14 ms·

The whole POINT of Echo is to always listen and direct your consumer pattern to Amazon and other approved affiliates. To me it represents pure evil and I don't

by Feniks 9y ago

The whole POINT of Echo is to always listen and direct your consumer pattern to Amazon and other approved affiliates. To me it represents pure evil and I don't see how you could defend against it. Except for not buying into this stupid shit.

mikeash 9y ago
The whole point of my Echo is to play music and set timers and pre-heat my car in the morning and such. There’s no avenue for any consumer anything unless you allow it by using the device to shop. I don’t entirely understand why people are surprised that using an Amazon device to shop on Amazon might result in biases toward what Amazon sees as beneficial. Buying stuff with a voice assistant is antithetical to the sort of comparison shopping you need to do to have a hope of retaining some agency in what you decide to buy.
- pwinnski 9y ago
  That's not why Amazon sold you an echo, though. Cortana or Siri exist without obvious nefarious purpose. Alex and Google are clearly trying to push advertising. I know which I would prefer to set timers and play music for me.
  - addicted 9y ago
    It’s a massive failure of the tech industry that the vast majority of the world doesn’t even realize this, and therefore places very little, if any, price premium on the “does not snoop on you” feature.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    Does it matter why they sold it to me if I don't use it that way?
    - walterbell 9y ago
      Yes, because it will likely evolve in ways not optimized for you, vs supporting a product that caters to your use case. Many products co-evolve with users, as the product modifies daily workflows. If you are not the target user, the product can evolve based on requirements that are adversarial to you.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        For $30, if I get a year or two of use out of it before Amazon evolves away my use cases, it was still nice to have while it lasted.
        rhizome 9y ago
        And then what, throw it in the trash like the non-biodegradable toxic-metals container that it is?
        mikeash 9y ago
        Take it to the county’s electronics recycling location. I doubt it’ll become useless so quickly though.
    - coldtea 9y ago
      Yes, because its overall societal effect and role is more important that how some specific people use it if it's unrepresentative.
  - mnm1 9y ago
    That's exactly why Amazon sold you an echo. To buy stuff from them. Warming up the car and playing music are just little features to get you to put it into your home--they are not the main features. Please don't tell me this isn't obvious in 2018.
    - blacksmith_tb 9y ago
      Well, call it a good bet - I haven't ever bought anything with my Echo Dot, but the chances that I will, having it sitting there turning on the lights etc., are greater than if it wasn't sitting there.
      - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
        You've still given away commercially useful information though that Amazon can trade - for example, the companies you're using for your lights and any other automation hardware. If that's associated with your Amazon account then companies can track you through the payment details and use that to target you with advertising in that podcast you paid for, or in the advert in your coffee company email you get when they wish you Happy New Year, or whatever. That targetted selling may have no direct effect through the Echo itself, but the potential is there to increase the influence on you in other channels. There may be other info, we have 3 kids who use our FireTV: I'd imagine they can estimate the child's age & sex and give targetted advertising in emails/web pages to companies selling toys for those ages. Based on the apps (whatever they call them, skills?), they can probably target that much better.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      What determines “the main features”? The ones I listed certainly are the main ones for me. I’m sure Amazon wants me to use the ones that make them more money, but if I don’t....
    - propogandist 9y ago
      I got a amazon firestick recently. Installed Netguard on it (free android firewall) and pevented a few installed apps from phoning home. My firestick then refused to work. I left some of the apps disabled and my device is stuck in bootloop. Now imagine the data they're collecting from their suite of amazon devices, where you can't control the data-mining.
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    >Cortana or Siri exist without obvious nefarious purpose. // It's not nefarious, but what happens if you ask a question like "open a website where I can buy music" or "find me a powerful new computer", or whatever. Is there no bias in Cortana/Siri towards MS/Apple? How about if you ask "is Siri or Cortana a better voice assistant?" ...
- reaperducer 9y ago
  Alexa: "Your car does not seem to want to start this morning. Would you like me to order you an Uber [instead of a Lyft] and e-mail you brochures for the newest Plymouths?" The fact that you interact with it each morning is more powerful than any print, broadcast, or web ad Amazon can buy. They're gotten into your brain. Even if you never see the device (which is now a visual billboard in your home), when you think about it, you're thinking about Amazon. You've already been commoditized and you don't even realize it.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    How is that different from any other product I use regularly?
    - acct1771 9y ago
      Your shoes won't eventually be pushed an OTA update that tells you to buy the same brand of socks....? Do you really not see the inherent problems with these devices, or is the remote start just that nice? =D
      - mikeash 9y ago
        I really don't see the problems. It looks to me that people have an emotional dislike of these devices, and then try to rationalize arguments against them. For example, by far the most common argument against these devices is that they could be spying on you by listening to your conversations 24/7. This is true, they could be. However, it's also true of cell phones, which 99% of the complainers have had near them 24/7 for the past 10 or 20 years. If you think the Echo is a terrible device because it could spy on you but you keep a cell phone in your pocket all day, you're trying to justify a negative emotional response to the Echo, not rationally analyzing the situation. The comment I replied to above, by reaperducer, attempts to argue that the Echo is implicitly commoditizing me every day because I interact with it. This may be true, but does that also mean I'm being commoditized by Whirlpool and Moen and Philips and Tesla and Trader Joe's? If yes, then what does that even mean, and how am I meant to avoid it? You then jump in with a vague hypothetical about a future update making the device start trying to sell me socks. I'm pretty sure Amazon isn't going to start putting ads in with my music or weather reports. If they do, I'll stop using the device. It only cost me $30. I've spent far more on devices that now sit on a shelf unused. That's just the nature of consumer electronics. If you want to convince me that these devices are inherently bad or have massive inherent problems, it's really simple. All you have to do is tell me what problem they cause me that could be eliminated by getting rid of the device. So far, everyone who's attempted to do this has either stated a problem that wouldn't be eliminated (e.g. the spying potential or the daily interaction getting the brand into my brain) or a problem I don't suffer (e.g. getting ads).
tyfon 9y ago
I agree, the correct defense for this (and many other things) is to not buy it. It should however come with a severe warning about what it is doing in a way that my mother would understand. Otherwise she would just see it as a nice thing to tell her what to do.
- flukus 9y ago
  It should at least tell you that your voice input is being sent to amazon for processing, that's not immediately obvious and many would probably assume it's only required for certain functions.
deeth_starr_v 9y ago
>> "always listen" This is somewhat correct but misleading. It's always listening for the "wake word" -- alexa or echo -- and then it processes your request. But it's not sending all conversations up to amazon. Just your alexa requests.
- cantrip 9y ago
  Not yet at least. Once attitudes towards privacy change further towards continual surveillance they'll be the first to flip the switch and turn it on.
  - rando444 9y ago
    Well currently they'd have to completely rebuild the hardware. This person gave a very good explanation here: https://np.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/comments/7m91u9/if_google_devices_only_start_listening_once_you/drsdxe1/ https://np.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/comments/7m91u9/if_go...
    - pavlov 9y ago
      These devices will get replaced every few years anyway. Having to send out new hardware to customers is absolutely no problem for Amazon.
      - woolvalley 9y ago
        Then by that point privacy as a selling point apple will have the homepod for sale? I have a bunch, and you only really use them for about 5 things, with the most useful thing being music.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    Might be pretty expensive to do that.
  - deeth_starr_v 9y ago
    I've used the microphone hardware that Echo uses and it doesn't stream audio until the wake word is received.
criddell 9y ago
Pure evil? Really? I think you are being a little hyperbolic. I have an Echo and it is helping Amazon get better at selling me stuff. When I try to list the probable or even possible harms from this, I can't come up with a lot. Compare that to something like driving my car. 100 people every day are killed in their car. Even so, I still drive because the expected utility of getting to point B is much greater than the expected harm from doing so.
- 45h34jh53k4j 9y ago
  the echo is pure evil -- in the same way the 1984 Telescreen is evil. It exists to control, manipulate and spy on you. If you dont see this, I am truly sorry my friend, but it is too late.
  - criddell 9y ago
    Assuming that you aren't just suffering from paranoid delusions, care to share the likely harms from me using an Echo? I use a car and the worst case scenario is death or permanent disability, right? People die in their cars every day. So what's the worst case scenario for using an Echo? How many people a day does that happen to?
    - sgarman 9y ago
      Being locked in a room for your entire life sure is safer then driving a car so that can't be bad for you right? I think ops point is it's dangerous to your mind and lively hood as well as society as a whole - not to your physical body like your car example.
      - criddell 9y ago
        But the potential harm from driving is very clear. The worst case scenario hits more than 30,000 people every year in the US. Smart people can calculate a dollar cost to that damage. What's the worst case scenario from having an Echo? How many people does it affect each year? What's the dollar cost of that damage?

by Feniks 9y ago

mikeash 9y ago

The whole point of my Echo is to play music and set timers and pre-heat my car in the morning and such. There’s no avenue for any consumer anything unless you allow it by using the device to shop. I don’t entirely understand why people are surprised that using an Amazon device to shop on Amazon might result in biases toward what Amazon sees as beneficial. Buying stuff with a voice assistant is antithetical to the sort of comparison shopping you need to do to have a hope of retaining some agency in what you decide to buy.

pwinnski 9y ago
That's not why Amazon sold you an echo, though. Cortana or Siri exist without obvious nefarious purpose. Alex and Google are clearly trying to push advertising. I know which I would prefer to set timers and play music for me.
- addicted 9y ago
  It’s a massive failure of the tech industry that the vast majority of the world doesn’t even realize this, and therefore places very little, if any, price premium on the “does not snoop on you” feature.
- mikeash 9y ago
  Does it matter why they sold it to me if I don't use it that way?
  - walterbell 9y ago
    Yes, because it will likely evolve in ways not optimized for you, vs supporting a product that caters to your use case. Many products co-evolve with users, as the product modifies daily workflows. If you are not the target user, the product can evolve based on requirements that are adversarial to you.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      For $30, if I get a year or two of use out of it before Amazon evolves away my use cases, it was still nice to have while it lasted.
      - rhizome 9y ago
        And then what, throw it in the trash like the non-biodegradable toxic-metals container that it is?
        mikeash 9y ago
        Take it to the county’s electronics recycling location. I doubt it’ll become useless so quickly though.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    Yes, because its overall societal effect and role is more important that how some specific people use it if it's unrepresentative.
- mnm1 9y ago
  That's exactly why Amazon sold you an echo. To buy stuff from them. Warming up the car and playing music are just little features to get you to put it into your home--they are not the main features. Please don't tell me this isn't obvious in 2018.
  - blacksmith_tb 9y ago
    Well, call it a good bet - I haven't ever bought anything with my Echo Dot, but the chances that I will, having it sitting there turning on the lights etc., are greater than if it wasn't sitting there.
    - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
      You've still given away commercially useful information though that Amazon can trade - for example, the companies you're using for your lights and any other automation hardware. If that's associated with your Amazon account then companies can track you through the payment details and use that to target you with advertising in that podcast you paid for, or in the advert in your coffee company email you get when they wish you Happy New Year, or whatever. That targetted selling may have no direct effect through the Echo itself, but the potential is there to increase the influence on you in other channels. There may be other info, we have 3 kids who use our FireTV: I'd imagine they can estimate the child's age & sex and give targetted advertising in emails/web pages to companies selling toys for those ages. Based on the apps (whatever they call them, skills?), they can probably target that much better.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    What determines “the main features”? The ones I listed certainly are the main ones for me. I’m sure Amazon wants me to use the ones that make them more money, but if I don’t....
  - propogandist 9y ago
    I got a amazon firestick recently. Installed Netguard on it (free android firewall) and pevented a few installed apps from phoning home. My firestick then refused to work. I left some of the apps disabled and my device is stuck in bootloop. Now imagine the data they're collecting from their suite of amazon devices, where you can't control the data-mining.
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  >Cortana or Siri exist without obvious nefarious purpose. // It's not nefarious, but what happens if you ask a question like "open a website where I can buy music" or "find me a powerful new computer", or whatever. Is there no bias in Cortana/Siri towards MS/Apple? How about if you ask "is Siri or Cortana a better voice assistant?" ...
reaperducer 9y ago
Alexa: "Your car does not seem to want to start this morning. Would you like me to order you an Uber [instead of a Lyft] and e-mail you brochures for the newest Plymouths?" The fact that you interact with it each morning is more powerful than any print, broadcast, or web ad Amazon can buy. They're gotten into your brain. Even if you never see the device (which is now a visual billboard in your home), when you think about it, you're thinking about Amazon. You've already been commoditized and you don't even realize it.
- mikeash 9y ago
  How is that different from any other product I use regularly?
  - acct1771 9y ago
    Your shoes won't eventually be pushed an OTA update that tells you to buy the same brand of socks....? Do you really not see the inherent problems with these devices, or is the remote start just that nice? =D
    - mikeash 9y ago
      I really don't see the problems. It looks to me that people have an emotional dislike of these devices, and then try to rationalize arguments against them. For example, by far the most common argument against these devices is that they could be spying on you by listening to your conversations 24/7. This is true, they could be. However, it's also true of cell phones, which 99% of the complainers have had near them 24/7 for the past 10 or 20 years. If you think the Echo is a terrible device because it could spy on you but you keep a cell phone in your pocket all day, you're trying to justify a negative emotional response to the Echo, not rationally analyzing the situation. The comment I replied to above, by reaperducer, attempts to argue that the Echo is implicitly commoditizing me every day because I interact with it. This may be true, but does that also mean I'm being commoditized by Whirlpool and Moen and Philips and Tesla and Trader Joe's? If yes, then what does that even mean, and how am I meant to avoid it? You then jump in with a vague hypothetical about a future update making the device start trying to sell me socks. I'm pretty sure Amazon isn't going to start putting ads in with my music or weather reports. If they do, I'll stop using the device. It only cost me $30. I've spent far more on devices that now sit on a shelf unused. That's just the nature of consumer electronics. If you want to convince me that these devices are inherently bad or have massive inherent problems, it's really simple. All you have to do is tell me what problem they cause me that could be eliminated by getting rid of the device. So far, everyone who's attempted to do this has either stated a problem that wouldn't be eliminated (e.g. the spying potential or the daily interaction getting the brand into my brain) or a problem I don't suffer (e.g. getting ads).

tyfon 9y ago

I agree, the correct defense for this (and many other things) is to not buy it. It should however come with a severe warning about what it is doing in a way that my mother would understand. Otherwise she would just see it as a nice thing to tell her what to do.

flukus 9y ago
It should at least tell you that your voice input is being sent to amazon for processing, that's not immediately obvious and many would probably assume it's only required for certain functions.

deeth_starr_v 9y ago

>> "always listen" This is somewhat correct but misleading. It's always listening for the "wake word" -- alexa or echo -- and then it processes your request. But it's not sending all conversations up to amazon. Just your alexa requests.

cantrip 9y ago
Not yet at least. Once attitudes towards privacy change further towards continual surveillance they'll be the first to flip the switch and turn it on.
- rando444 9y ago
  Well currently they'd have to completely rebuild the hardware. This person gave a very good explanation here: https://np.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/comments/7m91u9/if_google_devices_only_start_listening_once_you/drsdxe1/ https://np.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/comments/7m91u9/if_go...
  - pavlov 9y ago
    These devices will get replaced every few years anyway. Having to send out new hardware to customers is absolutely no problem for Amazon.
    - woolvalley 9y ago
      Then by that point privacy as a selling point apple will have the homepod for sale? I have a bunch, and you only really use them for about 5 things, with the most useful thing being music.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  Might be pretty expensive to do that.
- deeth_starr_v 9y ago
  I've used the microphone hardware that Echo uses and it doesn't stream audio until the wake word is received.

criddell 9y ago

Pure evil? Really? I think you are being a little hyperbolic. I have an Echo and it is helping Amazon get better at selling me stuff. When I try to list the probable or even possible harms from this, I can't come up with a lot. Compare that to something like driving my car. 100 people every day are killed in their car. Even so, I still drive because the expected utility of getting to point B is much greater than the expected harm from doing so.

45h34jh53k4j 9y ago
the echo is pure evil -- in the same way the 1984 Telescreen is evil. It exists to control, manipulate and spy on you. If you dont see this, I am truly sorry my friend, but it is too late.
- criddell 9y ago
  Assuming that you aren't just suffering from paranoid delusions, care to share the likely harms from me using an Echo? I use a car and the worst case scenario is death or permanent disability, right? People die in their cars every day. So what's the worst case scenario for using an Echo? How many people a day does that happen to?
  - sgarman 9y ago
    Being locked in a room for your entire life sure is safer then driving a car so that can't be bad for you right? I think ops point is it's dangerous to your mind and lively hood as well as society as a whole - not to your physical body like your car example.
    - criddell 9y ago
      But the potential harm from driving is very clear. The worst case scenario hits more than 30,000 people every year in the US. Smart people can calculate a dollar cost to that damage. What's the worst case scenario from having an Echo? How many people does it affect each year? What's the dollar cost of that damage?