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Am I wrong in thinking that Google is crazy to not have a proper linux option for the Pixelbook? They get alpha geeks away from OSX and Macbooks. They get a pl

by latch 9y ago

Am I wrong in thinking that Google is crazy to not have a proper linux option for the Pixelbook? They get alpha geeks away from OSX and Macbooks. They get a platform they can own and leverage. Get the developers, expose them to the tools, let them build stuff, and cross compile it or whatever to ChromeOS and Android. Have it dual boot into ChromeOS so your family can give it a spin.

ISL 9y ago
Crouton allows exactly that. Except for the limited disk space, I'm a big fan of the ChromeOS/Crouton option. I've used a Toshiba Chromebook 2 (? 1920x1080 screen) as my laptop for many years now. It's nicer than a dual boot, as you can swap between the runtimes on the fly. Adding dedicated delete, home, page up, page down, etc. keys would make the chromebooks even better.
- Nullabillity 9y ago
  What do you want ChromeOS for that you can't do from a proper Linux environment?
  - ISL 9y ago
    ChromeOS does a great job of providing the hardware interface layer. Furthermore, connecting to a projector on ChromeOS is way less fiddly than fighting with xrandr. (n.b. I've used Fluxbox as my WM since ~2002. Newer interfaces in the Ubuntu strain of things are probably easier/smarter.)
    - Nullabillity 9y ago
      Both KDE and XMonad have Just Worked for me when I have needed to connect external displays. No manual xrandr fiddling required.
    - lathiat 9y ago
      is modern linux any better at configuring displays than my 2002 era WM environment? i lold.
  - simonh 9y ago
    A system usable out of the box by non-technical consumers, as an alternative to a Windows or Mac laptop, or an iPad. People used to say the same sort of thing about the iPad. You could put Linux on a tablet for half the price. Yes, but only 1% of the population would be able to use it. Of course Pixels aren’t aimed at ordinary consumers though. They are high end devices aimed at developers, because Google wants to support an active community of highly skilled and capable developers working on apps for the chrome book, or at least ensure that their cross platform web apps are Chromebook compatible and take advantage of the platform’s features. They’re much more likely to do that if they have a Chromebook they actualy enjoy using and do dev work on, rather than just having an extra low end device around for testing.
- skybrian 9y ago
  Just enabling dev mode on a Chromebook is apparently pretty insecure against local exploits [1]. An officially supported way of running Linux could do better than that. [1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/06/how-to-install-linux-on-a-chromebook/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/06/how-to-install-linux...
  - nl 9y ago
    It’s exactly as insecure as a standard x86 PC then (ignoring recent Intel issues!). Yes this is less secure than the default config.
    - TheDong 9y ago
      For regular x86 PCs you can use secure-boot and load your own signing keys, then sign your own linux kernel. As far as I know, chromeos has no option for that. Either it has only google's signing keys, or secure-boot is entirely disabled via devmode. That's clearly a massive step down in security from most modern x86 laptops.
      - nl 9y ago
        Yeah fair call. Although I’ve never met anyone who has actually done that.
      - fpoling 9y ago
        On some Chromebooks via relatively straightforward hardware modification it was possible to install bootloader enabling custom code signing.
  - isr 9y ago
    Once you put a chromebook into devmode, you can login as the user 'chronos'. chronos does not have a password, and it has full sudo abilities (so you have root access immediately). Also, verified boot is turned off. Ok, but what much of the (sadly) uninformed commentary around chromebooks and devmode fails to mention is that you can turn it all back on - and still keep devmode. There's a simple script left there for you to set a password for chronos, and the big motd thats printed on the console (but not crosh) tells you about it. Run it, choose your password, and those who have physical access no longer have automatic root (or even chronos) access. Turn verified boot back on, and disable legacy and usb booting. Now you have a machine, still in devmode, thats MORE secure that standard x86 machines. - you can't boot from external media - you can't pass args to the internal bootloader, when booting chromeos's kernel, so no more single-user linux kernel tricks (ie: instant root) - you can't somehow modify the on-board kernel and get past verified boot Nothing's totally unhackable, but this seems reasonably secure to me ...
Eridrus 9y ago
Why? Google isn't designing ChromeOS to be a platform for developers to target, so there isn't a tonne of advantage to having developers on the platform.
- Abishek_Muthian 9y ago
  I think Dart VM in Chrome was supposed to enable that, but since opposition the plan was dropped to focus on generic JS compilation.
lern_too_spel 9y ago
ChromeOS supports PRoot. https://blog.lessonslearned.org/building-a-more-secure-development-chromebook/ https://blog.lessonslearned.org/building-a-more-secure-devel...
Abishek_Muthian 9y ago
Just to note, booting linux like GaliumOS on Chromebook is not straight forward as enabling developer mode; it causes hardware damage in certain devices due a depthcharge issue. https://wiki.galliumos.org/Support/Braswell https://wiki.galliumos.org/Support/Braswell
tw04 9y ago
>Am I wrong in thinking that Google is crazy to not have a proper linux option for the Pixelbook? You are crazy. The first thing a company like Google has to do when creating a new product is ask themselves how they monetize. It's something Sun Microsystems failed at and subsequently went out of business because of. Google doesn't make money selling hardware, and has no plans to. They make it by getting people onto google apps and google search. Releasing proper linux support accomplishes neither of those goals. There are way too many people around here who seem to think Google loves Linux. Google loves Linux because it's a means to an end - they're jump started on drivers/hardware support, they have access to source (so they can control their own destiny), and it costs them no money. They fact they're actively working on replacements for Linxu for their mobile strategy (and it's not open source), should tell you everything you need to know.
- jacksmith21006 9y ago
  Gnu/Linux works fine on a CB but you have to use Crouton and put in developer or use a fake Chroot. Google is working on making the Linux KVM work in ChromeOS and there was a comment in a commit to stop disabling the KVM as it will be used for Docker support in the future. This would solve the issue of the work arounds and will make the CB a great GNU/Linux dev machine. BTW, with Crouton you can use docker containers on CBs. Since Linux kernel they run native.

by latch 9y ago

ISL 9y ago

Crouton allows exactly that. Except for the limited disk space, I'm a big fan of the ChromeOS/Crouton option. I've used a Toshiba Chromebook 2 (? 1920x1080 screen) as my laptop for many years now. It's nicer than a dual boot, as you can swap between the runtimes on the fly. Adding dedicated delete, home, page up, page down, etc. keys would make the chromebooks even better.

Nullabillity 9y ago
What do you want ChromeOS for that you can't do from a proper Linux environment?
- ISL 9y ago
  ChromeOS does a great job of providing the hardware interface layer. Furthermore, connecting to a projector on ChromeOS is way less fiddly than fighting with xrandr. (n.b. I've used Fluxbox as my WM since ~2002. Newer interfaces in the Ubuntu strain of things are probably easier/smarter.)
  - Nullabillity 9y ago
    Both KDE and XMonad have Just Worked for me when I have needed to connect external displays. No manual xrandr fiddling required.
  - lathiat 9y ago
    is modern linux any better at configuring displays than my 2002 era WM environment? i lold.
- simonh 9y ago
  A system usable out of the box by non-technical consumers, as an alternative to a Windows or Mac laptop, or an iPad. People used to say the same sort of thing about the iPad. You could put Linux on a tablet for half the price. Yes, but only 1% of the population would be able to use it. Of course Pixels aren’t aimed at ordinary consumers though. They are high end devices aimed at developers, because Google wants to support an active community of highly skilled and capable developers working on apps for the chrome book, or at least ensure that their cross platform web apps are Chromebook compatible and take advantage of the platform’s features. They’re much more likely to do that if they have a Chromebook they actualy enjoy using and do dev work on, rather than just having an extra low end device around for testing.
skybrian 9y ago
Just enabling dev mode on a Chromebook is apparently pretty insecure against local exploits [1]. An officially supported way of running Linux could do better than that. [1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/06/how-to-install-linux-on-a-chromebook/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/06/how-to-install-linux...
- nl 9y ago
  It’s exactly as insecure as a standard x86 PC then (ignoring recent Intel issues!). Yes this is less secure than the default config.
  - TheDong 9y ago
    For regular x86 PCs you can use secure-boot and load your own signing keys, then sign your own linux kernel. As far as I know, chromeos has no option for that. Either it has only google's signing keys, or secure-boot is entirely disabled via devmode. That's clearly a massive step down in security from most modern x86 laptops.
    - nl 9y ago
      Yeah fair call. Although I’ve never met anyone who has actually done that.
    - fpoling 9y ago
      On some Chromebooks via relatively straightforward hardware modification it was possible to install bootloader enabling custom code signing.
- isr 9y ago
  Once you put a chromebook into devmode, you can login as the user 'chronos'. chronos does not have a password, and it has full sudo abilities (so you have root access immediately). Also, verified boot is turned off. Ok, but what much of the (sadly) uninformed commentary around chromebooks and devmode fails to mention is that you can turn it all back on - and still keep devmode. There's a simple script left there for you to set a password for chronos, and the big motd thats printed on the console (but not crosh) tells you about it. Run it, choose your password, and those who have physical access no longer have automatic root (or even chronos) access. Turn verified boot back on, and disable legacy and usb booting. Now you have a machine, still in devmode, thats MORE secure that standard x86 machines. - you can't boot from external media - you can't pass args to the internal bootloader, when booting chromeos's kernel, so no more single-user linux kernel tricks (ie: instant root) - you can't somehow modify the on-board kernel and get past verified boot Nothing's totally unhackable, but this seems reasonably secure to me ...

Eridrus 9y ago

Why? Google isn't designing ChromeOS to be a platform for developers to target, so there isn't a tonne of advantage to having developers on the platform.

Abishek_Muthian 9y ago
I think Dart VM in Chrome was supposed to enable that, but since opposition the plan was dropped to focus on generic JS compilation.

lern_too_spel 9y ago

ChromeOS supports PRoot. https://blog.lessonslearned.org/building-a-more-secure-development-chromebook/ https://blog.lessonslearned.org/building-a-more-secure-devel...

Abishek_Muthian 9y ago

Just to note, booting linux like GaliumOS on Chromebook is not straight forward as enabling developer mode; it causes hardware damage in certain devices due a depthcharge issue. https://wiki.galliumos.org/Support/Braswell https://wiki.galliumos.org/Support/Braswell

tw04 9y ago

>Am I wrong in thinking that Google is crazy to not have a proper linux option for the Pixelbook? You are crazy. The first thing a company like Google has to do when creating a new product is ask themselves how they monetize. It's something Sun Microsystems failed at and subsequently went out of business because of. Google doesn't make money selling hardware, and has no plans to. They make it by getting people onto google apps and google search. Releasing proper linux support accomplishes neither of those goals. There are way too many people around here who seem to think Google loves Linux. Google loves Linux because it's a means to an end - they're jump started on drivers/hardware support, they have access to source (so they can control their own destiny), and it costs them no money. They fact they're actively working on replacements for Linxu for their mobile strategy (and it's not open source), should tell you everything you need to know.

jacksmith21006 9y ago
Gnu/Linux works fine on a CB but you have to use Crouton and put in developer or use a fake Chroot. Google is working on making the Linux KVM work in ChromeOS and there was a comment in a commit to stop disabling the KVM as it will be used for Docker support in the future. This would solve the issue of the work arounds and will make the CB a great GNU/Linux dev machine. BTW, with Crouton you can use docker containers on CBs. Since Linux kernel they run native.