7 ms·

It's the Mexican fisherman story. Sacrifice your freedom and happiness so that you can get rich so that you can have freedom and happiness. Why not just take t

It's the Mexican fisherman story. Sacrifice your freedom and happiness so that you can get rich so that you can have freedom and happiness. Why not just take the direct route?

pg 16y ago
Are you saying that there is some more direct route to working on what one wants? Or that the direct route to happiness is to give up such aspirations?
- sosuke 16y ago
  Darn it you changed your reply after I replied, this still kind of applies. Edit again, you're reply is practically evolving every time I hit update. Being free and being broke is what I think his direct route is. You can say that the pan handlers have more or less freedom than a business owner, depends on how you define the words.
  - zackattack 16y ago
    Yeah but very few people can successfully pull this off. The vast majority of broke people are still harboring some sort of grudge against society or someone from their past - it's like they have 99% of the inconveniences of abandoning materialism, but none of the benefit because they refuse to "go all the way" with it. In many ways intellectual freedom can only be found once material mastery has been achieved. There are a few famous examples from history that say otherwise, like Diogenes, but I doubt you're at his level. I also doubt you really believe in what you're saying, otherwise you would go straight to "abandoning" instead of posting on Hacker News.
    - sosuke 16y ago
      Way to much you, your and you're in that last sentence zachattack, I felt like you think I personally believe that is freedom. I don't believe in that codswallop at all I was just offering an interpretation of what he might have meant, much like his interpretation of freedom. Money is my means to the end and I won't stop till I've got enough.
    - alassehz 16y ago
      Would you really say intellectual freedom is truly achieved only once the material has been achieved? I would argue that there is a threshold for this material mastery. I don't think is necessary for it to be exorbitantly rich. I can look at researchers who enjoy their work, and are working on problems interesting to them. They usually don't have a big monetary profit. Just a thought
- hyperbovine 16y ago
  If your aspiration is simply to code interesting software projects all day long, I see no reason why being rich should be a prerequisite. Your expenses are minimal; you have no need of an office and can live anywhere. Will you require some money? Yes, and acquiring that will distract you slightly from the things you'd rather be doing. But that is a much better proposition, to me, than gambling away a decade or two of my best years on the remote chance to become wealthy and "completely" free.
  - pg 16y ago
    You're talking theoretically about the life I actually lived for the second half of my twenties, living cheaply and supporting myself with occasional bursts of consulting. It was not as easy as you make it sound. I preferred it to a regular job (which leaves you too little time to work on your own stuff), but it was extremely stressful to keep running out of money. With kids it would have been impossible. How remote the chances are of making money from a startup depend on the person. The probability ranges from a snowball's chance in hell to maybe 90% in the case of someone like Bill Gates. (He was not necessarily going to be the richest man of all, but the likelihood of him not even making enough to be independently wealthy was pretty small.) I can't tell what the chances would be in your case without meeting you, but certainly there are some people for whom starting a startup is a reasonable gamble. It definitely wouldn't take decades to find out. When startups fail they usually fail in less than 2 years.
    - hyperbovine 16y ago
      As a 27-year old, part-time consultant, it's not so theoretical :-) I agree I could never support a family living the way I do, but raising a family is at odds with maximizing your free time anyways.
      - cookiecaper 16y ago
        I don't really know what to say about this. It makes me totally face_plain. In my opinion, a goal of maximizing your personal free time at the expense of family is completely crazy. You should raise a family because its joys are immense and awesome, more immense and awesome than anything involving a huge chunk of money and/or free time (i.e. boredom, which more often than not does not end well), and I would instantly sacrifice my entrepreneurial desires if I had to choose between my wife and son and my hope of getting a lot of money independently. It's much better to have a family waiting for you after an eight-hour work day than to set your own hours and come home to an empty house.
- _delirium 16y ago
  Most hackerly types I can think of just go work on what they're interested in, without an explicit goal of making millions from it. Take the quintessential Jobs/Woz thing: Woz, the hacker of the pair, was interested in making Apple machines, but didn't give a damn about getting rich.
  - melling 16y ago
    I bet he's pretty happy now that he is rich. And Steve Jobs wouldn't have bought Pixar and created NeXT if he hadn't made a fortune at Apple before he got fired.
    - grinich 16y ago
      It's hard to say that for sure. Jobs seems to be a pretty driven guy.
      - jmtame 16y ago
        woz was quoted in return to little kingdom that jobs was driven by making money. that was when they started selling blue boxes in dorm rooms.
rick888 16y ago
"It's the Mexican fisherman story. Sacrifice your freedom and happiness so that you can get rich so that you can have freedom and happiness." and how do you suppose we do that? Freedom to me means: 1) not having to work for anyone 2) having enough time to do what I want 3) traveling around the world You need money to do all of these. To get money, you need to create something that people are willing to pay for, which takes some sacrifices. You are sacrificing some time and freedom now for complete freedom later.
- noodle 16y ago
  is that what freedom means? it sounds like you're condition of freedom is to have money, and its only freedom as long as you can pay for it. not really that free.
  - rick888 16y ago
    "is that what freedom means? it sounds like you're condition of freedom is to have money, and its only freedom as long as you can pay for it. not really that free." I suppose I could live in a cardboard box on the side of the road and quit my job, but I don't think it would be a very nice existence. Having enough money to quit your job, buy a nice house, support a family, and travel is the ultimate freedom. You don't have to answer to anyone. You may be happy with much less, and that's your choice. This is my definition of freedom. It's also why I am working on my own company. The money isn't even the point. If I could get all of the above for free, I would do it (who wouldn't?). It's what the money provides.
    - hyperbovine 16y ago
      Having enough money to quit your job, buy a nice house, support a family, and travel is the ultimate freedom. You don't have to answer to anyone. Ahh, but there's the rub. What good is a nice house and a family if you live at the office and devote every waking moment to your startup? I think those things are nice too. My point is that there are a lot of people who have a house, a loving family, and travel, who are not rich. If that is really your goal, sacrificing your happiness, health and sanity in pursuit of FU startup money is a pretty circuitous way of attaining it.
pedalpete 16y ago
I'm not familiar with the Mexican fisherman story (search didn't return anything). Was the Mexican fisherman toiling away on a fishing boat so he could become rich so he could have the freedom to spend his days fishing?
- tedkimble 16y ago
  I believe your search required "jimmy johns" where the story is often on the wall. http://pitchfevermusicacademy.blogspot.com/2008/06/great-story-i-read-at-jimmy-johns.html http://pitchfevermusicacademy.blogspot.com/2008/06/great-sto...
- krobertson 16y ago
  This was one reference to the story I'd found: http://bluehaert.wordpress.com/2006/05/02/story-the-businessman-and-the-fisherman/ http://bluehaert.wordpress.com/2006/05/02/story-the-business... Basically, a businessman runs into a fisherman by the beach and is telling him how he should get a boat, a fleet, put in hard work to make a lot of money and then he can retire, take it easy, go fishing for a couple hours each day, etc. Then the fisherman says "Isn't that what I'm doing now?" Being successful is vague. If your goal is to be happy rather than rich, your requirements are much simpler.
  - rick888 16y ago
    "Basically, a businessman runs into a fisherman by the beach and is telling him how he should get a boat, a fleet, put in hard work to make a lot of money and then he can retire, take it easy, go fishing for a couple hours each day, etc. Then the fisherman says "Isn't that what I'm doing now?" If the fisherman is already fishing and selling his fish to earn a living..isn't he already in business for himself? If he can save enough for retirement, than I see his point. If not, it's going to be pretty rough for him when he gets to an age when he wants to quit. If he had enough money, he could also move onto something else if he ever got bored of fishing. Fishing for fun is also different than fishing for a living. Money doesn't make you happy. It opens many more doors that can lead to happiness.
PawelDecowski 16y ago
For people who don't know the story: http://pauldecowski.com/ http://pauldecowski.com/ I put it up on my domain a while ago because I liked it a lot. Maybe it will be useful for once.
msort 16y ago
Because the direct route is not easy, or even possible for most people. We are human being living in a commercial society. Money is essential for us to survive. And for most people, a modest level of success is essential for happiness. I think the right approach is to strike for goals which have dual rewards: material and spiritual. Do things you love. If money doesn't come, also do things bringing in money.
JesseAldridge 16y ago
The Mexican fisherman story, in case people haven't heard it: http://www.brefigroup.co.uk/resources/view_product.do?product=12&category_sname=free http://www.brefigroup.co.uk/resources/view_product.do?produc... The main flaw is that it ignores the massive amount of wealth created by scaling up the fishing operation. The fisherman could've made a much greater contribution to the world by listening to the investment banker. We are all morally obligated to make enough money to buy a yacht with a flag saying, "Chillin' the most" and to subsequently rock that bitch up and down the coast.
- einarvollset 16y ago
  Please god tell me you're joking.
  - GVRV 16y ago
    I'm sure that is sarcasm.
- peteypao 16y ago
  Yeah, you're kidding me right?
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
Tichy 16y ago
Sitting on your ass all day staring at the see is not what everybody wants. Also, the fisherman in the story already has a successful business.

It's the Mexican fisherman story. Sacrifice your freedom and happiness so that you can get rich so that you can have freedom and happiness. Why not just take the direct route?

pg 16y ago

Are you saying that there is some more direct route to working on what one wants? Or that the direct route to happiness is to give up such aspirations?

sosuke 16y ago
Darn it you changed your reply after I replied, this still kind of applies. Edit again, you're reply is practically evolving every time I hit update. Being free and being broke is what I think his direct route is. You can say that the pan handlers have more or less freedom than a business owner, depends on how you define the words.
- zackattack 16y ago
  Yeah but very few people can successfully pull this off. The vast majority of broke people are still harboring some sort of grudge against society or someone from their past - it's like they have 99% of the inconveniences of abandoning materialism, but none of the benefit because they refuse to "go all the way" with it. In many ways intellectual freedom can only be found once material mastery has been achieved. There are a few famous examples from history that say otherwise, like Diogenes, but I doubt you're at his level. I also doubt you really believe in what you're saying, otherwise you would go straight to "abandoning" instead of posting on Hacker News.
  - sosuke 16y ago
    Way to much you, your and you're in that last sentence zachattack, I felt like you think I personally believe that is freedom. I don't believe in that codswallop at all I was just offering an interpretation of what he might have meant, much like his interpretation of freedom. Money is my means to the end and I won't stop till I've got enough.
  - alassehz 16y ago
    Would you really say intellectual freedom is truly achieved only once the material has been achieved? I would argue that there is a threshold for this material mastery. I don't think is necessary for it to be exorbitantly rich. I can look at researchers who enjoy their work, and are working on problems interesting to them. They usually don't have a big monetary profit. Just a thought
hyperbovine 16y ago
If your aspiration is simply to code interesting software projects all day long, I see no reason why being rich should be a prerequisite. Your expenses are minimal; you have no need of an office and can live anywhere. Will you require some money? Yes, and acquiring that will distract you slightly from the things you'd rather be doing. But that is a much better proposition, to me, than gambling away a decade or two of my best years on the remote chance to become wealthy and "completely" free.
- pg 16y ago
  You're talking theoretically about the life I actually lived for the second half of my twenties, living cheaply and supporting myself with occasional bursts of consulting. It was not as easy as you make it sound. I preferred it to a regular job (which leaves you too little time to work on your own stuff), but it was extremely stressful to keep running out of money. With kids it would have been impossible. How remote the chances are of making money from a startup depend on the person. The probability ranges from a snowball's chance in hell to maybe 90% in the case of someone like Bill Gates. (He was not necessarily going to be the richest man of all, but the likelihood of him not even making enough to be independently wealthy was pretty small.) I can't tell what the chances would be in your case without meeting you, but certainly there are some people for whom starting a startup is a reasonable gamble. It definitely wouldn't take decades to find out. When startups fail they usually fail in less than 2 years.
  - hyperbovine 16y ago
    As a 27-year old, part-time consultant, it's not so theoretical :-) I agree I could never support a family living the way I do, but raising a family is at odds with maximizing your free time anyways.
    - cookiecaper 16y ago
      I don't really know what to say about this. It makes me totally face_plain. In my opinion, a goal of maximizing your personal free time at the expense of family is completely crazy. You should raise a family because its joys are immense and awesome, more immense and awesome than anything involving a huge chunk of money and/or free time (i.e. boredom, which more often than not does not end well), and I would instantly sacrifice my entrepreneurial desires if I had to choose between my wife and son and my hope of getting a lot of money independently. It's much better to have a family waiting for you after an eight-hour work day than to set your own hours and come home to an empty house.
_delirium 16y ago
Most hackerly types I can think of just go work on what they're interested in, without an explicit goal of making millions from it. Take the quintessential Jobs/Woz thing: Woz, the hacker of the pair, was interested in making Apple machines, but didn't give a damn about getting rich.
- melling 16y ago
  I bet he's pretty happy now that he is rich. And Steve Jobs wouldn't have bought Pixar and created NeXT if he hadn't made a fortune at Apple before he got fired.
  - grinich 16y ago
    It's hard to say that for sure. Jobs seems to be a pretty driven guy.
    - jmtame 16y ago
      woz was quoted in return to little kingdom that jobs was driven by making money. that was when they started selling blue boxes in dorm rooms.

rick888 16y ago

"It's the Mexican fisherman story. Sacrifice your freedom and happiness so that you can get rich so that you can have freedom and happiness." and how do you suppose we do that? Freedom to me means: 1) not having to work for anyone 2) having enough time to do what I want 3) traveling around the world You need money to do all of these. To get money, you need to create something that people are willing to pay for, which takes some sacrifices. You are sacrificing some time and freedom now for complete freedom later.

noodle 16y ago
is that what freedom means? it sounds like you're condition of freedom is to have money, and its only freedom as long as you can pay for it. not really that free.
- rick888 16y ago
  "is that what freedom means? it sounds like you're condition of freedom is to have money, and its only freedom as long as you can pay for it. not really that free." I suppose I could live in a cardboard box on the side of the road and quit my job, but I don't think it would be a very nice existence. Having enough money to quit your job, buy a nice house, support a family, and travel is the ultimate freedom. You don't have to answer to anyone. You may be happy with much less, and that's your choice. This is my definition of freedom. It's also why I am working on my own company. The money isn't even the point. If I could get all of the above for free, I would do it (who wouldn't?). It's what the money provides.
  - hyperbovine 16y ago
    Having enough money to quit your job, buy a nice house, support a family, and travel is the ultimate freedom. You don't have to answer to anyone. Ahh, but there's the rub. What good is a nice house and a family if you live at the office and devote every waking moment to your startup? I think those things are nice too. My point is that there are a lot of people who have a house, a loving family, and travel, who are not rich. If that is really your goal, sacrificing your happiness, health and sanity in pursuit of FU startup money is a pretty circuitous way of attaining it.

pedalpete 16y ago

I'm not familiar with the Mexican fisherman story (search didn't return anything). Was the Mexican fisherman toiling away on a fishing boat so he could become rich so he could have the freedom to spend his days fishing?

tedkimble 16y ago
I believe your search required "jimmy johns" where the story is often on the wall. http://pitchfevermusicacademy.blogspot.com/2008/06/great-story-i-read-at-jimmy-johns.html http://pitchfevermusicacademy.blogspot.com/2008/06/great-sto...
krobertson 16y ago
This was one reference to the story I'd found: http://bluehaert.wordpress.com/2006/05/02/story-the-businessman-and-the-fisherman/ http://bluehaert.wordpress.com/2006/05/02/story-the-business... Basically, a businessman runs into a fisherman by the beach and is telling him how he should get a boat, a fleet, put in hard work to make a lot of money and then he can retire, take it easy, go fishing for a couple hours each day, etc. Then the fisherman says "Isn't that what I'm doing now?" Being successful is vague. If your goal is to be happy rather than rich, your requirements are much simpler.
- rick888 16y ago
  "Basically, a businessman runs into a fisherman by the beach and is telling him how he should get a boat, a fleet, put in hard work to make a lot of money and then he can retire, take it easy, go fishing for a couple hours each day, etc. Then the fisherman says "Isn't that what I'm doing now?" If the fisherman is already fishing and selling his fish to earn a living..isn't he already in business for himself? If he can save enough for retirement, than I see his point. If not, it's going to be pretty rough for him when he gets to an age when he wants to quit. If he had enough money, he could also move onto something else if he ever got bored of fishing. Fishing for fun is also different than fishing for a living. Money doesn't make you happy. It opens many more doors that can lead to happiness.

PawelDecowski 16y ago

For people who don't know the story: http://pauldecowski.com/ http://pauldecowski.com/ I put it up on my domain a while ago because I liked it a lot. Maybe it will be useful for once.

msort 16y ago

Because the direct route is not easy, or even possible for most people. We are human being living in a commercial society. Money is essential for us to survive. And for most people, a modest level of success is essential for happiness. I think the right approach is to strike for goals which have dual rewards: material and spiritual. Do things you love. If money doesn't come, also do things bringing in money.

JesseAldridge 16y ago

The Mexican fisherman story, in case people haven't heard it: http://www.brefigroup.co.uk/resources/view_product.do?product=12&category_sname=free http://www.brefigroup.co.uk/resources/view_product.do?produc... The main flaw is that it ignores the massive amount of wealth created by scaling up the fishing operation. The fisherman could've made a much greater contribution to the world by listening to the investment banker. We are all morally obligated to make enough money to buy a yacht with a flag saying, "Chillin' the most" and to subsequently rock that bitch up and down the coast.

einarvollset 16y ago
Please god tell me you're joking.
- GVRV 16y ago
  I'm sure that is sarcasm.
peteypao 16y ago
Yeah, you're kidding me right?

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

Tichy 16y ago

Sitting on your ass all day staring at the see is not what everybody wants. Also, the fisherman in the story already has a successful business.