13 ms·
Well done. Personally, as a remote developer, I always make a point of billing at my "Bay Area Rate", even though I've never lived there. There was a point, ea
by jasonkester 9y ago
Well done. Personally, as a remote developer, I always make a point of billing at my "Bay Area Rate", even though I've never lived there.
There was a point, early in my guy-on-the-beach-with-a-laptop era where I would cut my bill rate in half while working from the beach with a laptop. Clients were happy about that, and it more than paid for beers and thatch huts. Then one time I tried not cutting my bill rate in half on a proposal. Nobody but me seemed to notice. So now I don't do that anymore.
As the article so nicely points put, the work you're doing is exactly the same regardless of where you do it from. Charge accordingly.
It's true that living costs are less in other places. It makes a lot more sense for that difference to be captured by me rather than somebody else's company.
Glad to see these guys stepping up and setting an example from the employer side.
- raverbashing 9y agoIs it just me that thinks working on the beach is awful? Too much light, sand, and heat to be able to concentrate Even if you're working in a coastal hut, nothing beats good ergonomics of a real office
- athenot 9y agoYes... mostly. Jealousy factor can't be beat. But beyond making your friends/acquaintances drool on social media, yes the ergonomics stink for classic development. However, I think variety is nice. Just like in an office situation, sometimes a breakthrough idea comes when sitting alone in an uncomfortable meeting room (and without secondary monitors). At home, I do some work on my back deck (partially remote worker here) but it's only when I'm in that mental place where I need to crawl out of a box and get a fresh look on things. It's also nice during meetings, so long as you prevent outdoor audio from distracting the conference call.
- bsaul 9y agoWorked in tel aviv for a few weeks in "remote work for a customer , from a nice environment". Here's your schedule : walk along the beach to go and pick up your breakfast, back to your place or stay at the terrasse for some work, then grab a sandwich at lunch, go for a swim. Work a few hours again, then swim before the sun goes down. It's a very addictive schedule. The only downside is that you'll be alone pretty much all day because not a lot of people can work like that.
- imhoguy 9y agoSite idea: nomads peering or dating :)
- matwood 9y agoNot all beaches are that hot and many have small pebbles instead of sand. Shade also does wonders. I find it relaxing and easier to concentrate. Probably related to how I stare out the window when thinking about a problem.
- Adam89 9y agoJason, how much did you increase your rate by in percent?
- jasonkester 9y agoWhen I doubled it? Think Google/Facebook total comp if you need a number to plug into your mental model. Software is a nice gig.
- mgc092 9y agoI guess 100% (doubling it), since he wrote that he was cutting it in half before
- tudorw 9y agohave you thought about a career in software development ?
- Double_a_92 9y agoI've always wondered what kind of development work you can do with a laptop chilling at the beach...
- jasonkester 9y agoImagine the work currently being done in a cubicle. Now remove the two external monitors and fill the bottom third of the cube with sand. That's pretty much the only difference. Lots of guys try dividing their bill rate by four, but as I said above, that's just personal preference. (And also diminshes the perceived value of what you do.)
- holdenc 9y agoIt goes like this -- as you are waiting for webpack to rebuild your modules, you gaze into the crystal blue water, see someone getting a massage for five bucks, and realize that you're the only one without a beer. Webpack finally finishes up, but you don't notice, and for good reason. Nothing else gets done the whole day.
- netsharc 9y agoHe's probably exaggerating, but I can see the allure of remote work. You may be working on a laptop in a cheap room in a hot country, but when 5PM comes, you'll be a few steps away from the surf. And depending on the client's timezone, you could start work later during the day...
- cpursley 9y agoNone, due to the glare and distractions. The real work gets done back at hotel/airbnb/coliving/coworking.
- Veen 9y agoThis was my experience. When I was a digital nomad my workdays were just spent in a variety of airbnbs instead of my home office. I did spend two weeks working on a beach in Cadiz, but I found that either I was too focused on the work to enjoy the beach or too focused on the surroundings to be productive.
- antonkm 9y agoHow much is your/the "Bay Area Rate"? Thinking about internationalization of my consultancy and have no real insight into hourly rates for devs in the US. Don't want to leave too much money on the table because I haven't done my research.
- czechdeveloper 9y agoEDIT: This comment was incorrect and I do not wish for more down votes. ORIGINAL: I believe it should be about 100 USD/hour for skilled consultant, but maybe someone with more experience can correct that.
- TomMarius 9y agoFor employment yes, consultant or contractor (which you probably will be if you're remote) can make double or more. 100 USD/hour is Prague, Czech Republic-level rate for a skilled consultant.
- dte22 9y agofor these rates, how long would the contract be?
- TomMarius 9y agoYou mean in Prague? I don't have experience (by choice) with projects that span more than a year. I prefer to do several short term projects (~3-6 months) at a time.
- dte22 9y agowow that's awesome. In Canada, I haven't seen the rates that high for Canadian companies.. I guess I am not looking hard enough!
- czechdeveloper 9y ago
- rplnt 9y ago> the work you're doing is exactly the same regardless of where you do it from But the "bay pay" isn't for your work. It's so you can work - i.e. cover your expenses associated with working at that particular place.
- Fredej 9y agoThey are willing to pay up to what the work is worth for them. The work is not worth more just because you happen to live in the bay area.
- rplnt 9y agoNo, you actually pay as little as possible to keep the employee happy and working for you. The living expenses move with this lower bound. More here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16051409 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16051409
- pc86 9y agoIn my experience employers often pay less than it takes to keep the employee happy and working. Most of the full-time jobs I've quit have been for pay and little else.
- nwatson 9y agoInteresting ... I've usually quit when I've been reasonably OK with the pay but the work no longer is interesting, the company culture changes, or I'm disturbed by the company's direction and don't think it will last. The switch has always translated to higher compensation as well.
- watwut 9y agoJanitors, receptionists nor cooks get such high salaries, altrough the place is the same.
- 9y ago
- flexie 9y agoBasecamp is selling all over the world. What should their salary level be like? Bay Area because that’s where a lot of the larger tech companies are situated? Washington State (Microsoft, Amazon)? Copenhagen (where one founder, DHH is from)? Sudney where one major competitor, Jira, is from? I’d say whatever the market is that they hire in. If you wanna pay above market rate, by all means do that. If you can attract employees in Chicago for less than Copenhagen or Bay Area salaries, then by all means, feel free to do that. Employees are free to leave. What I don’t see is why all companies should follow Bay Area salaries.
- xiphias 9y agoDHH goes deeply into the discussion about why they do it. It's worth for them as this way they can be very selective and keep the employees happy, also they don't have to think about changing jobs, and the company doesn't have to worry about good employees leaving. They basically treat people as not interchangable.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- CiPHPerCoder 9y agoPeople often tell me, "Yeah the Bay Area is expensive but the tech salaries make up for it." By being able to get a Bay Area salary (e.g. $150k/year) while working from anywhere in the world (e.g. any city where $40k/year is considered comfortable living and $80k/year is considered "well off"), the incentive to continue saturating the area with local talent decreases. Same salary, lower cost of living, AND the ability to be a homeowner in the foreseeable future? That's a hard deal to beat.
- pmorici 9y ago150k sounds way low for the Bay Area you can get that in other much less expensive metro areas.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- matchagaucho 9y agoI live in the SF Bay. My "onsite" day rate is much higher than my "remote" rate. All of my local clients accept a compromise; meet in-person once per sprint (every 2-4 weeks). Otherwise all work is done remotely. My remote employees and contractors are not required to commute or work onsite, therefore the remote rate applies. Kudos to Basecamp for committing to standard salary levels, but I believe geographic cost-of-living adjustments are more accurately assessed through periodic bonuses.
- akulbe 9y agoWhat kind of dev work are you doing? (if you don't mind my asking) How many employees/subs do you have?
- matchagaucho 9y agoCRM/ERP custom apps and systems integration. < 10 employees.
- sidlls 9y agoWhy should a bonus be dependent on cost of living?
- conanbatt 9y agoThe idea to match salary to cost of living is economically ridiculous, but I want to share a couple of personal experiences and ideas. > As the article so nicely points put, the work you're doing is exactly the same regardless of where you do it from. Charge accordingly. First of all, a remote employee is not worth the same as one in the office. For 2 engineers of the same capacity, any employer or coworker would rather have the engineer physically near than physically afar. How much that discount is extremely hard to guess, but there should be one in the general case. Also, being hired as a remote engineer from the get go is not the same commitment as being hired to be in the office. There is no personal or professional relationship yet. This means that being hired as a remote worker, you will generally be assigned remote work, and if they want collaborative, product and team roles, will hire someone to be in the office. The processes of hiring and working relationship are different. Now, to my personal experiences: I worked remotely my first few years, and then as an in-office employee for a couple of years to a SF startup. After that, I left the US and worked remotely for the same company for 2 years. There was a minimal adjustment to salary: and then I had the incentive to study the finances of what was going on. The company paid less payroll taxes, and I did not receive any benefits: no 401k matching, no free food, no snacking, no coffee expenditures, etc. The benefits lost my have compensated a chunk of the remote-ness productivity loss in the long run. But there was a cost to productivty and I could compare it solidly between my two periods: it took longer cycles to get some projects finished, and issues of importance sometimes had time-zone differences that made them more inconvenient to resolve. But then I also saw why talk about cost of living. Working in the same company, I had seldom talked about salary with co-workers (and my personal policy is to disclose mine immediately, even if they dont disclose theirs). But after turning remote I got asked about my salary by a considerable amount of people, even from ex-coworkers! I dont think people have a right to be upset about it, but they do feel upset about such a thing. They perceive it unfair, because the costs are there for them, and maybe their job or their manager wont allow them to be remote.
- tinbad 9y agoI don't agree with your premise of "remote workers being worth less (even if slightly) because there's less efficient collaboration". The last part is only true because most of today's organizations and processes are organized this way. Objectively, there's very little (outside of the individuals ability/willingness to work) that can't be optimized for remote work using modern technology. I've been working remote for many years now and even many large enterprises I have worked for recently have adopted tools needed for working remotely efficiently (easy video/chat/screen share, collaborative productivity tools etc.). At this point, my impression it's mostly mental barriers (managers!) that stall any progress in this area.
- foobarbazetc 9y agoBut your cost of living isn’t Bay Area cost of living. It makes no sense. This is a good way to ensure unhappy employees stick around due to being paid a lot more than what they’d earn otherwise.