the target user, the product can evolve based on requirements that are adversarial to you.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    For $30, if I get a year or two of use out of it before Amazon evolves away my use cases, it was still nice to have while it lasted.
    - rhizome 9y ago
      And then what, throw it in the trash like the non-biodegradable toxic-metals container that it is?
      - mikeash 9y ago
        Take it to the county’s electronics recycling location. I doubt it’ll become useless so quickly though.
- coldtea 9y ago
  Yes, because its overall societal effect and role is more important that how some specific people use it if it's unrepresentative.
mnm1 9y ago
That's exactly why Amazon sold you an echo. To buy stuff from them. Warming up the car and playing music are just little features to get you to put it into your home--they are not the main features. Please don't tell me this isn't obvious in 2018.
- blacksmith_tb 9y ago
  Well, call it a good bet - I haven't ever bought anything with my Echo Dot, but the chances that I will, having it sitting there turning on the lights etc., are greater than if it wasn't sitting there.
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    You've still given away commercially useful information though that Amazon can trade - for example, the companies you're using for your lights and any other automation hardware. If that's associated with your Amazon account then companies can track you through the payment details and use that to target you with advertising in that podcast you paid for, or in the advert in your coffee company email you get when they wish you Happy New Year, or whatever. That targetted selling may have no direct effect through the Echo itself, but the potential is there to increase the influence on you in other channels. There may be other info, we have 3 kids who use our FireTV: I'd imagine they can estimate the child's age & sex and give targetted advertising in emails/web pages to companies selling toys for those ages. Based on the apps (whatever they call them, skills?), they can probably target that much better.
- mikeash 9y ago
  What determines “the main features”? The ones I listed certainly are the main ones for me. I’m sure Amazon wants me to use the ones that make them more money, but if I don’t....
- propogandist 9y ago
  I got a amazon firestick recently. Installed Netguard on it (free android firewall) and pevented a few installed apps from phoning home. My firestick then refused to work. I left some of the apps disabled and my device is stuck in bootloop. Now imagine the data they're collecting from their suite of amazon devices, where you can't control the data-mining.
pbhjpbhj 9y ago
>Cortana or Siri exist without obvious nefarious purpose. // It's not nefarious, but what happens if you ask a question like "open a website where I can buy music" or "find me a powerful new computer", or whatever. Is there no bias in Cortana/Siri towards MS/Apple? How about if you ask "is Siri or Cortana a better voice assistant?" ...

reaperducer 9y ago

Alexa: "Your car does not seem to want to start this morning. Would you like me to order you an Uber [instead of a Lyft] and e-mail you brochures for the newest Plymouths?" The fact that you interact with it each morning is more powerful than any print, broadcast, or web ad Amazon can buy. They're gotten into your brain. Even if you never see the device (which is now a visual billboard in your home), when you think about it, you're thinking about Amazon. You've already been commoditized and you don't even realize it.

mikeash 9y ago
How is that different from any other product I use regularly?
- acct1771 9y ago
  Your shoes won't eventually be pushed an OTA update that tells you to buy the same brand of socks....? Do you really not see the inherent problems with these devices, or is the remote start just that nice? =D
  - mikeash 9y ago
    I really don't see the problems. It looks to me that people have an emotional dislike of these devices, and then try to rationalize arguments against them. For example, by far the most common argument against these devices is that they could be spying on you by listening to your conversations 24/7. This is true, they could be. However, it's also true of cell phones, which 99% of the complainers have had near them 24/7 for the past 10 or 20 years. If you think the Echo is a terrible device because it could spy on you but you keep a cell phone in your pocket all day, you're trying to justify a negative emotional response to the Echo, not rationally analyzing the situation. The comment I replied to above, by reaperducer, attempts to argue that the Echo is implicitly commoditizing me every day because I interact with it. This may be true, but does that also mean I'm being commoditized by Whirlpool and Moen and Philips and Tesla and Trader Joe's? If yes, then what does that even mean, and how am I meant to avoid it? You then jump in with a vague hypothetical about a future update making the device start trying to sell me socks. I'm pretty sure Amazon isn't going to start putting ads in with my music or weather reports. If they do, I'll stop using the device. It only cost me $30. I've spent far more on devices that now sit on a shelf unused. That's just the nature of consumer electronics. If you want to convince me that these devices are inherently bad or have massive inherent problems, it's really simple. All you have to do is tell me what problem they cause me that could be eliminated by getting rid of the device. So far, everyone who's attempted to do this has either stated a problem that wouldn't be eliminated (e.g. the spying potential or the daily interaction getting the brand into my brain) or a problem I don't suffer (e.g. getting ads).