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Silicon Valley's Secretive, Orgiastic Side
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- itronitron 9y agoI expect that a majority of people would be very uncomfortable at one of these work-related parties. Beyond the man/woman power asymmetry there are a lot of other groups of people that would exclude themselves from these events, but that may be the point.
- gdilla 9y agoNot shocking at all - follows a pattern we've seen before on wallstreet and anywhere else men think they're amazing cuz they're rich. It's just cute that SV has the lifestyle choice spin on it.
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- trisimix 9y agoCant wait for the work of silicon valley movie
- crmd 9y agoI'm trying to imagine a cringier situation than a druggy sex party full of industry people. Try chilling with artists, musicians, chefs, teachers, dog walkers, anything but tech people. The mutual discovery of each other's worlds is really hot, and it minimizes the chance of ever being in a work meeting with someone where we need to pretend we haven't seen each other naked.
- mruniverse 9y agoArtists are very cringy. A lot of musicians are cringy. Some teachers are cringy. Not sure about chefs or dog walkers.
- tomcam 9y agoAlso cringey
- forgottenpass 9y agoAt least they wouldn't have to "pretend [they] haven't seen each other naked." After all, what well-adjusted adult would consider it a normal hum-drum part of life to interact with previous sexual partners in work situations? /s
- mruniverse 9y agomusicians
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- walshemj 9y agochefs tend to be a bit on edge and drug use is rife as is extreme bullying.
- stcredzero 9y agoMy experience with chefs: Lots of fun to party with. Terrible neighbors. In general, do not date, or at least be cautious. (Based on a low sample size.) Dog walkers: Can be lots of fun to party with. Terrible band mates. In general, do not date, or at least be cautious. (Based on a low sample size.)
- dsfyu404ed 9y ago>I'm trying to imagine a cringier situation than a druggy sex party full of industry people If you hang around investment bankers long enough you'll hear some stories.
- nickthemagicman 9y ago“I see a lot of men leading people on, sleeping with a dozen women at the same time. But if each of the dozen women doesn’t care, is there any crime committed? You could say it’s disgusting but not illegal—it just perpetuates a culture that keeps women down.” How does it keep women down? Sleeping with a guy is a built in option women have to better their lives, that men don't have. Otherwise they're just like the rest of us poor schmuck dudes that actually have to go into work everyday. I'm so confused about what women expect these days.
- philipodonnell 9y agoIt's easy to see it this way, but unfortunately it doesn't work like this in practice. "Something you can pay with" and "something you're expected to pay with or you're out" can describe the same asset, but are much more driven by the relative power of the person being paid. We tend to honor the former (as you do) until it becomes the latter (as it mostly seems actually is when it's allowed).
- xg15 9y agoI'm sure there are enough gay or bi VCs that would give men a chance as well, if they'd just ask the right way. So you, too, can use that option to better your life. Feel free to try!
- nickthemagicman 9y agoI agree! It happens alot I'm sure! I'm just not a hot gay guy so it STILL doesn't apply to me.
- MollyR 9y agoWomen aren't a homogeneous subgroup. Your phrasing is also offensive, but I've dealt with many neuro-atypicals so I'm sympathetic . I suspect you are asking what is the social contract expectation from women ? In this period of deep social unrest, I don't think people could give a unified answer.
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- jenkstom 9y agoI think there is a certain amount of denial about male sexuality. It's like trying to change the fundamental personality traits of a child: it won't work and will probably result in someone who is antisocial or otherwise crazy. I don't know why we can't have a discussion about this. Possibly feminism is caught up in a narrative that is overly female-centric, which isn't really unexpected (or entirely unreasonable). But just as feminism is reactionary to abuse by males, there are going to be reactionary elements to the desire of some feminists to suppress men in general. If you think that isn't true, do a google images search for "feminist tshirts", the sixth one is a woman kneeing a man in the testicles. A simple image search on feminism points out just how much anger there is on all sides of the argument.
- astura 9y agoThere's no such thing as "the sixth Google result," everyones Google results are different depending on your location, language settings, search history, browsing habits, and probably a million different variables. I just scrolled through many, many pages of Google image search results both from my phone and my work computer and didn't come across anything negative, the only thing cringy I saw was "the future is female." In fact, one of the first 10 results I got was "pro-women is not anti-men." The other question is what site did this image come from? Was is some toxic red pill fringe site that created it for the purpose of "proving" the "feminists agenda" or an actual mainstream feminist site selling actual real life tshirts to people who actually identity as feminist for the purpose of wearing? A single unqualified Google image search results doesn't tell you anything of any value. I think you show more about your search history and browsing habits than anything about the feminist movement or the average person's feelings on the matter. If you go seeking "them wimen folk are out to get me" crap Google is going to show you more of it.
- drchap 9y agoI did the same search in an incognito window. Woman kneeing a man in the groin was the fourth result. Maybe your results show more about your search history and browsing habits than anything about the feminist movement or the average person's feelings on the matter.
- robofd 9y agoOne question I have as a recent grad who moved to Silicon Valley to work in tech is how do I get invited to one of these parties. Setting aside all the social implications, they sound really fun.
- MollyR 9y agoSame way as the finance industry, be wealthy ,connected, or powerful. Those parties and connections are not for normal people, more like 1%.
- astura 9y agoBe an attractive female with the right connections or be a powerful male with the right connections.
- Pica_soO 9y agoI call this power discrimination. I demand equal treatment of all men by the oppossum sex.
- dang 9y agoIf you continue to post unsubstantive comments to HN we will ban you.
- robofd 9y agoYikes. I can piece myself as a combination of the two, but don't belong to either category separately. Just trying to have fun..
- cityhall 9y agoGo to Burning Man or find the crowd that does.
- halbritt 9y agoThis, basically. The kinds of parties being described aren't all that unusual for the bay area. It's certainly not isolated to tech. Meet interesting people, network. You'll figure it out eventually.
- justinzollars 9y ago"Molly tablets that have been molded into the logos of some of the hottest tech companies" I'm going to call bullshit.
- throwawaymamba 9y agoThey are real. I've seen Netflix, UPS, Teslas in the wild
- cryptoHash 9y agowe have your ip address.
- traek 9y agoThis is pretty common for MDMA pressed pills. They’re referred to by the logo, e.g. “orange teslas” or “purple instagrams”. See [1] for photos of pills with the Instagram logo. [1] http://pill.report/index.php?page=search_reports&sent=1&name=instagram&logo=&colour=®ion=all&percent_rating=0&pp=10&submit.x=0&submit.y=0 http://pill.report/index.php?page=search_reports&sent=1&name...
- dbattaglia 9y agoLogos on "e" pills were pretty common back in the day (the 90s). Stuff like the Nike "swoosh", Pokemon, etc. So it's probably not that far fetched.
- lbotos 9y agohttps://www.ecstasydata.org/results.php?start=0&search_field=all&s=facebook https://www.ecstasydata.org/results.php?start=0&search_field... Here, take a look.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- guacamoleSoda 9y agoThis sounds like something out of Eyes Wide Shut, but with social awkwardness, baggy dad jeans, and crocs and socks. I can't imagine this is emotionally healthy for most of the folks involved. The once socially-exiled men trading wealth and drugs and (implicit) promises of career advancement for sex. The women who hope to leverage their looks for access to a better life, but risk ruining their reputations due to societal double standards. Being aware of these facts, would either party feel good about the encounters? Orgies are fine. I've never been to one and have no desire to go to one. The real issue here is the power-asymmetry between the men and women involved. It reminds me of someone like Harvey Weinstein inviting an aspiring actress up to his hotel room and making an advance. It puts the women in a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't situation. Just extending the invitation itself can be vaguely threatening to a lot of people.
- smrtinsert 9y agoSome nerd types buy into the "I'm finally inheriting the earth" bullshit. A lot of them are very normal people and just love tech talk, but I've heard stories from a few C levels about goings on. I'm not surprised it's bigger than I thought. The more we change the more we stay the same.
- webkike 9y ago> Orgies are fine. I've never been to one and have no desire to go to one. The real issue here is the power-asymmetry between the men and women involved. Very true. I feel that if these people were really in the business to live out their kinks they would be a hell of a lot more explicit and safe about these things. As far as I can tell none of these people would explicitly refer to any of these parties as an Orgy in the invite, leaving me to believe they are ashamed of the inherent sexism in the actions they are performing.
- forgottenpass 9y ago>none of these people would explicitly refer to any of these parties as an Orgy in the invite, leaving me to believe they are ashamed of the inherent sexism in the actions they are performing. Or they're ashamed about living in a wider society that isn't fully accepting of the practice. Be careful with that brush you're painting with. There are plenty of now-accepted lifestyles that previously got the exact same treatment. "They act that way because they know they're wrong!" often turns to "Oh, they acted that way because the rest of us were assholes about it."
- tareqak 9y agoOriginal title: “Oh My God, This Is So F---ed Up”: Inside Silicon Valley’s Secretive, Orgiastic Dark Side Techmeme summary: Emily Chang / Vanity Fair: An excerpt from Emily Chang's upcoming book Brotopia, on Silicon Valley's drug-fueled sex parties attended by powerful investors and well-known entrepreneurs Could those who downvote this comment please explain why you did so? I try to provide extra context for those who come across this submission, which I get from Techmeme.
- dang 9y agoPlease don't do this. It's mechanical and detracts from good conversation, which is the purpose of the threads. I realize you're trying to help, but this is one of those areas where the help isn't helpful. It's closer to a single-purpose account, which we don't allow here. Community members should engage each other as human beings, not abstractions.
- tareqak 9y agoI understand. However, a lot of the time article titles are brief and/or misleading and/or click bait, but the article itself is insightful. I don't want to make the call for editorializing a title myself since I'm not a journalist, and I don't want project any bias I may or may not have. Frankly, I only do this because the Techmeme summary is anecdotally superior to the original article's title, but HN's character limit for the title is too short. Since you have asked me to stop, I will do so, but do please keep in mind that I only did so because: 1) the limitations on the character count are on the HN side 2) I wanted work around that character count to give insightful, intellectually-stimulating, yet poorly-titled articles their chance to shine. Thank you for taking the time to read my reply,
- petercooper 9y agoI think you're right, and often notice titles degrading throughout the day as they get edited into bland nothingness, but comments probably aren't going to help since it's the title on the front page that gets people clicking. Now if you had a browser extension that could display the Techmeme/similar headlines alongside, I'd be interested in that :-D
- nickthemagicman 9y agoThere's a power asymmetry between white men in silicon valley and black/latin men. But (most) black/latin men don't have the option to participate in a silicon valley orgy to better their career. They have to schlep it out like the rest of us average schmoes. So in my mind this is an article about women getting an unfair advantage over the rest of us.
- dang 9y agoThe gender-baiting you've indulged in in this thread is off the scale. And even race-baiting too. Please stop now. Unfortunately, to judge by the number of moderation warnings we've had to give you in the past, you have a long history of breaking the HN guidelines. That's a problem and if you don't correct it you'll get banned sooner or later. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and correct it.
- nickthemagicman 9y agoTheres no baiting going on at all. Male/Female relations in the workplace is a pertinent topic...but if you don't want differing opinions on the subject thats fine. Ill stick to the "women are repressed" narrative from here on out. Thank you for correcting my faulty thoughts.
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- ImSkeptical 9y agoThis article makes me wonder, what, exactly, is wrong and what is supposed to be done about this. I get that it seems exploitative and probably does have consequences for social attitudes at work, but what I don't understand is what's to be done about this? Surely there's nothing (drug use aside) that's legally actionable about this. The encounters seemed consensual in the sense that the women weren't threatened or forced and were told about what the drugs offered would do. If there's not any legal wrong doing then is it social misconduct? Somehow it feels wrong for me to judge or condemn adults for their sexual conduct - even if it seems cheap, transactional, and gross to me. I understand different people have different values and preferences, so why should I apply mine to them? Furthermore, I can't imagine that finger wagging from the likes of Vanity Fair is going to make these rich young men give up on their drug fueled sex parties. It's an interesting article, even though the author is decidedly biased and at times intentionally misleading (e.g. when she scorns the idea that there are some/many women interested in taking advantage of men, in the middle of an article about rich nerds finding themselves suddenly with a surfeit of women). I don't understand what is supposed to be done about this though or even if something should be aside from educating young women about the tradeoffs they may make in these environments.
- tathougies 9y agoThe entire article was on how these interactions are facilitated by the intentional use of illegal, mind-altering drugs. Aside from the obvious fact that the drugs are illegal, there is also the question of whether those who are under the influence of these drugs can consent to sex.
- ImSkeptical 9y agoI think if you consent to go to the sex party, you consent to physical romantic activity, you consent to taking the drug knowing your context and what the drug will do, and then you consent to sex throughout the experience, it's hard to see how it's anything but consensual. If you have a colonoscopy done, the medication they give you will make it so you don't remember things or (I hope) feel things, but, my doctor told me, you will still respond to instructions like "roll on your side" etc. If I consent to go to the doctor's office, and have the IV after it's explained to me what the drug does, and then they give me the drug and I have the procedure, am I consenting to the procedure even though I'm very much impaired during the process? I'd say so.
- tzs 9y agoSo...a Silicon Valley version of a Hellfire club [1]? What's the deal with that hot tub party photo from 1996? In particular what is supporting the laptop? It appears to be right on the surface of the water, which would be a ridiculous way to try to use it, as any ripples or waves would get it wet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club
- sargun 9y agoCould be a Toughbook, although doubt it. Introduced in '96: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toughbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toughbook
- jibberia 9y agoI think the dark-haired guy's left hand is holding the laptop, with his elbow in the water. Or maybe it's the blonde's left hand. I wonder what software he's showing off!
- JamieBeckett 9y agoYuck. I felt slimy after reading this article. What female would participate in this?
- ocdtrekkie 9y agoOne trying desperately to survive in a male-dominated industry in a geographic area where failure means you join their ever increasing homeless population, I imagine.
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- jpzisme 9y agoWhat's up with all these sensational articles about Silicon Valley? Maybe the lifestyle is different as a VC, but as an engineer, this seems so disjointed from reality that it's almost farcical. I can barely get some of my coworkers to stop talking about code for more than a breath. There's no way that they're engaging in any of these activities. Can anyone vouch for this behavior being prevalent? To me it just seems like a result of psychology where people think that others have more interesting/fulfilled social lives than they do despite it not being actually true, but maybe I live under a rock. Furthermore, there are a ton of small VCs and startups in the valley. Of course a small percentage will do sketchy stuff. This is true everywhere and would really only be a problem if it was widespread or common amongst the major players and served as a meaningful barrier to entry. The only firm mentioned by name, Binary Capital, looks like a two or a one person shop, and I assume doesn't have much market power.
- sushisource 9y agoAs totally skeezy as it sounds, I have a hard time believing you're really "shut out" of the VC/startup scene if you don't attend like the article says. Agreed that it seems totally out-of-phase with my understanding of reality
- umeshunni 9y agoPutting silicon valley in the title == free clicks for an otherwise inconsequential article / book.
- dang 9y agoI agree with you that SV in titles has largely become linkbait but in this case it seems reasonably accurate. We're pretty careful to take linkbait out of titles on HN, but beyond the gratuitous "Inside" I didn't see a lot. I suppose we could s/dark side/side/ as well.
- dekhn 9y agoSo, 4 prominent people who attended the party (including one woman who stayed until 5AM), have attached their personal names to statements saying this article's claims are fantastical. Combined with the fact that nearly all the claims are anonymously sourced, I don't see how you could claim it seems reasonably accurate, unless you are experiencing confirmation bias (which is what I think happened here).
- Apocryphon 9y agoWall Street, Hollywood, Silicon Valley... are there any other high-rolling industry hubs out there that don't have a decadent underbelly? Maybe Motor City in its heyday.
- AndrewKemendo 9y agoIt's not just high-rolling ones. Over the last few years I've been involved in the furniture and construction industries and their "decadent underbellies" are just as bad if not worse than what I've seen in tech, finance and elsewhere. According to many insiders I know in the concrete world, they have the most insane industry parties. Carpeting is pretty crazy too from what I've seen. It's not unique to any industry.
- walshemj 9y agoChemical engines have a rep for really hard drinking as do civils I have heard (at a top 5 consultancy) a discussion of the best computer cleaning fluids to make hooch with.
- Apocryphon 9y agoA lot of professions are associated with drinking, it's not the same as hedonistic decadence delivered by dumb money
- Apocryphon 9y agoWhat cities are these interior home magnates based in?!?
- AndrewKemendo 9y agoAll over but the parties are in North Carolina, Florida and Vegas mostly.
- notacoward 9y ago> Maybe Motor City in its heyday. Ultimate levels of NOPE.
- blueyes 9y agoThis is a nothing burger of an article. It's about consensual drug use and sex among adults. It happens to involve rich and powerful people who (gasp) can throw these kinds of parties. In any unequal society, there will be people who are willing to trade sex for financial security or access to power, with others who are seeking sex. It would be deeply naive to think otherwise. The outrage here strikes me as hollow.
- dang 9y agoI don't think that's quite fair. The article reads to me like a good-faith attempt to explore some less obvious aspects of these dynamics. It doesn't arrive at new or substantive conclusions, but just standing in the neighborhood of these questions while keeping an open mind is worth something while society is in transition about them. The article also manages to stay more neutral and non-judgmental than the lurid material would easily allow, and that deserves respect too. Overall, it's better than the median for the genre.
- blueyes 9y agoYou're right, I should have toned down the first sentence a little bit. I hope that young women working in Silicon Valley will read this article and make better decisions for themselves. Each new generation has to learn the ways of the world all over again. But some of them will read this article and make exactly the same decisions, because there are reasons why these parties are thrown and why people, with their eyes open, attend. What I was trying to say was: The article is overblown in its tone, and that's important for reasons I'll get to at the end. There are other, much worse things going on in the world, some of which Emily Chang has admirably broken as news.[1] It probably would have worked better if the orgy angle had been woven into a chapter of The Circle. I don't find much in it that surprises me. And given its lack of concrete details, it doesn't strike me as particularly newsworthy. I try to read things that I hope will surprise me and that I might learn from. This book chapter tells me that rich, powerful people behave in Silicon Valley much as they do in other parts of the world (Wall Street, for example), and much as they have done in other times (the Marquis de Sade's books are one example among many). Personally, I don't find the article to be neutral or non-judgmental. Quite the opposite. It is part of a book titled "Brotopia", and it advances a thesis that Silicon Valley is dominated by emotionally immature or egotistical men who use their relative wealth and power to prey on young women. These sex parties are cast as part of a gender war with two sides: straight males vs straight females. That's a vast oversimplification, making a lot of noise about a very small sample of the humans who constitute the tech community. The only reason why this doesn't fall into the cateogory of "things we can assume happen weekly" is that it's Silicon Valley. I could name at least one powerful lesbian in tech who left her wife to shack up with a female employee. I'm quite positive that some gay men in tech find opportunities to prey on male interns just as much as the revanchist straight male geeks in the article manage to live out their adolescent fantasies by acting like players. But neither of those fit the direction of Emily Chang's outrage (which is also the dominant direction of outrage in liberal circles). That tells me either that Chang is not reporting this story as diligently as she could, or that she's ignoring significant information to advance a point in this debate. The villain's role has been cast. Emily Chang is a professional journalist, and she knows how to maintain a journalist's neutral tone while letting her sources drive home her point. If you look at the most emotionally powerful quotes (take that of Elisabeth Sheff, for example [2]) or language like "sport fucking", you can tell which side Chang is on. She's portraying the males here as powerful, predatory and ridiculous all at once: "Furthermore, these elite founders, C.E.O.’s, and V.C.’s see themselves as more influential than most hot-shit bankers, actors, and athletes will ever be." All the voices in the piece are Chang's, because she selected them to tell this story, which is a very particular story out of all the threads she could pick. And those voices land heavily in the judging camp. She lets Founder X make a fool of himself between double quotes, just as she did with Tom Perkins. Is Founder X a fool? Probably. Is he typical of male entrepreneurs? Not in my experience. Did he think he was speaking to a sympathetic ear? Probably. That's how journalists get people to say embarrassing things. They use their sources, just like their sources use them to gain publicity. Just like the men and women at these orgies are using each other. And that's a fundamental part of human interactions that she sounds really judgey about.[3] My chief concern is that this article is part of a prurient and puritanical movement to police sexuality in America, a movement that has gone far beyond condemning acts of coercion or workplace sexual harassment (both of which I, too, condemn), and drifted into condemning the gray area of fluid power dynamics juxtaposed with consent. Masha Gessen has talked about it more articulately than I can: https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/when-does-a-watershed-become-a-sex-panic https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/when-does-a-wa... https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/sex-consent-dangers-of-misplaced-scale https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/sex-consent-da... If we become too easily outraged and rigid in the way we judge sexual behavior publicly, we will simply become a society of hypocrites and rule breakers who can't talk about or understand real humans. A lot of things already can't be discussed calmly -- eppur si muove, as the man said. Good journalism pushes us to look at things in new ways that deepen our understanding of the world. This article didn't do that for me. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-01/uber-investor-shervin-pishevar-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-by-multiple-women https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-01/uber-inve... [2] “That’s exploitation. That’s old-school, fucked-up masculine arrogance and borderline prostitution,” she said. “The men don’t have to prostitute themselves, because they have the money. . . . ‘I should be able to have sex with a woman because I’m a rich guy.’ That is not even one particle progressive; that is the same tired bullshit. It’s trying to blend the new and keeping the old attitudes, and those old attitudes are based in patriarchy, so they come at the expense of women.” [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbN8jqDhHO8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbN8jqDhHO8
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- Sundog 9y agoI've been going to the wrong parties!
- guacamoleSoda 9y agoPreface: I spend a lot of this response talking about a hypothetical high-status man and a low-status woman. This isn't to be sexist or perpetuate stereotypes; it's just to use a common example that we've all probably seen and witnessed. Preface 2: this response was to someone else in this thread but it got pulled out to the top level for some reason. The intention of the article was, probably, just to shed light on the fact that this sort of stuff happens. It might not even be accurate. But, for the sake of argument, let's assume that it is. The author wasn't suggesting solutions. Why is it interesting to Vanity Fair readers? - It's about the glamorous lives of the 0.1%. - It's about sex. - It's about drugs. - A lot of these men are socially oblivious, so it provides material to laugh at otherwise powerful people. Who, in their right minds, sees a co-worker at a bondage-event and tells others at their workplace? And who, in their right minds, brings it up with said co-worker? - If what the article reports is true, the behaviour of some of the male participants could reasonably be interpreted as sexually predatory. It's the last point that's a bit troublesome. I think a lot of the men involved don't realize their behaviour is shitty. They flash wealth and reputation and make drunken suggestions like, which I've personally witnessed, "Oh, you're interested in starting a company... I could totally put you in touch with my friend who runs a VC firm. He's always looking for new investments. Hey, let's get another drink. You're super interesting. Oh, it's closing time. Wanna head back to my place, it's only a couple blocks away, and we could continue this conversation?" It's even worse if the dude talking has some sort of professional connection with the woman (e.g. introduction through co-worker or investor). It's not illegal but it's lousy. It's also reasonable for her to think that their might be some form of punishment for saying, 'no'. I think the lesson those sorts of guys could learn is that they're, at best, being manipulative and assholes. And the lesson targeted women can learn is that these guys probably aren't telling the truth and they should stick to mostly professional channels to get ahead (if that's their reason for engaging sexually with these men). Guys, if sex is your goal, I suggest the old-fashioned method. This isn't targeted at you, OP, but just a rhetorical bit aimed at the hypothetical male described in the article: - Work your way into a good job. - Be polite. - Be funny. - Work out. - Dress well. - Be financially responsible. - Have a drink or two, if that's your thing. - Don't be too flashy and avoid mentions of wealth or powerful connections. - Show genuine interest in the other party and her friends and family. - Be forward but not obnoxious about your intentions before sex (e.g. looking for sex, looking for a relationship, etc...). - Never lie. - Never EVER make promises or suggestions that you can help her career until you're well into a relationship. - If you genuinely believe in her and want to help her career, do so, but save any romantic or sexual advances until after you've helped and you can't renege what you've done. Be absolutely clear that she doesn't owe you anything. EDIT: - And never kiss and tell. It might win you a few bar-room points but it's frankly trashy and teenager-like behaviour. Romantic and sexual relationships involve two parties and are inherently intimate and you might be violating your partner's trust and reputation by divulging you've had sex or what the sex was like and so on. Even if your partner is okay with it, a lot of people don't find talking about your sexual conquests entertaining.
- weeksie 9y agoMy goodness, the pearl clutching sex panic is hilarious coming from Vanity Fair. Rich people have parties and they're fun because when you're rich you can afford good drugs and nice venues. News at 10.
- webkike 9y agoYou've missed the point. Orgies are fine. Drugs are fine (or at the very least your choice). There is however a huge contrast between smoking a bit of pot and going to an explicitly organized orgy with an enforced ratio and being fed MDMA and expensive presents by a CEO who wants to fuck you and your best friend.
- Bud 9y agoWhy is there a huge contrast, and how is this different from, well, basically all orgies we've heard about for decades now? Drug use is common at such events. The reported MDMA use is entirely consensual, so you are distorting things when you speak of someone being "being fed MDMA".
- justonepost 9y agowomen trading sex for gifts. Gasp. Say it aint so. Let's call pulitzer right now.
- webkike 9y agoTo take that attitude further, let's look at prostitution: Prostitution is fine morally. However, the manner in which it is currently conducted in most of the world is incredibly exploitative. e.g. pimps beating the shit out of the people they're supposed to protect.
- stcredzero 9y agoBureaucrats can suck, but they are a whole lot better to deal with than pimps!
- 9y ago
- dsfyu404ed 9y agoThis article is hilarious. It's like someone invited MADD to a weekend of beer fueled antics at a mud bog and this is their horrified blog post about how it went. People are crazy. People like to do drugs and have sex. Money adds fuel to the fire. Also, water is wet.
- peterwwillis 9y agoThis article munges swinging, kink, and nuveau-hippie sensuality events into one big pile and claims that rich techies are "marginalizing" women, because they can't claim the women are being abused, because they "happen" to be completely in control of themselves and their choices. This is white-knightism shrouded in the pseudo-scandal of sex, with a silicon valley cherry on top. This is a tired old journalistic trope. Take a secretive, not-socially-acceptable topic, and present it to the world, as if exposing some hidden evil lurking behind a corner. Sadly, the truth is a lot more boring than most people will ever realize. "Perhaps this culture is just one of the many offshoots of the sexually progressive Bay Area" This is a tiny example of what is happening all over the world, in addition to this country. Ignore that the topic's location is the literal epicenter of not only the sexual revolution, but gay liberation and the effective birthplace of hetero BDSM. These events happen _everywhere_. You can find them in North Dakota, in Alaska. This is not in any way new, or weird, or irregular. This is normal. It's not "socially acceptable", but it is normal. "It’s worth asking, however, if these sexual adventurers are so progressive, why do these parties seem to lean so heavily toward male-heterosexual fantasies?" Welcome to swinging culture, enjoy your cisheteropatriarchy. Again, nothing to do with Silicon Valley. The fact that there are men with lots of money throwing parties has nothing to do with tech. You'll find a different set of men [and women] throwing parties in DC, New York, LA, Paris, Rome, Madrid, Sao Paulo, etc. "The party scene is now so pervasive that women entrepreneurs say turning down invitations relegates them to the uncool-kids’ table." Oh no, peer pressure!!! We better make an after-school special for the women V.C.s. It's not news that wealthy men have been making deals in strip clubs and private parties for a long time, and breaking those barriers is not easy, but also not some mysterious invisible barrier. People in power should obviously not use these one-sided venues for business, but shaming or banning the events altogether doesn't seem like a healthy answer to this. "The problem is that weekend views of women as sex pawns and founder hounders can’t help but affect weekday views of women as colleagues, entrepreneurs, and peers." And I agree! But 'orgies' are not what are creating unfair societal expectations and marginalizing women. The real causes are slew of issues that start and end in everyday human activity. If you want to help marginalized women, help them where they are being marginalized every day! Not by shaming a generic amalgamation of parties that all happen to feature the lowering of inhibitions in ways that won't get you invited back to the church social. And by the way, writing an article about a bunch of people who cannot or will not give their names leaves no room for them to offer a rebuttal. This isn't journalism, this is an op-ed hit piece.
- iaw 9y agoThere's a lot in this article that raises red flags for me, but more about the journalism then the subject. There's an element of sensationalism implying that this is a 'side' of Silicon Valley without offering evidence of prevalence. > ... Founder X told me. The things here on the record are by those who aren't involved, those who are involved speaking on the record do so anonymously. It really seems less that this is a 'side' of Silicon Valley but more that there is a small number of people engaged in the activity. Further drawing into question the author's credibility... >Managing directors at top-tier investment banks may pocket a million a year and be worth tens of millions after a long career. Principals at mid-tier firms can make a couple million per year. A million dollar quarterly bonus for a fund manager isn't absurd. Henry Paulson took the Treasury Secretary job because it gave him a tax-free sale of his $500M worth of equities after being a Managing Director at Goldman Sachs. Those at VC funds may have more influence socially because they hold purse strings, but banking is the 'traditional' way to make too much money. I'm really having a hard time not thinking that the entire article is exaggerated.
- soundwave106 9y agoThat's my thought too. From my perspective, there seems to be some weird intermixing between various alternative cultures in this article. Some parts of the article reminded me of swinger culture. Some parts of the article reminded me more of MDMA oriented cultures. Burns and bondage clubs are briefly mentioned. Although there is some interplay between all these cultures, these cultures are in many other ways very separate from each other. MDMA, for instance, or other hallucinogenic / empathetic drugs really isn't found that much in a lot of swinger culture (or, for that matter, the majority of BDSM culture). All of the above alternative cultures tend to heavily emphasize consent, but they are also very frequently misinterpreted from the outside. If people are being forced and coerced into these types of parties by VC types as this article implies, that would be a bad thing indeed. But it also would very much be against the spirit of these cultures. From my perspective, the author seems to be combining several entirely different subcultures together here with an overfocus on the lurid, so I personally don't have a lot of confidence in the accuracy of this article.
- owens99 9y ago
- justonepost 9y agoThe only thing I found vaguely interesting about the article was the lack of male bisexuality. My guess is that the author was pursuing a very narrow group of people.
- moron4hire 9y agoI think, if you look hard enough in any city, you'll find just about anything, including sex dungeon parties. I knew some people who were not very secretive about it in Philadelphia, Baltimore, and DC. Those are the only cities I've lived in, so considering it's been 3-for-3 so far, I suspect it's pretty prevalent. The fact that in SV it's full of VCs is not surprising, as nowhere else would you find the density of VCs than in SV. I think the bigger question might be--in an age of safe sex and (ostensibly) loose morals--why isn't it more common?
- walshemj 9y agoYep its the CSI Freak of the week trophe.
- narrator 9y agoThe following seems to be what it's all about: " Rich men expecting casual sexual access to women is anything but a new paradigm. But many of the A-listers in Silicon Valley have something unique in common: a lonely adolescence devoid of contact with the opposite sex. Married V.C. described his teenage life as years of playing computer games and not going on a date until he was 20 years old. Now, to his amazement, he finds himself in a circle of trusted and adventurous tech friends with the money and resources to explore their every desire. After years of restriction and longing, he is living a fantasy, and his wife is right there along with him." If I may humblebrag for a moment, I had a really great sex life in the years before I got married when I was young and good-looking, so all this kind of stuff seems like a very risky and mildly pathetic way to create a lot of trouble in one's personal life. Young nerds, I implore you to have a really awesome time while you are young and good-looking so you make some great memories so you won't have to deal with all this regret and pathetic chasing around after a lost youth that these older guys engage in.
- ryandrake 9y agoYour advice is not actionable and kind of boils down to "just be good looking". If these "young nerds" had the opportunity to make great memories as awkward teenagers, why wouldn't they?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- oblib 9y agoTo me, the idea that one must participate in this "open" lifestyle to climb the ladder is bullshit. You either decide to go to the party and jump in the cuddle puddle, or not. But, no matter what you "think" you're doing, what you will find there is drama. Lot's of drama. Try as you might to keep that out, it is impossible to do that. It's human nature. The women who attend are every bit as calculating and self absorbed as the men who pay them to come, so I have no special sympathies for their plights that ensue from it. And the men are hardly immune themselves. I have no doubt that some of them have fallen deeply in love with a woman at one of those parties and spent many long hours crying in bed alone because the woman didn't give a single shit about them afterwards. Another thing that's bullshit is that this is a "progressive" lifestyle. It's a sex obsessed lifestyle. That too is a human nature that some cannot resist, but again, there's always drama down that path. And some who you'll find there thrive on that drama and constantly work at creating it and can cause you all kinds of stress with their bullshit. So, no, there's nothing "progressive" about it. That stuff is as old as civilization itself. Calling it "progressive" is putting lipstick on a very old pig. And finally, the entire “OH MY GOD, THIS IS SO F---ED UP” approach to paint this as an exposé is bullshit too. You can find the same thing going on in Branson, Missouri with plumbers and concrete finishers.
- nvahalik 9y agoI kept reading this and saying “when are they going to call this ‘swinging’?”
- cs702 9y agoThis is a sensationalist piece based on a really tiny amount of anecdotal evidence. I'm not upvoting it.
- 1024core 9y agoIf these parties are so widespread, how come no one has posted any actual photos from these parties? I'm sure there's some of this going on, but it can't be as widespread as claimed.
- zerostar07 9y ago> Many participants don’t seem the least bit embarrassed, much less ashamed. > And they believe that their entitlement to disrupt doesn’t stop at technology; it extends to society as well. Had not realized that emily chang was so conservative
- todd8 9y agoAt a Christmas party about 12 years ago I ran into a woman that I had been on a couple of dates with. Because she and a her girlfriend at the party were drinking I offered to drive them home. On the way home her girlfriend got a call, learned of a swingers party, and invited us to go with her. It was quite surprising for me. We didn't stay or participate, but I had no idea that such well attended parties were going on under my nose and overlapped to such a large degree with my social circle. (This wasn't in SV.)
- indescions_2018 9y agoA common refrain: practice X is packaged by its purveyors as the sine qua non of enlightened thinking and action. But ultimately, it is argued, ends up reinforcing the establishment status quo. Can be applied universally to everything from the gig economy to young blood infusions. In this context, however, I believe we are witnessing an unprecedented and radical redefinition of traditional monogamy in real-time. Naturally, social media plays a fundamental role in the re-thinking of modern monogamy. And one can't help but infer some connection between a platform and its creator's biases. At root is perhaps a philosophy born in the heyday of the Haight-Ashbury scene. Free Love. The idea that anyone can share intimacy with any one else. Without possessiveness. Without jealousy. Without betrayal. As long as there is explicit consent. It's not even a modern idea. Some elements are found in Plato's Republic. Fertility rites attended by the entire polis. Followed by newborns becoming wards of the state. To be raised with egalitarian love. And no parent showing any preference for their own offspring over another. But does it actually work in practice? Are we actually wired for pan-amory? Sex at Dawn: The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_at_Dawn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_at_Dawn
- olfactory 9y agoThis is a bit tangential but I wonder how the following classic psychological experiment would play out if participants were on MDMA, drunk, or aware of social status: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285214736_Deviance_in_the_dark https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285214736_Deviance_... Also, I wonder if in today's world (with more gender equality) if some of the female participants might actually not have wanted to be intimate.
- throwawaygoogol 9y agoOK, so this bothers me on a couple of levels. One, this strikes me as New York wagging its fingers at San Francisco, while bankers and media types have been having parties like this for ages, and it's taken with more or less a shrug. That said, though, it's also a bit slimy the ways that feminist polyamory and sex-positive community has been coopted as some sort of fig leaf for plain old money and power. The bankers never sought to justify themselves. I don't think that actually alters the basic morality one way or the other, but I have to say, I'm reminded of this scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkj6PhhhzDk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkj6PhhhzDk
- jMyles 9y agoThis article felt like a an "Unsolved Mysteries" narration to begin with, but this part really set off my BS sensors: > MDMA is a powerful and long-lasting drug whose one-two punch of euphoria and manic energy can keep you rolling for three or four hours. As dopamine fires, connections spark around the room, and normal inhibitions drop away. People start cuddling and making out. These aren’t group orgies, per se, but guests will break out into twosomes or threesomes or more. They may disappear into one of the venue’s many rooms, or they may simply get down in the open. Night turns to day, and the group reconvenes for breakfast, after which some may have intercourse again. Eat, drugs, sex, repeat. Listen, MDMA is great. But make people want to fuck it does not. In fact, it's damn near impossible to become seriously sexually aroused on MDMA. It promotes a much more fraternal feeling than a sexual one.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- orasis 9y agoThis article is a fascinating reflection of our current culture. It’s simultaneous power shaming and slut shaming. It’s pretty sad that across all of the women interviewed they’re either portrayed as naive and disempowered or “merely” prostitutes. Despite its semi-neutral tone, in the end this article is quite sexist.
- danso 9y agoIn American society, aren’t most orgiastic groups also secretive, in general?
- olivermarks 9y agoI'm trying to reconcile '60 shades of grey' selling 125 million copies globally so far and Vanity Fair/Emily Chang being so shocked about wealthy silicon valley swingers...
- norswap 9y agoSlavoj Zizek: > In racism, the other is not simply an enemy. His figure is also usually invested with some specific perverse enjoyment, or maybe he his someone who tries to steal our enjoyment from us.
- Top19 9y agoThis stuff goes on the most in San Francisco of any US city, but that still might be just a very small portion of the city I want to say. Love communes or any “orgy” related group have a long history in the US, going all the way back to the early 19-century in New York State. By the 1970’s, most free-love and BDSM communities were in California. All of them collapsed after some period of time, although a large portion of those failures were for simple economic reasons. Today, Nicole Daedone’s “OneTaste” group is probably the most famous, I guess you would say, “alternative love making” group in SF that very smartly combined meditation just as it was getting popular with mutual masturbation (less intimidating for people than sex). Tim Ferris wrote about them in his book “The Four Hour Body”. Also recently Neil Strauss’s book “The Truth” goes into detail on a lot of these communities. That book took place I think in 2014ish, and it seemed there were many bdsm, multi-partner, free-love groups in SF that were easy for him to find.
- dawhizkid 9y agoIs this really limited to just SV? This was one of the more eye opening articles I read last year -> https://jezebel.com/the-slutty-resurgence-of-new-yorks-underground-gay-sex-1800953101 https://jezebel.com/the-slutty-resurgence-of-new-yorks-under... Also I'll leave this here... https://www.yelp.com/biz/power-exchange-san-francisco-3 https://www.yelp.com/biz/power-exchange-san-francisco-3
- epx 9y agoThe HIVE header in article was a perfect predictor of the BS that came next.
- ThrowAway3456 9y agoare some comments being removed?
- ThrowAway3456 9y agoI like this answer even if i strongly disagree with it. Hopefully we can engage in a polite discussion where i can contribute the male centric counter-part of your perspective. >That technique may be used for women (and, heck, men too -- I'm the female 'breadwinner' of my household, although I didn't meet my husband at a sex party...) Yes some men, but those case are very rare and fare in between. I don't have any better analogy than saying that's like talking about female on male rape or white people being also subject to police violence when talking about black life matters. > to better their lives, but those gains may be sporadic, and they depend on the continued cooperation of the man they're sleeping with. But isn't that true for 99% of the working population ? My salary depend on my continue cooperation of my company i am working for. > Having a job, skills are easily transferable between employers, resources in my own name, and a relationship built on mutual respect and kindness, gives me far more freedom and security than sleeping with guys for the lifestyle perks. Is this true for any jobs ? Or are you describing the reality for you (what i presume being a conventionally beautiful ,upper middle class American woman)? Is that true for any man ? or just the one you dated ? > Now, I'm not saying women shouldn't go to these parties or sleep with these men if they want to, or that considering a man's private jet ownership when debating about whether or not you want to sleep with him is an immoral choice. Yes, but you are implying that having those choices is not a intrinsic privilege mostly associated with being a (conventionally beautiful) woman and that pointing this privilege is something of a simplification. I am born with a relatively high intelligence. It's also usually comes with high propensity to anxiety and depression and social awkwardness and as such my intelligence doesnt by me everything in life, but all in all it's still a nice privilege to have in 2017. I see female beauty the same. If had to point an overarching theme on you answer, is that you seems to compare the "gains" from the sexual options of being a woman with those of very power man. We can agree on this (although there is something to be said on comparing a man in his late 35 and the fruit of his labor with the life style of a 20-something, but that a discussion for another time). I don't think that's the fair comparison. What we need to look at : while you were being a "trophy girlfriend" , how did you life compare to you less desirable friends, and to your male friends around you? Beauty, like intelligence or any other intrinsic quality is an asset; It can be used wisely or not, it can be very valuable or not, but it's still an asset... > the two choices sound like equivalent things, when they're absolutely not. Which two choices ? > On a side note: The presence of these particular sex parties, and the fact that they're so closely intertwined with business in Silicon Valley, I think is an problem. As the article paints it, there's sort of a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" issue that they're introducing for women working in certain companies or who are seeking VC funding. I guess i can try to share the male perspective on this. It seems that there is wide belief that male sexuality is by nature predatory. Might be some truth to that and the news these days don't really help. But from anecdotal experience, and for having been to those type of parties. Trying to coerce women into coming to those type of party is always plan B. Plan A is always to find open minded women with common interest. And much in the same way that height and muscular bodies are attractive to certain women, money,weath and power is attractive to enough women that plan A i usually all one needs...
- eternalcode 9y agoThis is all real. I’ve been to some of the parties she mentioned. I hope that people read Brotopia and see that what Emily Chang is deriding isn’t Burning Man, renegades, or the like. It’s how a predatory part of the startup population exploits these kinds of environments to use and hurt people. I’ve gotten a lot of questions recently why I sort of dropped off the radar a few years ago in going to a lot of VC/founder rage scene. This is a big part of why. I don’t want me or the people I care about to be exposed to this. And to be honest, I don’t know how to stop it.
- nunez 9y agoWell given that advertising, marketing and finance companies throw ragers like this somewhat on the reg, it doesn’t surprise me that folks at the top take it to 11.
- rearden 9y agoIt may not be a popular opinion, but why are these tech founders and VCs always judged and pointed at by reporters and such? I mean yeah, if they engage in illegal behaviour (sexual asssault) and stuff there should be punishment as with any other citizen. But in any other case, why don’t tech reporters focus on the tech? Rather than on the morals or sex lifes of the founders? It seems to me that founders are now under public scrutiny as if their company sold morals.
- uoaei 9y agoI think the crucial mistake most commenters/assessors on HN are making is in somehow equating SV with engineer and social introvert types. Of course those people aren't going to sex parties! But SV has over the years adopted the money-hungry, the investors and startup-flippers, as the core demographic by which it continues and grows. And these people are always in search of that next high. If that next high can be taboo and paid for with an exclusive amount of money, they'll be there. SV is no longer defined by its engineers. We see this in the hypergrowth cycles, in the "you can't engineer yourself out of a societal problem" phenomenon, in the fact that you can't get anywhere in SV without getting on your knees in front of a VC board.
- throwawayyyyyyo 9y agoI’m a Silicon Valley engineer/founder who attends “light” versions of this: basically mini Burning Man-esque parties among trusted groups of friends, where “orgiastic” behavior is present, but not expected. My only point is that not all similar events prominently feature the male/female power dynamic described in this article.
- adotjdotr 9y agoIn all honesty - why is this seen as such a bad thing. So many well off people engage in this sexualised fantasy behaviour who are monied / well off. I would expect a bit more from a Bloomberg presenter but then again superficiality is clearly what she needs to sell her book. This is honestly nothing new at all unless you're a prude