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Under EU law (this is not legal advice), any bug that wasn't known to you at time of sale, but was present at time of sale, has to be fixed by the vendor. For 2

Under EU law (this is not legal advice), any bug that wasn't known to you at time of sale, but was present at time of sale, has to be fixed by the vendor. For 2 years after sale usually, some countries have longer (afaik, Norway for example has it set at 5 years. As EEA member, they also follow the EU laws on warranty).

mehrdadn 9y ago
Ahh, I was referring to the US, and bugs that weren't known at the time of sale (I'll edit this in), but thank you, this is still useful information.
- ta_wh 9y ago
  See the three-year warranty here for boxed CPUs: https://www.intel.com/content/dam/support/us/en/documents/processors/Limited_Warranty_8.5x11_for_Web_English.pdf https://www.intel.com/content/dam/support/us/en/documents/pr... Note the first bullet under "WHAT THIS LIMITED WARRANTY DOES NOT COVER": "design defects or errors in the Product (Errata). Contact Intel for information on characterized errata." Guess we're not covered on this one. EDIT: That being said, given the potential scope of this issue (years of affected CPUs, massive PR hit) I'm hoping that Intel will at least offer some remedy to recent buyers. According to the article from The Register [1], OS vendors have been working on the fix since November. The blog posted over on pythonsweetness [2] posits the bug may have been identified in October. It'd be interesting to know for how long Intel has been selling Coffee Lake CPUs that are known to be vulnerable. [1] https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/02/intel_cpu_design_flaw/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/02/intel_cpu_design_fl... [2] http://pythonsweetness.tumblr.com/post/169166980422/the-mysterious-case-of-the-linux-page-table http://pythonsweetness.tumblr.com/post/169166980422/the-myst...
  - mehrdadn 9y ago
    Thanks for posting this! It seems self-contradictory to me. How can Intel warrant that > the Product will substantially conform to Intel’s publicly available specifications while simultaneously disclaiming warranty for > design defects or errors in the Product (Errata) ? If an instruction does something different than what their specs say on occasion, do they take that to mean it's substantially conforming to their specs?
    - ta_wh 9y ago
      I'm no lawyer, but my instincts tell me someone would have to prove that the chips today do not conform to Intel's specs, and that this difference is such that the CPU no longer "substantially conforms" to the spec. > If an instruction does something different than what their specs say on occasion, do they take that to mean it's substantially conforming to their specs? We're on the same page. What do you think Intel will argue? Keep in mind Intel did initiate a substantial recall of Pentium CPUs in the late 90s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_FDIV_bug https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_FDIV_bug
      - mehrdadn 9y ago
        I mean they would likely argue it's still substantially conforming even if it has bugs that come up, but I'm trying to figure out what kind of a case they could actually win.
        blattimwind 9y ago
        Why try to win a case if all you need is a settlement? Going into an actual trial is far riskier than negotiating a settlement, for both sides.
    - m_eiman 9y ago
      What they're saying is that they'll replace your chip if it behaves differently from all the other chips of the same model, not if ALL the chips are broken by design.
      - mehrdadn 9y ago
        Where does their sentence about the specification come into play in your interpretation?
        m_eiman 9y ago
        "the Product will substantially conform to Intel’s publicly available specifications" They're saying that it should work as specified for the most part. And apparently the CPUs do, since they've been in continuous use for many years. Note that they also have this exception: "… THIS LIMITED WARRANTY DOES NOT COVER: … that the Product will protect against all possible security threats, including intentional misconduct by third parties;" Which is likely designed to handle issues just like this one.
TrickyRick 9y ago
Good luck explaining to a random vendor what the problem is though. They also need to verify that the problem exists and most of them won't have a clue what you're talking about, they'll just turn the computer on and notice that it's working. If you're a company buying from more qualified vendors then it might be a different story, however at that point consumer law does not apply to you.
- soziawa 9y ago
  Well depending on how this is turning out there will be benchmarks that show the chips performing slower than before. I've read that many chips will be getting 17% slower in the best case and up to 30% in the worst case. That could be enough to warrant a return of the product.
  - TrickyRick 9y ago
    Yes, however most computers are marketed using GHz numbers, not experienced performance (And in the cases where they are it's relative, like x times faster than before). It's hard to show a 17% slowdown to a store clerk. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for being able to return a product that's 17% slower today than yesterday, I'm just saying it might be difficult since it's an issue that requires a degree of technical knowledge to understand which most store clerks don't have.
    - maksimum 9y ago
      I agree with most of what you say, but why do you take for granted that it's up to the customer to demonstrate that the product is defective? Furthermore, where does the idea that the customer must be able to communicate this to a uninformed clerk come from?
amelius 9y ago
> Under EU law (this is not legal advice), any bug that wasn't known to you at time of sale, but was present at time of sale, has to be fixed by the vendor. Is this true for software as well?
- kuschku 9y ago
  The law applies to any sale between a consumer and a company, even one for free. It does also apply to software, but software vendors will rather refund you than fix it.
  - ckastner 9y ago
    > The law applies to any sale between a consumer and a company, even one for free. There is no such thing as a free sale, and no, when you are gifted something, then you don't get the EU warranty protection.
    - Macha 9y ago
      I think it's more referring to offers like these: * Buy One Get One Free * Free USB-C to A hub with your new Macbook Pro I would expect the free item to be covered in these cases?
ckastner 9y ago
> any bug that wasn't known to you at time of sale, but was present at time of sale, has to be fixed by the vendor Unfortunately, this is incorrect on many levels. First, under EU warranty laws, it's not any bug that is covered, but defects that have been assured or are expected to not be present. I'd expect disclaimers to allow for certain errata, for example. EDIT: user ta_wh posted an example for such a disclaimer in a sibling comment. Second, the vendor is usually not the manufacturer, and therefore seldom in the position to fix the defect themselves. Third, depending on the nature of the defect, the vendor might have other options besides fixing it/getting it fixed, eg: discount, or returns.

mehrdadn 9y ago

Ahh, I was referring to the US, and bugs that weren't known at the time of sale (I'll edit this in), but thank you, this is still useful information.

ta_wh 9y ago
See the three-year warranty here for boxed CPUs: https://www.intel.com/content/dam/support/us/en/documents/processors/Limited_Warranty_8.5x11_for_Web_English.pdf https://www.intel.com/content/dam/support/us/en/documents/pr... Note the first bullet under "WHAT THIS LIMITED WARRANTY DOES NOT COVER": "design defects or errors in the Product (Errata). Contact Intel for information on characterized errata." Guess we're not covered on this one. EDIT: That being said, given the potential scope of this issue (years of affected CPUs, massive PR hit) I'm hoping that Intel will at least offer some remedy to recent buyers. According to the article from The Register [1], OS vendors have been working on the fix since November. The blog posted over on pythonsweetness [2] posits the bug may have been identified in October. It'd be interesting to know for how long Intel has been selling Coffee Lake CPUs that are known to be vulnerable. [1] https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/02/intel_cpu_design_flaw/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/02/intel_cpu_design_fl... [2] http://pythonsweetness.tumblr.com/post/169166980422/the-mysterious-case-of-the-linux-page-table http://pythonsweetness.tumblr.com/post/169166980422/the-myst...
- mehrdadn 9y ago
  Thanks for posting this! It seems self-contradictory to me. How can Intel warrant that > the Product will substantially conform to Intel’s publicly available specifications while simultaneously disclaiming warranty for > design defects or errors in the Product (Errata) ? If an instruction does something different than what their specs say on occasion, do they take that to mean it's substantially conforming to their specs?
  - ta_wh 9y ago
    I'm no lawyer, but my instincts tell me someone would have to prove that the chips today do not conform to Intel's specs, and that this difference is such that the CPU no longer "substantially conforms" to the spec. > If an instruction does something different than what their specs say on occasion, do they take that to mean it's substantially conforming to their specs? We're on the same page. What do you think Intel will argue? Keep in mind Intel did initiate a substantial recall of Pentium CPUs in the late 90s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_FDIV_bug https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_FDIV_bug
    - mehrdadn 9y ago
      I mean they would likely argue it's still substantially conforming even if it has bugs that come up, but I'm trying to figure out what kind of a case they could actually win.
      - blattimwind 9y ago
        Why try to win a case if all you need is a settlement? Going into an actual trial is far riskier than negotiating a settlement, for both sides.
  - m_eiman 9y ago
    What they're saying is that they'll replace your chip if it behaves differently from all the other chips of the same model, not if ALL the chips are broken by design.
    - mehrdadn 9y ago
      Where does their sentence about the specification come into play in your interpretation?
      - m_eiman 9y ago
        "the Product will substantially conform to Intel’s publicly available specifications" They're saying that it should work as specified for the most part. And apparently the CPUs do, since they've been in continuous use for many years. Note that they also have this exception: "… THIS LIMITED WARRANTY DOES NOT COVER: … that the Product will protect against all possible security threats, including intentional misconduct by third parties;" Which is likely designed to handle issues just like this one.

TrickyRick 9y ago

Good luck explaining to a random vendor what the problem is though. They also need to verify that the problem exists and most of them won't have a clue what you're talking about, they'll just turn the computer on and notice that it's working. If you're a company buying from more qualified vendors then it might be a different story, however at that point consumer law does not apply to you.

soziawa 9y ago
Well depending on how this is turning out there will be benchmarks that show the chips performing slower than before. I've read that many chips will be getting 17% slower in the best case and up to 30% in the worst case. That could be enough to warrant a return of the product.
- TrickyRick 9y ago
  Yes, however most computers are marketed using GHz numbers, not experienced performance (And in the cases where they are it's relative, like x times faster than before). It's hard to show a 17% slowdown to a store clerk. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for being able to return a product that's 17% slower today than yesterday, I'm just saying it might be difficult since it's an issue that requires a degree of technical knowledge to understand which most store clerks don't have.
  - maksimum 9y ago
    I agree with most of what you say, but why do you take for granted that it's up to the customer to demonstrate that the product is defective? Furthermore, where does the idea that the customer must be able to communicate this to a uninformed clerk come from?

amelius 9y ago

> Under EU law (this is not legal advice), any bug that wasn't known to you at time of sale, but was present at time of sale, has to be fixed by the vendor. Is this true for software as well?

kuschku 9y ago
The law applies to any sale between a consumer and a company, even one for free. It does also apply to software, but software vendors will rather refund you than fix it.
- ckastner 9y ago
  > The law applies to any sale between a consumer and a company, even one for free. There is no such thing as a free sale, and no, when you are gifted something, then you don't get the EU warranty protection.
  - Macha 9y ago
    I think it's more referring to offers like these: * Buy One Get One Free * Free USB-C to A hub with your new Macbook Pro I would expect the free item to be covered in these cases?

ckastner 9y ago

> any bug that wasn't known to you at time of sale, but was present at time of sale, has to be fixed by the vendor Unfortunately, this is incorrect on many levels. First, under EU warranty laws, it's not any bug that is covered, but defects that have been assured or are expected to not be present. I'd expect disclaimers to allow for certain errata, for example. EDIT: user ta_wh posted an example for such a disclaimer in a sibling comment. Second, the vendor is usually not the manufacturer, and therefore seldom in the position to fix the defect themselves. Third, depending on the nature of the defect, the vendor might have other options besides fixing it/getting it fixed, eg: discount, or returns.