5 ms·

Is the grid in Shenzhen mostly coal-powered?

by nwah1 9y ago

andschwa 9y ago
Coal provided electricity to power electric powers ends up _still_ being cleaner than ICEs, which are just about the worst in efficiency or cleanliness as you can get.
- nwah1 9y ago
  Coal releases lead, radon, and other toxic pollutants into the environment. And you haven't supported the assertion that coal-powered EVs emit less CO2, and it contradicts what I've generally heard elsewhere.
  - ecpottinger 9y ago
    Do the math instead of listening to people who resist change. You are right about the extra stuff that comes with coal power, but you will find with a good modern coal plant, transmission losses, and battery/electric motor loss still puts less CO2 in the air that gasoline cars per mile travelled.
    - rayiner 9y ago
      https://www.citylab.com/environment/2015/06/where-electric-vehicles-actually-cause-more-pollution-than-gas-cars/397136/ https://www.citylab.com/environment/2015/06/where-electric-v...
  - melling 9y ago
    You have no idea if coal, gas, or nuclear is used. You just made a guess that they use more coal? According to Wikipedia there are two gas fired plants in Shenzhen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_stations_in_Guangdong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_stations_i...
  - adrianN 9y ago
    ICEs release all kinds of toxic gases and particulates too, only they do right where people breathe. Coal plants can be build farther away.
    - nwah1 9y ago
      Very true. Although, historically speaking even in the US there have been coal power plants right in dense urban areas.
  - ZenoArrow 9y ago
    > "And you haven't supported the assertion that coal-powered EVs emit less CO2, and it contradicts what I've generally heard elsewhere." https://www.autoblog.com/2011/10/14/how-gas-cars-use-more-electricity-to-go-100-miles-than-evs-do/ https://www.autoblog.com/2011/10/14/how-gas-cars-use-more-el... I'm guessing the units should've been 'KW' rather than 'KWh' but the general point is, you have to take into account the energy used to take the oil from the ground and transform it into petrol/diesel ready to be used in cars. In other words, all of the energy used in drilling, refining and transporting should count towards the total energy used.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Yes, but it depends on the coal and the emission controls on the plant using it. This is china we are talking about after all. Low quality coal used directly for heating in the villages, for example, is very very dirty.
deleted 9y ago
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ychen306 9y ago
On average 70% of China's power comes from coal. I can't find data with regard to Shenzhen or Guangdong (the province it's in) though.
SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
As is customary in these discussions, the "Long Tailpipe" idea has been raised again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_tailpipe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_tailpipe http://www.casteyanqui.com/ev/longtailpipe/ http://www.casteyanqui.com/ev/longtailpipe/ Mr Musk's criticism of it is in here https://www.tesla.com/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-just-between-you-and-me https://www.tesla.com/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-j... Section starting "Power Plant Emissions aka “The Long Tailpipe”" Chinese electricity might be dirty today, but if they're willing to transform the busses, what makes you think that the grid power will stay unchanged? Solar energy is becoming cheaper every year, becoming competitive with coal even without taking emissions problems into account. And where are those solar panels manufactured again? And if they stay with some coal generation, I found these on google very quickly: http://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/china-cleans-up-its-act-58505 http://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/china-cleans-up-its-act-5... https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/5/15/15634538/china-coal-cleaner https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/5/15/1563453...
deleted 9y ago
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leemailll 9y ago
I have to data for the electricity sources, but Shenzhen is right near a nuclear power plant

Is the grid in Shenzhen mostly coal-powered?

by nwah1 9y ago

Is the grid in Shenzhen mostly coal-powered?

Coal provided electricity to power electric powers ends up _still_ being cleaner than ICEs, which are just about the worst in efficiency or cleanliness as you can get.

nwah1 9y ago
Coal releases lead, radon, and other toxic pollutants into the environment. And you haven't supported the assertion that coal-powered EVs emit less CO2, and it contradicts what I've generally heard elsewhere.
- ecpottinger 9y ago
  Do the math instead of listening to people who resist change. You are right about the extra stuff that comes with coal power, but you will find with a good modern coal plant, transmission losses, and battery/electric motor loss still puts less CO2 in the air that gasoline cars per mile travelled.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    https://www.citylab.com/environment/2015/06/where-electric-vehicles-actually-cause-more-pollution-than-gas-cars/397136/ https://www.citylab.com/environment/2015/06/where-electric-v...
- melling 9y ago
  You have no idea if coal, gas, or nuclear is used. You just made a guess that they use more coal? According to Wikipedia there are two gas fired plants in Shenzhen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_stations_in_Guangdong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_stations_i...
- adrianN 9y ago
  ICEs release all kinds of toxic gases and particulates too, only they do right where people breathe. Coal plants can be build farther away.
  - nwah1 9y ago
    Very true. Although, historically speaking even in the US there have been coal power plants right in dense urban areas.
- ZenoArrow 9y ago
  > "And you haven't supported the assertion that coal-powered EVs emit less CO2, and it contradicts what I've generally heard elsewhere." https://www.autoblog.com/2011/10/14/how-gas-cars-use-more-electricity-to-go-100-miles-than-evs-do/ https://www.autoblog.com/2011/10/14/how-gas-cars-use-more-el... I'm guessing the units should've been 'KW' rather than 'KWh' but the general point is, you have to take into account the energy used to take the oil from the ground and transform it into petrol/diesel ready to be used in cars. In other words, all of the energy used in drilling, refining and transporting should count towards the total energy used.
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Yes, but it depends on the coal and the emission controls on the plant using it. This is china we are talking about after all. Low quality coal used directly for heating in the villages, for example, is very very dirty.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

ychen306 9y ago

On average 70% of China's power comes from coal. I can't find data with regard to Shenzhen or Guangdong (the province it's in) though.

SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago

As is customary in these discussions, the "Long Tailpipe" idea has been raised again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_tailpipe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_tailpipe http://www.casteyanqui.com/ev/longtailpipe/ http://www.casteyanqui.com/ev/longtailpipe/ Mr Musk's criticism of it is in here https://www.tesla.com/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-just-between-you-and-me https://www.tesla.com/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-j... Section starting "Power Plant Emissions aka “The Long Tailpipe”" Chinese electricity might be dirty today, but if they're willing to transform the busses, what makes you think that the grid power will stay unchanged? Solar energy is becoming cheaper every year, becoming competitive with coal even without taking emissions problems into account. And where are those solar panels manufactured again? And if they stay with some coal generation, I found these on google very quickly: http://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/china-cleans-up-its-act-58505 http://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/china-cleans-up-its-act-5... https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/5/15/15634538/china-coal-cleaner https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/5/15/1563453...

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

leemailll 9y ago

I have to data for the electricity sources, but Shenzhen is right near a nuclear power plant