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> So - the demonstrations following some police shootings aside, is there any significant push in the US to drive the police towards less lethal encounters with

by v64 9y ago

> So - the demonstrations following some police shootings aside, is there any significant push in the US to drive the police towards less lethal encounters with the public it is to serve and protect? I'm from the southern US, which is historically more conservative than the rest of the country. I'm not in any way claiming that the following viewpoints are universal and accepted in this region, but a large enough portion of the population holds these viewpoints, preventing further progress: 1) Anyone who gets shot by cops must have done something to warrant being shot. Even for people who get shot during traffic stops, that person did something to get pulled over in the first place. If they had a criminal record in the past, even if they didn't commit an offense during the situation where they were killed, there's a good chance they would have offended again, and this preemptive killing probably prevented a future crime. 2) In the case of this swatting incident, the blame lies 100% on the person who made the false police report. No false report, no shooting. The cop had reason to believe based on the report that the man who emerged from the door claimed to have a gun and had killed in the last hour, so it was plausible to believe he may try to retaliate and the appropriate force was used. No time for fact checking during an active shooter situation. "Shoot first, ask questions later" is considered an appropriate way for the police to deal with criminals. Obviously there are numerous refutations, and that isn't lost on people. Many people will justify it by saying that regardless of the circumstances, the police put their lives on the line every day, so that gives them a pass when they make mistakes. Many people would view your suggestions as weakening the police, and the militarization of US police is viewed by many as making us safer, not less safe.

JoeAltmaier 9y ago
Its a very different world if you're not white and live in the American South. Easy to believe the best, when you are relatively safe.
- jmaygarden 9y ago
  Police violence is a universal problem. A Harvard study has shown that white people in the US are statistically more likely encounter lethal force from police than people of color [1]. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/13/why-a-massive-new-study-on-police-shootings-of-whites-and-blacks-is-so-controversial/?utm_term=.f6ccfcf56d2d https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/13/why-a...
  - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
    In Houston. In a small study.
    - jmaygarden 9y ago
      That is true. I didn't mean to imply that white people somehow have it worse than minorities. That is not evidently the case with general police harassment and mistreatment. However, all races should be equally concerned with police executions. This isn't the land of Judge Dredd. We still have the 5th and 14th amendments.
davidcbc 9y ago
3) Anyone implying that the police need to change is labeled anti police by a large portion of the population because this has become a political issue in the US and given the current political climate of identity politics there is really no reasoning with those people.
- contravariant 9y ago
  >given the current political climate of identity politics there is really no reasoning with those people. Can I just point out the irony of saying there's no reasoning with 'those people' because of identity politics.
  - nitrogen 9y ago
    It's the symmetric property of identity inequality. The fundamentally incompatible axioms of some worldviews make communication nearly impossible in either direction, within a timeframe and level of effort most people are willing to expend.
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    Actually no, because 'those people' are the set of 'people who have chosen to label others as anti police' and a singular opinion isn't the same as a collective identity. Admittedly people who hold that opinion might adhere to a 'conservative identity' but the gp was specifically describing people who engaged in categorical dismissal of of political proposal, so it's legitimate to say they can't be reasoned with because categorical dismissals are an example of a genetic fallacy.
    - akvadrako 9y ago
      The wording implies you can't reason with "those people", meaning the anti-anti-police ones. But it kinda misses the mark, because you can't reason with "anybody" active in the identity-politics environment that pervades the US.
  - madeofpalk 9y ago
    Usually irony like this leads to a rediculous contradiction, but here it somehow all makes sense.
mmmBacon 9y ago
Sorry but almost all the blame is on the person who pulls the trigger. Swatting is possible because of police militarization. Frankly while the idiot who made the call certainly shares some responsibility, our police policies of shoot first and ask questions later are the problem. When police are trained to respond to citizens, even violent ones, like enemies in war, we get the outcomes of police killings that we have today. Citizens are not enemies or combatants and as such the military style training of police in the US today is wholly inappropriate.
- api 9y ago
  The blame can be placed on both. The person who faked a police report is guilty of homicide, but this was made possible by an overly trigger happy police force.
  - bastijn 9y ago
    Here we have the exact opposite and police are often prosecuted for firing their weapon. Result is they get kicked, slapped, scolded and vocabulary assaulted by 13 year olds who know they would win the case for a judge if it comes to it (or otherwise get 40 hours of public service). Why? Because "police needs to know better and accept it as part of their job". Maybe US is a bit much to the other side but with the statistics of people with guns there it makes sense. You know what would help? If the police tells you to do something, do it without question or big mouthing. Cops tell you to put your hands where they can see them? Do it. Tell you to lie down? Do it. Fight them later for any unjust actions but while at gunpoint just beeping comply. April from all that I hope they will prosecute the idiot swatter to set an example. This ain't no games you do for fun.
    - elygre 9y ago
      Where is “here”?
      - wott 9y ago
        According to the nickname, I'd says Netherlands. But it doesn't matter, you can find people from every single country in the world holding the same (mostly fictitious) discourse.
nasredin 9y ago
>1) Anyone who gets shot by cops must have done something to warrant being shot. Done something like being poor, minority or both? I've recently read a nice piece (Vox IIRC) on authoritarian personalities and I think this is the new norm. A decade ago I would have just written that type of comment as trolling, but now it's a different world. People genuinely hold this cryptofascist beliefs.
- likeclockwork 9y ago
  They held them a decade ago too. None of this is new. You just didn't know or didn't believe.
caf 9y ago
How's that apply to the case of Justine Damond?
- v64 9y ago
  Unfortunately, because the officer was Somali and named Mohamed, I've heard nothing but bigotry back home regarding this case. "Wouldn't have happened if the officer was white", etc. If the officer had been white, I could envision the following responses, in order of likelihood: 1) Damond must have done something unusual or stupid to cause the officer to fire on her, making it her fault, because what officer would be threatened by a Pretty White Woman? 2) As mentioned above, officers make mistakes, and this is a terrible tragedy, but they put their lives on the line every day and they were trying to do the right thing, so we can't punish them for this. 3) This is one of the "rare" cases of actual police brutality and the cop deserves to go to jail for murder.

by v64 9y ago

JoeAltmaier 9y ago

Its a very different world if you're not white and live in the American South. Easy to believe the best, when you are relatively safe.

jmaygarden 9y ago
Police violence is a universal problem. A Harvard study has shown that white people in the US are statistically more likely encounter lethal force from police than people of color [1]. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/13/why-a-massive-new-study-on-police-shootings-of-whites-and-blacks-is-so-controversial/?utm_term=.f6ccfcf56d2d https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/13/why-a...
- JoeAltmaier 9y ago
  In Houston. In a small study.
  - jmaygarden 9y ago
    That is true. I didn't mean to imply that white people somehow have it worse than minorities. That is not evidently the case with general police harassment and mistreatment. However, all races should be equally concerned with police executions. This isn't the land of Judge Dredd. We still have the 5th and 14th amendments.

davidcbc 9y ago

3) Anyone implying that the police need to change is labeled anti police by a large portion of the population because this has become a political issue in the US and given the current political climate of identity politics there is really no reasoning with those people.

contravariant 9y ago
>given the current political climate of identity politics there is really no reasoning with those people. Can I just point out the irony of saying there's no reasoning with 'those people' because of identity politics.
- nitrogen 9y ago
  It's the symmetric property of identity inequality. The fundamentally incompatible axioms of some worldviews make communication nearly impossible in either direction, within a timeframe and level of effort most people are willing to expend.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  Actually no, because 'those people' are the set of 'people who have chosen to label others as anti police' and a singular opinion isn't the same as a collective identity. Admittedly people who hold that opinion might adhere to a 'conservative identity' but the gp was specifically describing people who engaged in categorical dismissal of of political proposal, so it's legitimate to say they can't be reasoned with because categorical dismissals are an example of a genetic fallacy.
  - akvadrako 9y ago
    The wording implies you can't reason with "those people", meaning the anti-anti-police ones. But it kinda misses the mark, because you can't reason with "anybody" active in the identity-politics environment that pervades the US.
- madeofpalk 9y ago
  Usually irony like this leads to a rediculous contradiction, but here it somehow all makes sense.

mmmBacon 9y ago

Sorry but almost all the blame is on the person who pulls the trigger. Swatting is possible because of police militarization. Frankly while the idiot who made the call certainly shares some responsibility, our police policies of shoot first and ask questions later are the problem. When police are trained to respond to citizens, even violent ones, like enemies in war, we get the outcomes of police killings that we have today. Citizens are not enemies or combatants and as such the military style training of police in the US today is wholly inappropriate.

api 9y ago
The blame can be placed on both. The person who faked a police report is guilty of homicide, but this was made possible by an overly trigger happy police force.
- bastijn 9y ago
  Here we have the exact opposite and police are often prosecuted for firing their weapon. Result is they get kicked, slapped, scolded and vocabulary assaulted by 13 year olds who know they would win the case for a judge if it comes to it (or otherwise get 40 hours of public service). Why? Because "police needs to know better and accept it as part of their job". Maybe US is a bit much to the other side but with the statistics of people with guns there it makes sense. You know what would help? If the police tells you to do something, do it without question or big mouthing. Cops tell you to put your hands where they can see them? Do it. Tell you to lie down? Do it. Fight them later for any unjust actions but while at gunpoint just beeping comply. April from all that I hope they will prosecute the idiot swatter to set an example. This ain't no games you do for fun.
  - elygre 9y ago
    Where is “here”?
    - wott 9y ago
      According to the nickname, I'd says Netherlands. But it doesn't matter, you can find people from every single country in the world holding the same (mostly fictitious) discourse.

nasredin 9y ago

>1) Anyone who gets shot by cops must have done something to warrant being shot. Done something like being poor, minority or both? I've recently read a nice piece (Vox IIRC) on authoritarian personalities and I think this is the new norm. A decade ago I would have just written that type of comment as trolling, but now it's a different world. People genuinely hold this cryptofascist beliefs.

likeclockwork 9y ago
They held them a decade ago too. None of this is new. You just didn't know or didn't believe.

caf 9y ago

How's that apply to the case of Justine Damond?

v64 9y ago
Unfortunately, because the officer was Somali and named Mohamed, I've heard nothing but bigotry back home regarding this case. "Wouldn't have happened if the officer was white", etc. If the officer had been white, I could envision the following responses, in order of likelihood: 1) Damond must have done something unusual or stupid to cause the officer to fire on her, making it her fault, because what officer would be threatened by a Pretty White Woman? 2) As mentioned above, officers make mistakes, and this is a terrible tragedy, but they put their lives on the line every day and they were trying to do the right thing, so we can't punish them for this. 3) This is one of the "rare" cases of actual police brutality and the cop deserves to go to jail for murder.