8 ms·

I'm 40, and some of my coworkers are like 25. I'm about two management levels above the basic engineers, but we're a small company and everyone knows everyone.

I'm 40, and some of my coworkers are like 25. I'm about two management levels above the basic engineers, but we're a small company and everyone knows everyone. So I'm having lunch with some of the engineers, and one of them shares out of the blue that she regrets getting a computer science degree at her (good) college, and thinks she should've gone into business instead. And my immediate thought is, "For god's sake, don't SAY that shit around me, I'm someone who has a big say in your career prospects." I like having a casual, informal work experience. But it's a thin layer. Ultimately, this is still a hierarchy, and ultimately, you have to think about who you're talking to. (Separately: Don't get an undergraduate degree in business. What a worthless degree.)

lkrubner 9y ago
Exactly. That sums it up. When you hear something like: "Yeah, I know, I’m so scared. When Lawrence offered me this job, I was so worried about whether I could do it. I mean it’s all so complicated, and the connections to be made over the network are so uncertain, and then, everything, the timeouts, the servers, lost messages, everything I have to think about it, it’s just really overwhelming and scary, you know?" It sounds like a lack of confidence. However, Deborah Tannen has suggested a different interpretation.
- eeZah7Ux 9y ago
  > lack of confidence Hide your doubts, smile and act confident and you'll be OK most of the time... ..but when it fails it can lead to disasters, especially if entire teams are engaging in this behavior.
  - mr_spothawk 9y ago
    > when it fails it can lead to disasters do you have any examples of this?
    - losteric 9y ago
      Are you asking for examples of failure resulting from one or more people overstating their confidence in achieving expectations?
    - neltnerb 9y ago
      If you're falling behind and are finding a problem is more complex than originally estimated, it is your job to express that doubt to your manager so that they can either get you more resources or otherwise... manage... the issue. They have to make a lot of pieces fit together that all converge to a solution at the right time to keep everything overall moving, and can't do that without good information. It's more important to the company that the project get done than that you did it all by yourself, and if you're afraid to disclose your barriers or doubts then it will fail spectacularly. You will look infinity times worse failing to meet a deadline without advance warning than if you go to your boss a month before and explain that the problem has <x, y, and z> unexpected issues and that you need help.
  - spoiler 9y ago
    Not sure if you're being funny, but I disagree that we should hide our doubts or insecurities. I know it sounds contrary to what you want to do in that moment, though. However, don't exaggerate or emphasize them too much either, but rather get in the mindset of wanting to become better at the skill/subject, and display that mindset. I'd think much higher of a person who did that than someone who pretends everything is fine when they are struggling. Also, if you display this mindset, people will offer to help you, too!
    - eeZah7Ux 9y ago
      Read the second part of the sentence.
rainbowmverse 9y ago
>> (Separately: Don't get an undergraduate degree in business. What a worthless degree.) It's hard for people to learn things like this if they're afraid to talk to people who've gone down that road for fear that an honest expression of concern will be read as a critical lack of confidence. Just because we're yelled and beaten down for every expression of vulnerability growing up doesn't mean we have to perpetuate it into adulthood. Stop the cycle.
- foobarchu 9y ago
  I don't think the point was that she shouldn't have shared that information with peers at all, it's that she needs to be more careful about exactly who she's telling it to. OP may easily be in a position later of promoting her to another position. Even if she is confident in her choices by that point, OP will still have that information tucked in their mind, and will (maybe unconciously) utilize it in their decisions. Nobody is yelling at her or beating her down about this, but she needs to be more discrete in who she shares what information with. Even if you see someone as a friend, friends aren't all equally deserving of your hopes and fears. I think a good analogy is group projects in school. If you had a classmate who you were good friends with, and they had been sharing with you how much they were struggling and that they were considering dropping the class...wouldn't you factor that information in when choosing partners for a group project? You might decide that "no, I like them too much", and go with them, but it's going to be a decision you have to make because you already possess the information.
  - rainbowmverse 9y ago
    A good group project with people who are mature enough to handle someone's expression of vulnerability without judgement might be what keeps them in the class. If you reject someone over an expression of doubt, it was never about the doubt.
    - harlanji 9y ago
      The one grayed down comment. I agree whole heartedly.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
make3 9y ago
you likely wouldn't be eating with them on a regular basis
mc32 9y ago
My take, is work with what people offer in an official capacity and ignore the informal communication because many people who have similar doubts and inner thoughts simply don't express them. So basically, you'd be "punishing" someone for being honest and potentially promoting someone who is better at "manoeuvering" through the corp labyrinth.
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  There's two sides to this. From the boss's side, yes, punishing someone for honesty and promoting someone else for keeping their mouth shut on the same feelings is... suboptimal at best. From the worker's side, though, you don't know how smart the boss is. You don't know whether they are a jerk or a compassionate human being. Don't give them ammunition to use against you. (If you know your boss well, and you know they won't use it against you, that's different. I've had bosses that I would absolutely trust with that kind of information. And, I've had bosses that I wasn't sure I could do that. And I've seen one that I absolutely know I couldn't trust with anything negative, but fortunately he was never my boss.)
  - mc32 9y ago
    I agree with what you said with respect to bosses. Some will certainly hold your doubts and or honesty against you, and that's unfortunate. So, yes, beware of who your boss is.
  - greenrd 9y ago
    Don't ever trust your employer. I've learned this the hard way. It's 2017 - employers have no loyalty to us when the shit hits the fan - and we should have no loyalty to them. Stay if you like it, go if you don't - because there's probably something better out there.
misterbowfinger 9y ago
> And my immediate thought is, "For god's sake, don't SAY that shit around me, I'm someone who has a big say in your career prospects." Did you tell her that? Why or why not? Seems like a really good opportunity for a teachable moment.
- rhombocombus 9y ago
  I have been very fortunate to have bosses pull me aside and give me advice like this while I was young. It has helped me tremendously throughout my working life. I try to keep that in mind as I work with younger people. It can be hard to bring these sorts of things up diplomatically, but it is really important to do it if we expect folks to change their behavior.
- alecco 9y ago
  That could backfire. It's low probability but it could carry big consequences. The current climate of accusations is not good for managers.
codingdave 9y ago
> I'm someone who has a big say in your career prospects. No, you have a big say in their progression within one specific organization. Their career prospects overall are up to them. Frankly, I will quit a boss who acts like they own my career. (Separately: Your undergrad degree is what you make of it. There is no worthless education, only worthless application of that education into your life.)
- greenrd 9y ago
  Neither quitting in a fit of pique nor being fired look good in an interview. You can get away with a prima donna vibe - but only if you're really good - and sometimes not even then.
- lnanek2 9y ago
  I've seen plenty of bosses who will try to improve someone even if they know they are leaving in a couple years, telling people to make sure to get on LinkedIn so they can rate them up, etc.. There's much less loyalty to companies nowadays, but people do have loyalty to their superior if the superior is setting them up for success no matter what. So I think a good boss does have some traction on a person's career, not just their advancement in a single organization. Companies and management that push to make their employees better overall and not just for themselves often brag about it too.
  - codingdave 9y ago
    True -- but GP's comment didn't sound like a mentoring relationship to me. He was saying he expects people to watch what they say around him, implying that open and transparent communication is not part of their culture. Had he said that he took the person aside later and talked through office communications and culture, THAT would sound like mentoring.
tjr225 9y ago
> (Separately: Don't get an undergraduate degree in business. What a worthless degree.) Anecdotally, I have an undergraduate business degree and it has opened many doors for me.
mulmen 9y ago
I get a lot of value from my undergraduate business degree and resent your characterization of my education and career choices.
ataturk 9y ago
I don't see the problem. It's normal for intelligent people to play these "what if?" games because playing out scenarios both in your head and by talking to others is how you improve. You don't do it by being an idiot, that's for sure. Also, she's not necessarily going to advance at her current company in her current role, so whatever say you think you have about her future is largely theoretic.
bootsz 9y ago
* > (Separately: Don't get an undergraduate degree in business. What a worthless degree.) Depends on the major. Accounting is a pretty legitimate degree with high-ish earning potential. Finance can be semi-legit, but most Wall Street jobs will just as easily take people with math or engineering degrees, often preferring them, and those degrees are way more versatile. Most others will not increase your career options. I made this mistake sadly.
- mulmen 9y ago
  This is a toxic generalization and is unfair to anyone who put in the work to earn and then take advantage of a business degree. Are you honestly arguing that the entire discipline of marketing is worthless? What about project management? Process improvement? Human resources? It's flat wrong to say a business degree is "worthless". I have an undergraduate business degree and I have done very well with it. Your mistakes are your own, don't blame the program.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - bootsz 9y ago
    Worthless is not a fair adjective, I have rephrased. But I still maintain that (outside of Accounting) I would not personally recommend a young person to get their undergraduate degree in business assuming it will be their sole undergraduate degree. Business is a great add-on to a specialty in something else, though. Thus the popularity of people going from science/engineering undergrad to an MBA later on. What was your major, and what type of job/position did you take post-undergraduate?
    - mulmen 9y ago
      My major is irrelevant to this conversation because I have classmates with successful and fulfilling careers in all the disciplines offered by my business school. Their business degrees (and mine) are their primary degree and are worth more than they cost. I think you do a disservice to young people by giving them absolute advice like that. Business school does not work for everyone, that does not make it worthless or only good as a supplement. My degree opened doors to a career that I would not have with any other degree. That doesn't mean everyone should do it but a lot of people can. It certainly means that your absolute statements are incorrect.
jupiter90000 9y ago
If they don't like computer science why do you think they'd want to advance a career related to computer science? Maybe speaking it out loud is helping them move towards fulfillment of what they'd really like. People are allowed to regret their career choices in front of people if they want to. It may have consequences, but that's their business.
- greenrd 9y ago
  The point is, these consequences can include everything up to and including termination, and a resultant difficulty in finding a subsequent job that pays as well. The young woman probably didn't think of that when she blurted that out. Or maybe she has a trust fund to fall back on, but the people around her may not, and she wasn't setting a good example.
  - jupiter90000 9y ago
    I get it. If she doesn't like computer science though, maybe the termination will be part of her process to finding something she enjoys. Edit: my point is she doesn't have to pretend if she chooses not to. Who cares if that's what she chooses to do. I guess maybe the concern is she was oblivious to the impact of what she said.
- aetherson 9y ago
  If she wants to get out of engineering, that's something she can do at any point, on her own recognizance. She doesn't need my help to do it. But, on the other hand, if she does decide she wants to continue as an engineer in our company, she's now added a kind of negative datapoint to my evaluation of her suitability, and for something that's not entirely within her control -- it's partly within mine. It's just a bad idea for her to do this. It's not the only data point I have, and I tend to think that she'll actually do fine in engineering if she decides to continue down this path. But my job isn't to make her dreams come true, it's to find the people to make the best investments of the company's money in personnel. Let's give a not-entirely-hypothetical. Let's say that Alice is the name of the engineer who expressed regrets about going into engineering (not her real name, to be clear), and Betty is the name of another, very similar engineer, who has expressed no regrets. A tech lead spot is opening up in Alice and Betty's field. It's likely to be the only such spot in the near term. Alice and Betty are both seemingly good candidates for the job. But I have to be worried that whichever one I don't pick for the role will feel that they have no career path at our company, and quit. Now, I could pick Alice. But I know that at least at one point in the past, Alice was regretting becoming an engineer. It sure would suck if I pick Alice, Betty quits, and then six months later Alice pursues her dream to go into business. Whereas if I pick Betty, and then Alice quits, well, maybe Alice was going to get out of engineering anyway. I feel that I have to give some weight to this information I have about Alice. It's not that I dislike her or feel that she's weak for expressing doubts. It's that she's given me a reason to doubt that she'll be here long term, and if I'm going to invest a limited resource in her versus her peers, I want to do so with the most assurance possible that she'll be here long enough to make that investment worthwhile. Ask yourself if it would be fair to Betty for me to pretend I didn't know this about Alice.
greenrd 9y ago
See - even this woman who studied CS and got a job in the field ended up regretting it. And that's hardly an isolated example. I'm not saying all women who study CS regret it - far from it - but maybe James Damore was onto something?
- abiox 9y ago
  it's not stated why they felt that way. i'm a guy and have thought that at times myself... for me, mostly because it seems (from this angle) that MBA types can get a great/better salary and have a FAR higher income/status ceiling, all while seemingly having a much easier life than engineers (grass is always greener :P).
  - greenrd 9y ago
    I can't relate to that at all. Having to stay awake in even more boring meetings? Not being able to write code any more? Why would any programmer want that - unless they didn't actually enjoy their job?
    - bokstavkjeks 9y ago
      Some people want to be a business partner more than an employee. Not that that's impossible as a software engineer, but it may be easier from a different starting point.
rajacombinator 9y ago
I’d wager if such an unimportant comment would have a serious effect on her prospects working for you, her prospects weren’t that good to begin with.
- Daishiman 9y ago
  It's not an unimportant comment at all.
amorphid 9y ago
> (Separately: Don't get an undergraduate degree in business. What a worthless degree.) As one who has a bachelors in business, I wouldn't my degree completely useless, but I can't think of a reason I'd recommend someone might go down that path. I would say 80% of the value I got from my degree could be achieved by taking courses in 2 or 3 classes, maybe accounting, finance, marketing, and management.
jclos 9y ago
Why not use that information to see whether there is a better place for her in your company? Ultimately it's in your (the company's) best interest to keep smart people around, and the transversal skills obtained from forming an engineer in business practices can be extremely valuable. I agree with your statement on informality - there is a very thin line that's right inbetween boring formality and obnoxious casualness and it takes some time to learn how to walk it, but I don't think your engineer's words are that bad. A good manager (even N+2) should have some idea of the career aspirations of their employees, and your employee sounds like she'd rather be moved to a different position with less computer science stuff than be promoted for more of the same thing.

lkrubner 9y ago

Exactly. That sums it up. When you hear something like: "Yeah, I know, I’m so scared. When Lawrence offered me this job, I was so worried about whether I could do it. I mean it’s all so complicated, and the connections to be made over the network are so uncertain, and then, everything, the timeouts, the servers, lost messages, everything I have to think about it, it’s just really overwhelming and scary, you know?" It sounds like a lack of confidence. However, Deborah Tannen has suggested a different interpretation.

eeZah7Ux 9y ago
> lack of confidence Hide your doubts, smile and act confident and you'll be OK most of the time... ..but when it fails it can lead to disasters, especially if entire teams are engaging in this behavior.
- mr_spothawk 9y ago
  > when it fails it can lead to disasters do you have any examples of this?
  - losteric 9y ago
    Are you asking for examples of failure resulting from one or more people overstating their confidence in achieving expectations?
  - neltnerb 9y ago
    If you're falling behind and are finding a problem is more complex than originally estimated, it is your job to express that doubt to your manager so that they can either get you more resources or otherwise... manage... the issue. They have to make a lot of pieces fit together that all converge to a solution at the right time to keep everything overall moving, and can't do that without good information. It's more important to the company that the project get done than that you did it all by yourself, and if you're afraid to disclose your barriers or doubts then it will fail spectacularly. You will look infinity times worse failing to meet a deadline without advance warning than if you go to your boss a month before and explain that the problem has <x, y, and z> unexpected issues and that you need help.
- spoiler 9y ago
  Not sure if you're being funny, but I disagree that we should hide our doubts or insecurities. I know it sounds contrary to what you want to do in that moment, though. However, don't exaggerate or emphasize them too much either, but rather get in the mindset of wanting to become better at the skill/subject, and display that mindset. I'd think much higher of a person who did that than someone who pretends everything is fine when they are struggling. Also, if you display this mindset, people will offer to help you, too!
  - eeZah7Ux 9y ago
    Read the second part of the sentence.

rainbowmverse 9y ago

>> (Separately: Don't get an undergraduate degree in business. What a worthless degree.) It's hard for people to learn things like this if they're afraid to talk to people who've gone down that road for fear that an honest expression of concern will be read as a critical lack of confidence. Just because we're yelled and beaten down for every expression of vulnerability growing up doesn't mean we have to perpetuate it into adulthood. Stop the cycle.

foobarchu 9y ago
I don't think the point was that she shouldn't have shared that information with peers at all, it's that she needs to be more careful about exactly who she's telling it to. OP may easily be in a position later of promoting her to another position. Even if she is confident in her choices by that point, OP will still have that information tucked in their mind, and will (maybe unconciously) utilize it in their decisions. Nobody is yelling at her or beating her down about this, but she needs to be more discrete in who she shares what information with. Even if you see someone as a friend, friends aren't all equally deserving of your hopes and fears. I think a good analogy is group projects in school. If you had a classmate who you were good friends with, and they had been sharing with you how much they were struggling and that they were considering dropping the class...wouldn't you factor that information in when choosing partners for a group project? You might decide that "no, I like them too much", and go with them, but it's going to be a decision you have to make because you already possess the information.
- rainbowmverse 9y ago
  A good group project with people who are mature enough to handle someone's expression of vulnerability without judgement might be what keeps them in the class. If you reject someone over an expression of doubt, it was never about the doubt.
  - harlanji 9y ago
    The one grayed down comment. I agree whole heartedly.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

make3 9y ago

you likely wouldn't be eating with them on a regular basis

mc32 9y ago

My take, is work with what people offer in an official capacity and ignore the informal communication because many people who have similar doubts and inner thoughts simply don't express them. So basically, you'd be "punishing" someone for being honest and potentially promoting someone who is better at "manoeuvering" through the corp labyrinth.

AnimalMuppet 9y ago
There's two sides to this. From the boss's side, yes, punishing someone for honesty and promoting someone else for keeping their mouth shut on the same feelings is... suboptimal at best. From the worker's side, though, you don't know how smart the boss is. You don't know whether they are a jerk or a compassionate human being. Don't give them ammunition to use against you. (If you know your boss well, and you know they won't use it against you, that's different. I've had bosses that I would absolutely trust with that kind of information. And, I've had bosses that I wasn't sure I could do that. And I've seen one that I absolutely know I couldn't trust with anything negative, but fortunately he was never my boss.)
- mc32 9y ago
  I agree with what you said with respect to bosses. Some will certainly hold your doubts and or honesty against you, and that's unfortunate. So, yes, beware of who your boss is.
- greenrd 9y ago
  Don't ever trust your employer. I've learned this the hard way. It's 2017 - employers have no loyalty to us when the shit hits the fan - and we should have no loyalty to them. Stay if you like it, go if you don't - because there's probably something better out there.

misterbowfinger 9y ago

> And my immediate thought is, "For god's sake, don't SAY that shit around me, I'm someone who has a big say in your career prospects." Did you tell her that? Why or why not? Seems like a really good opportunity for a teachable moment.

rhombocombus 9y ago
I have been very fortunate to have bosses pull me aside and give me advice like this while I was young. It has helped me tremendously throughout my working life. I try to keep that in mind as I work with younger people. It can be hard to bring these sorts of things up diplomatically, but it is really important to do it if we expect folks to change their behavior.
alecco 9y ago
That could backfire. It's low probability but it could carry big consequences. The current climate of accusations is not good for managers.

codingdave 9y ago

> I'm someone who has a big say in your career prospects. No, you have a big say in their progression within one specific organization. Their career prospects overall are up to them. Frankly, I will quit a boss who acts like they own my career. (Separately: Your undergrad degree is what you make of it. There is no worthless education, only worthless application of that education into your life.)

greenrd 9y ago
Neither quitting in a fit of pique nor being fired look good in an interview. You can get away with a prima donna vibe - but only if you're really good - and sometimes not even then.
lnanek2 9y ago
I've seen plenty of bosses who will try to improve someone even if they know they are leaving in a couple years, telling people to make sure to get on LinkedIn so they can rate them up, etc.. There's much less loyalty to companies nowadays, but people do have loyalty to their superior if the superior is setting them up for success no matter what. So I think a good boss does have some traction on a person's career, not just their advancement in a single organization. Companies and management that push to make their employees better overall and not just for themselves often brag about it too.
- codingdave 9y ago
  True -- but GP's comment didn't sound like a mentoring relationship to me. He was saying he expects people to watch what they say around him, implying that open and transparent communication is not part of their culture. Had he said that he took the person aside later and talked through office communications and culture, THAT would sound like mentoring.

tjr225 9y ago

> (Separately: Don't get an undergraduate degree in business. What a worthless degree.) Anecdotally, I have an undergraduate business degree and it has opened many doors for me.

mulmen 9y ago

I get a lot of value from my undergraduate business degree and resent your characterization of my education and career choices.

ataturk 9y ago

I don't see the problem. It's normal for intelligent people to play these "what if?" games because playing out scenarios both in your head and by talking to others is how you improve. You don't do it by being an idiot, that's for sure. Also, she's not necessarily going to advance at her current company in her current role, so whatever say you think you have about her future is largely theoretic.

bootsz 9y ago

* > (Separately: Don't get an undergraduate degree in business. What a worthless degree.) Depends on the major. Accounting is a pretty legitimate degree with high-ish earning potential. Finance can be semi-legit, but most Wall Street jobs will just as easily take people with math or engineering degrees, often preferring them, and those degrees are way more versatile. Most others will not increase your career options. I made this mistake sadly.

mulmen 9y ago
This is a toxic generalization and is unfair to anyone who put in the work to earn and then take advantage of a business degree. Are you honestly arguing that the entire discipline of marketing is worthless? What about project management? Process improvement? Human resources? It's flat wrong to say a business degree is "worthless". I have an undergraduate business degree and I have done very well with it. Your mistakes are your own, don't blame the program.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- bootsz 9y ago
  Worthless is not a fair adjective, I have rephrased. But I still maintain that (outside of Accounting) I would not personally recommend a young person to get their undergraduate degree in business assuming it will be their sole undergraduate degree. Business is a great add-on to a specialty in something else, though. Thus the popularity of people going from science/engineering undergrad to an MBA later on. What was your major, and what type of job/position did you take post-undergraduate?
  - mulmen 9y ago
    My major is irrelevant to this conversation because I have classmates with successful and fulfilling careers in all the disciplines offered by my business school. Their business degrees (and mine) are their primary degree and are worth more than they cost. I think you do a disservice to young people by giving them absolute advice like that. Business school does not work for everyone, that does not make it worthless or only good as a supplement. My degree opened doors to a career that I would not have with any other degree. That doesn't mean everyone should do it but a lot of people can. It certainly means that your absolute statements are incorrect.

jupiter90000 9y ago

If they don't like computer science why do you think they'd want to advance a career related to computer science? Maybe speaking it out loud is helping them move towards fulfillment of what they'd really like. People are allowed to regret their career choices in front of people if they want to. It may have consequences, but that's their business.

greenrd 9y ago
The point is, these consequences can include everything up to and including termination, and a resultant difficulty in finding a subsequent job that pays as well. The young woman probably didn't think of that when she blurted that out. Or maybe she has a trust fund to fall back on, but the people around her may not, and she wasn't setting a good example.
- jupiter90000 9y ago
  I get it. If she doesn't like computer science though, maybe the termination will be part of her process to finding something she enjoys. Edit: my point is she doesn't have to pretend if she chooses not to. Who cares if that's what she chooses to do. I guess maybe the concern is she was oblivious to the impact of what she said.
aetherson 9y ago
If she wants to get out of engineering, that's something she can do at any point, on her own recognizance. She doesn't need my help to do it. But, on the other hand, if she does decide she wants to continue as an engineer in our company, she's now added a kind of negative datapoint to my evaluation of her suitability, and for something that's not entirely within her control -- it's partly within mine. It's just a bad idea for her to do this. It's not the only data point I have, and I tend to think that she'll actually do fine in engineering if she decides to continue down this path. But my job isn't to make her dreams come true, it's to find the people to make the best investments of the company's money in personnel. Let's give a not-entirely-hypothetical. Let's say that Alice is the name of the engineer who expressed regrets about going into engineering (not her real name, to be clear), and Betty is the name of another, very similar engineer, who has expressed no regrets. A tech lead spot is opening up in Alice and Betty's field. It's likely to be the only such spot in the near term. Alice and Betty are both seemingly good candidates for the job. But I have to be worried that whichever one I don't pick for the role will feel that they have no career path at our company, and quit. Now, I could pick Alice. But I know that at least at one point in the past, Alice was regretting becoming an engineer. It sure would suck if I pick Alice, Betty quits, and then six months later Alice pursues her dream to go into business. Whereas if I pick Betty, and then Alice quits, well, maybe Alice was going to get out of engineering anyway. I feel that I have to give some weight to this information I have about Alice. It's not that I dislike her or feel that she's weak for expressing doubts. It's that she's given me a reason to doubt that she'll be here long term, and if I'm going to invest a limited resource in her versus her peers, I want to do so with the most assurance possible that she'll be here long enough to make that investment worthwhile. Ask yourself if it would be fair to Betty for me to pretend I didn't know this about Alice.

greenrd 9y ago

See - even this woman who studied CS and got a job in the field ended up regretting it. And that's hardly an isolated example. I'm not saying all women who study CS regret it - far from it - but maybe James Damore was onto something?

abiox 9y ago
it's not stated why they felt that way. i'm a guy and have thought that at times myself... for me, mostly because it seems (from this angle) that MBA types can get a great/better salary and have a FAR higher income/status ceiling, all while seemingly having a much easier life than engineers (grass is always greener :P).
- greenrd 9y ago
  I can't relate to that at all. Having to stay awake in even more boring meetings? Not being able to write code any more? Why would any programmer want that - unless they didn't actually enjoy their job?
  - bokstavkjeks 9y ago
    Some people want to be a business partner more than an employee. Not that that's impossible as a software engineer, but it may be easier from a different starting point.

rajacombinator 9y ago

I’d wager if such an unimportant comment would have a serious effect on her prospects working for you, her prospects weren’t that good to begin with.

Daishiman 9y ago
It's not an unimportant comment at all.

amorphid 9y ago

> (Separately: Don't get an undergraduate degree in business. What a worthless degree.) As one who has a bachelors in business, I wouldn't my degree completely useless, but I can't think of a reason I'd recommend someone might go down that path. I would say 80% of the value I got from my degree could be achieved by taking courses in 2 or 3 classes, maybe accounting, finance, marketing, and management.

jclos 9y ago

Why not use that information to see whether there is a better place for her in your company? Ultimately it's in your (the company's) best interest to keep smart people around, and the transversal skills obtained from forming an engineer in business practices can be extremely valuable. I agree with your statement on informality - there is a very thin line that's right inbetween boring formality and obnoxious casualness and it takes some time to learn how to walk it, but I don't think your engineer's words are that bad. A good manager (even N+2) should have some idea of the career aspirations of their employees, and your employee sounds like she'd rather be moved to a different position with less computer science stuff than be promoted for more of the same thing.