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Chess champion to miss Saudi Arabia tournament over women's rights
- mikeokner 9y agoWomen's US 2016 champion Nazí Paikidze also boycotted the 2017 world championships in Iran over similar issues. FIDE (the international chess governing body) seems to be about on par with FIFA when it comes to planning events (and possible graft).
- leroy_masochist 9y ago> FIDE (the international chess governing body) seems to be about on par with FIFA when it comes to planning events (and possible graft). Ilyumzhinov is too busy hanging out with extraterrestrials to take bribes
- NelsonMinar 9y agoAs a gay person I can't safely visit Saudi Arabia either. International events should not happen there.
- ghostbrainalpha 9y agoHypothetically, is a gay person allowed to visit Saudi Arabia if they don't do anything gay while in the country? Or is a simple history of homosexuality enough to fear imprisonment?
- aptidude187 9y agoAs a person who visited SA I know for a fact that even among muslims who have homosexual inclinations, that it's not a problem unless one acts upon it or tries to 'propagate' against the established and accepted moral foundations. Not sure about the specifics of the visit rules tho, but I doubt that they would ask you about that, instead they would ask you about your religion.
- addicted 9y agoWell Saudi hypocrisy does not make the Parent any more secure when visiting SA. The fact that they are hypocritical when applying rules to themselves is not really a defense now is it?
- rayiner 9y agoSaudi criminal laws aren’t codified. In theory, the Quran is the source of law, with various royal decrees layered on top. In the Quran, it’s actual homosexual acts that are the crime. So simply being homosexual should not, in theory, get you in trouble. But in practice, the CPVPV has wide latitude. People have been arrested for flying a rainbow flag: https://www.google.com/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-man-arrested-for-flying-pretty-rainbow-flag-unaware-it-symbolised-lgbt-pride-a6955886.html%3famp https://www.google.com/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/.... People have also been arrested for their social media activity: https://www.google.com/amp/www.washingtonblade.com/2016/03/28/report-saudi-authorities-seek-death-penalty-for-coming-out/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/www.washingtonblade.com/2016/03/2...
- aptidude187 9y ago'People have been arrested for flying a rainbow flag' - Israel killed a wheelchair bound man for waving the Palestinian flag: https://www.rt.com/news/413393-palestinian-wheelchair-killed-idf/ https://www.rt.com/news/413393-palestinian-wheelchair-killed...
- unbeli 9y agoThis is bullshit, of course. He wasn't killed for waving a flag. He was killed because he was part of a violent group attacking Israeli soldiers.
- aptidude187 9y ago'Social media have been flooded with videos and photos of Abu Thurayeh a few hours before his death, sitting in his wheelchair and waving a Palestinian flag' - The evidence is crystal clear and available for any honest and rational human being. Edit: 'Hacker News be like: all evidence goes against my narrative and my political views, so I am just gonna downvote and hope it goes away'
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- abusoufiyan 9y agoKeep in mind realities of class and power exist in Saudi Arabia as well. As a guest of the World Chess Championship, you'll be given much more leeway than a regular Saudi citizen.
- creaghpatr 9y agoHow rich and/or successful do you have to be to not be imprisoned for being gay in KSA? Is there a specific level of achievement or do you fill out a waiver application?
- mcguire 9y agoApparently, there is no level to avoid being imprisoned, but if you are suitably wealthy, you will be held at the Ritz-Carlton Hotel and Detainment Facility.
- ksk 9y agoA lot of people can't visit a lot of countries. The list of people deported/denied entry into country X is too long. >International events should not happen there. Why? What is your rationale?
- kyleblarson 9y agoA pretty easy litmus test of whether a country is worth visiting: would you be comfortable standing on a corner in a major city with a sign critical of the dominant religion?
- ksk 9y agoThat is a poor test, and no travel website AFAIK uses it. Most people don't feel the need to offend someone over their personal beliefs. Its not a useful technique if your goal is to get people to be more inclusive. "Be more tolerant! BTW, F* your god ! "
- nugi 9y agoIf the point is competetion between all coumtries, excluding some is directly contrary to the goal of an international contest. I find it quite clear.
- ksk 9y agoWhich country is being excluded? I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you talking about the article or the comment or some imagined point? The article is about a player voluntarily choosing not going to a country. Its important to note that people can disagree over methods being employed to reduce discrimination.
- tzs 9y ago> Which country is being excluded? Until the very last minute, Saudi Arabia refused to issue visas to any players from Israel, Iran, or Qatar. At the last minute, they allowed players from Iran and Qatar in. They continued to refuse to allow any players from Israel in.
- dandare 9y agoIt is a great sacrifice and I absolutely supper her. Just maybe it would get more media attention if she was physically there and refused to play in abaya or the "high-necked white blouses" nonsense. Also, where is the solidarity form champions like Magnus Carlsen?
- gumby 9y ago> Also, where is the solidarity form champions like Magnus Carlsen? Really!!
- reacharavindh 9y agoThis is a great moment to show solidarity in the face to stupid and backward policies. I sincerely hope the great minds choose to boycott this tournament and support a meaningful cause.
- gumby 9y agoYes indeed! It seems the people down voting my comment don’t agree.
- scott_karana 9y agoI read your post as objecting, not agreeing. Perhaps others have the same confusion.
- gumby 9y agoThanks. May be a cultural thing.
- reitanqild 9y agoBoycotting this tournament should be a no-brainer.
- mcguire 9y agoSolidarity is one thing. $2,000,000 is another.
- jonny_eh 9y agoThe competitor from Israel was also barred from entering the country, and the chess federation was fine with that.
- bhouston 9y agoI think it is a backwards Middle Eastern country thing, Israel loves to ban people too for all sorts of ridiculous reasons as well: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.827401 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.827401 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.822554 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.822554 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/israel-bds-law-immigration-refuse-entry-activists-british-hugh-lanning-palestine-solidarity-campaign-a7630011.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/israel-bds-la... Luckily this nonsense hasn't spread to Europe and North America for the most part.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago> Luckily this nonsense hasn't spread to Europe and North America Not comparable, but we get up to shenanigans from time to time, too [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/oct/11/nasa-chinese-scientists-conference-ban https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/oct/11/nasa-chinese...
- mcguire 9y agoAs you write, not comparable, but in their defense, NASA's administrative side is pretty thoroughly hoarked. It shouldn't suprise anyone that they occasionally make idiotic decisions.
- leroy_masochist 9y agoIsrael banning people who are actively involved with the BDS movement from flying into Tel Aviv does not strike me as especially comparable to the Saudis prohibiting Israeli grandmasters from participating in a chess tournament in Riyadh. But that's just my opinion!
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- cepth 9y agoFIDE, the world chess governing body, seems to have signed a long term contract for the World Rapid and Blitz championships. (https://www.chess.com/news/view/3-year-contract-fide-saudi-arabia-potentially-illegal https://www.chess.com/news/view/3-year-contract-fide-saudi-a...). As long as it’s one country, one vote, you’re likely to get outcomes like this one, where a wealthy federation can buy off a large number of smaller federations. This is a perpetual problem in professional chess, hence the existence of proposals like this one: https://en.chessbase.com/post/one-vote-per-rated-game https://en.chessbase.com/post/one-vote-per-rated-game Edit: Also worth noting, Saudi Arabia was the ONLY bidder for this year’s championships.
- amriksohata 9y agoOn a side note Saudis high cleric banned chess for civilians how hypocritical they get to host a competition. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabias-highest-cleric-bans-chess-and-claims-game-spreads-enmity-and-hatred-a6825426.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-ar...
- ksk 9y agoThen the cleric doesn't have the power people imagine he has. It seems to be good news...
- pavel_lishin 9y agoWould it be hypocritical for Italy to host a chess tournament if the Pope banned it?
- Wildgoose 9y agoVatican City may be surrounded by Italy but it is classed as a separate country. Your comment only makes sense if you replaced Italy with the Vatican City, in which case - Yes.
- stcredzero 9y agoSo if any kind of religious or secular authority bans something, everyone from that country has to abide by that or be a "hypocrite?" Sorry, but that's illogical. Back in the day, holding inclusive events in the face of societal prejudice was an act of defiance. In the real world, progress is made by chipping away, not by grand gestures with emotional background music, followed by "The End." If you want to show that a group is being disadvantaged unfairly, then meritocratic competitions are what you want! Some women might find that participation in such action is worth wearing an abaya. Some might not. It's for them to choose, and calling one choice hypocritical strikes me as a bit reductive.
- pluma 9y agoThat's not what the argument is about at all. Presumably the religious edict is upheld by the state, so the tournament is hypocritical because it's making an exemption for a small elite of international athletes to participate in a sport that is illegal for most of the population to enjoy.
- CalChris 9y agoNakamura is also boycotting the tournament [1]. Naka is currently #2 at rapid and #4 at blitz [2]. [1] https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/fide-does-it-again-boycott-time-including-nakamura https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/fide-does-it-again-... [2] https://2700chess.com/ https://2700chess.com/
- foobaw 9y agoJust an aside but I love Nakamura and his commentaries!
- abusoufiyan 9y agoI was reading the justifications of women who are attending and they generally have 3 things to say: 1) All countries are at different places in the march towards human rights. But participating in a women's sporting event in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia is a chance to help further women's rights in those countries as more women might want to play, become very very good, and have a high profile from which to challenge the regime. Refusing because you have to wear hijab or abaya is not worth giving up that chance to help women in such countries. 2) Saudi seems to be sponsoring much more prize money and accommodations. One ranked player complained that many participants had to fund their own travel in the past, that European countries aren't willing to sponsor the tournament, and only the top 4 players received any kind of compensation at all in the past. In Saudi it is supposed to be a better prize and travel is comped. One player said that such pitiful prize compensation as in the past is no less oppressive than having to wear a hijab. 3) Only one player mentioned this but I think it was worth mentioning. She said that human and women's rights are bad in Saudi but human and women's are ignored in other countries (for example, China multiple times in the past 20 years, Russia right after its annexation of Ukraine) the championship is in, and the 'principled' chess players never speak up then. I think the last point is most revealing. Many of the players who boycott are concerned with regulations that affect them personally (I have to wear this. I won't be allowed to do this), and very few of them will ever care about the human rights violations or even women's rights violations that don't affect them. And of course we are not immune to this way of thinking either. It is easy for us to empathize when we have to go through what others go through. In China though (for example), when we are not having our family size culled and we are not being ethnically replaced with Han Chinese in our homelands, and we are not being suspiciously disappeared by the government like Ughyur Muslims, then we don't empathize enough to boycott a chess championship. We are not as up in arms about human rights and all this when it affects people who are not us. How many of us actually take our respective governments to task for their own rights violations (if you're American, a few years back, they bombed out an active, operating Red Cross Hospital, just as an example)?
- rayiner 9y ago> All countries are at different places in the march towards human rights. It’s a tightrope for sure. On one hand, you can’t completely alienate people, because then they will not engage with the rest of the world and see how life can be better. On the other hand, being too accommodating reinforces the existing power structures against domestic pressure. It signals that you can participate fully in the western international order without adopting its values. Something like refusing to hold international events in a place is a great pressure point. It’s not something like economic sanctions, which will cripple countries and make the people hate the west. At the same time, it’s an embarrassment and a source of shame to the ruling elite.
- hiram112 9y agoHow on Earth do modern feminists justify gender-segregation in something as physically neutral as chess?
- logfromblammo 9y agoAny explanation would also have to account for the genderless AIs that can be competitive at the international grandmaster level, given enough hardware power.
- agarden 9y agoThe World Championship cycle is open to women. Hou Yifan partook in the Grand Prix. I believe Judith Polgar partook in a Candidates Tournament about a decade ago. It isn't segregated. Nothing prevents a woman from becoming the World Champion. But, on the other hand, men are barred from the Women's World Championship.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]