9 ms·

How I learned to program

322 points by deafcalculus 9y ago

cabaalis 9y ago
> We were exposed to some kind of lego-related programming, uhhh, thing in school, but none of us had any idea how to do anything beyond what was in the instructions. While it was fun, it was no more educational than a video game and had a similar impact. I wonder how many of these "teach your kid STEM" toys have this result. I learned to program when my mom got me a vtech precomputer 1000 for Christmas when I was a kid. But becoming a "developer" took many years of effort. Hopefully more kids will be set on the path like I was.
- Jemmeh 9y ago
  Eh, I get that it is limited in a "Okay but how do I step out of this toy environment and actually do stuff" kind of way, but I think it teaches people how to use their logical thinking without overloading them with information. I think that almost gets taken for granted, but I did an escape room recently and it really showed me just how bad most people are at just generally putting two and two together and solving problems.
- Waterluvian 9y ago
  Same! I had a logic gates robot game for my apple II, Lego mindstorms, and FIRST robotics through high school. Which really helped because I didn't come close to the grades needed to get into CS or engineering. I didn't Hello World until my 20s, and it took years to really grok the programming world, but I think my lifelong exposure to logic and programming of sorts made all those concepts accessible outside of a classroom environment. Ie. I could understand what a python snippet was doing because I knew what a loop and conditional was.
  - anonemouse145 9y ago
    This. A logic class could do the same thing if you could get a good, modern logic class. Internalizing for loops, if-else, while, boolean, etc is a universal benefit that would help anyone break into programming. Sadly, I've taken some really bad logic classes. Usually this is because they use terrible toy languages that are artificially difficult to work with. They should just do those classes in Javascript or python or something, after they cover the old Aristotelian logic bit. (Socrates is a man, all men are mortal...) You could rig up a test suite to brute force truth tables and verify when you create correct logical statements. It would be a blast. Instead you spend all year having to derive known logical theorems from scratch. Because reasons? Example:!(x and y) == (!x or !y). I had a class where in the toy language it took a whole hour to derive that theorem. Instead, how about we have to draw out a truth table or actually use that statement? You can do that in half the time and get more from it. I've had to use that in programming all the time. You can flip if!(!x.isEmpty and !y.isEmpty) into if(y.isEmpty or x.isEmpty)... If I typed that right. Comes up all the time refactoring or simplifying logic.
    - barbersturgeon 9y ago
      Sounds like prolog or minikanren would suit this - built in search is great as long as you don't accidentally make it exponential tine complexity
    - philippejara 9y ago
      A logic class teaches logic, worrying whether people get interested in programming because of it is at best irrelevant and at worst detrimental to the subject(such as allowing the students to brute force it all, missing the point completely). That's like expecting the calculus class to foster programing interests because they use matlab. Maybe i'm missing something, but what does for-loops have to do with logic in a way that it might be part of the class?
      - abecedarius 9y ago
        As Leibniz put it, it's a goal of logic to be able to say "well, let's calculate" when you have a dispute. Truth tables are about the simplest way to calculate logic, but they don't scale. I think a good intro course could be made starting there and working up to fancier methods, explaining logic and computing together. My article https://codewords.recurse.com/issues/four/the-language-of-choice https://codewords.recurse.com/issues/four/the-language-of-ch... aimed in that general direction, though it's for people who can already program, because I wasn't ready to tackle anything more ambitious.
        philippejara 9y ago
        My problem isn't with the idea of using truth tables to solve problems or using languages to assist in the class, but with the bizarre expectation that logic classes that make you to actually use the subject matter and prove stuff in a -supposedly- scalable way are somehow not modern(whatever that means) and the "right" way to teach such logic classes is teaching the basics of control flow. You can go in a direction of explaining logic and computing together, and by what I skimmed from your article it does seems to be a cool way to tackle the problem, but that's not what someone who takes a logic class should expect from it, they should expect it from the "topics of logic in computing or something like that" class.
- c-smile 9y ago
  Sometimes you just need one joke from elders, here is my story: https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-lies-that-your-parents-told-you-as-a-kid-that-you-believed-for-longer-than-youd-like-to-admit/answer/Andrew-Fedoniouk-1?srid=CZX0 https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-lies-that-your-parents-t...
- jaequery 9y ago
  I've always felt that the "Scratch" programming that the kids are doing these days may actually get them turned off on programming. While easier to get the kids started, I think the kids quickly start to feel just how mundane and boring programming is when they are just dragging and dropping pre-set elements on their screen all day. The ones that are meant to program would flourish under a computer with just a black and white Terminal app on their disposal. But give them Scratch and I think they will be thinking of other careers.
  - mtpn 9y ago
    > The ones that are meant to program would flourish under a computer with just a black and white Terminal app on their disposal. I don't know about "meant to". I avoided writing anything but plain HTML and CSS for years because I thought I wasn't a programming type person (wasn't smart in the right way, didn't like math, hit brick walls with basic as a teenager, etc). The terminal did nothing for me and still isn't my favorite place to be, but I do really like writing little web apps that solve problems and work. Programming, like most things, is available to anybody who wants to do the work to understand it and can put in the hours to get competent. I see the risk in Scratch turning some kids off and would never suggest just providing anybody with one option for how to learn a skill. But I don't know about this "meant to program" idea. I'm more in favor of fostering the curiosity that can fuel real learning by any means that work.
    - kbsletten 9y ago
      Yeah, this "meant to" attitude seems a little be self-aggrandizing. I feel like that's a very convenient way to say, "programmers only club, no _others_ allowed." My favorite thing has been teaching scratch in middle school and realizing how non-obvious programming aptitude is. Some real "nerd"-types don't have any actual skill and others who are little socialites or behavior problems take to it with ease. Makes you realize how not special us programmers are.
    - trgn 9y ago
      HTML/CSS is the right kind of programming to introduce to kids. It teaches a lot of the cognitive skills that you need as a programmer (attention to detail, what you see is _not_ what you get, ability to abstract a problem); that combo teaches a lot of programming concepts (encapsulation, separation of concerns); and it is,last but not least, REAL and eminently useful. A lot of that lego-scratch-type-programming is completely useless once you take it out of that sandbox. HTML/CSS will be there at the heat death of the universe. HTML/CSS does not teach things like algorithms and data-structures, but it doesn't need to. It's complex enough that kids with an affinity for programming will find it stimulating, but not so complex that dumbo Timmy over there can't do at least something productive with it. And it straddles that line between nerdy-programming and design, so you can engage the creative kids as well. Family member's been teaching HTML/CSS to 14-15 year olds, with good results. Like all class topics, the engagement-distribution is a bell curve. 10% is lost like a puppy at sea, 80% is following along with varying degrees of success, and 10% are absolutely doing amazing things and taking it way beyond the class contents. One difference with the other type of kids-programming isn't that some robot scoots around the gym, but that at the end these kids are making goofy 90's websites, with bonker color-schemes and bouncing images. Parents and administration love the former. The latter only really clicks for parents with some familiarity in the domain.
- mlinksva 9y ago
  I misread "lego" as "logo" when reading the post, because that was my experience. Before having a computer at home took an extracurricular BASIC class which in hindsight I learned almost nothing from but it whet my appetite. The intermediate class had us draw stuff with Logo, which I felt was stupid, and turned me off of programming for awhile. Probably my fault, now Logo looks like an interesting language.
  - coupdejarnac 9y ago
    I just finished creating a LOGO class, and I feel it's best for elementary school aged children. If you took LOGO over the age of say 12, it probably seemed childish and useless. But for younger kids, I think they can get interested in computing with LOGO. You can do some cool stuff with LOGO like create state machines, implement sorting algorithms, and create simple games.
    - flavio81 9y ago
      >If you took LOGO over the age of say 12, it probably seemed childish and useless. Yes. However, at a fundamental level, LOGO is actually an advanced programming language.
    - jacobolus 9y ago
      Logo is a great tool to use to learn visually about basic shapes and their properties (circles, polygons, conic sections, spirals, various sorts of roulettes, ...), logic, graphs of data and functions, fractals, cellular automata, synthetic geometry including projective geometry, transformation geometry and symmetry, basic number theory, complex arithmetic, polar coordinates, trigonometry, the logarithm/exponential functions, matrix algebra, linear regression and other statistical tools (Kalman filters!), optimization, basic probability, dynamical systems, lattices, group theory, graph theory, vector calculus, mechanics, optics, electric circuits, special relativity, 3d vector graphics, searching and sorting, trees, mazes, robot planning, game AI, .... Or really anything you want, though after several years of experience students might find other tools more convenient for some types of modeling.
  - tomsmeding 9y ago
- lomnakkus 9y ago
  > vtech precomputer 1000 I had no idea that was even a thing, even though I'm definitely of your generation, though probably not in the same general area, situation, etc. You should have had an Amiga, C64, or C128 or... I'm happy that you made it, though!
- megaman22 9y ago
  I still think QBasic is one of the better ways to get people interested in programming. It starts off very simple, but you can really go a long ways with it. Plus it's got some pretty powerful, yet easy to access graphics and music capabilities built right into it. My first programming class in high school, we went from Hello World to creating an animated Christmas card, with MIDI Christmas carols accompanying it, in the first semester. QBasic might not have been the greatest language, but it had a pretty sweet IDE, fantastic live documentation, and was really just fun to play with. I feel like there ought to be a packaged up Python distribution with the same kind of attributes, but I've never really seen anything that really aced that spot the same way.
mooreds 9y ago
> hear a lot of stories like that, and I’m happy to listen because I like stories, but I don’t know that there’s anything actionable here. Avoid managers who prefer doling out punishments to helping their employees? Obvious but not actionable. Actually, the advice to avoid managers who are not helping employees is eminently actionable. It's just that the actions are either tedious or radical. Tedious steps to take, before you are in the situation: find other current and former team members on linked in and do backchannel references on the position. Radical steps to take, after you are in the situation: quit your job and find another one.
- jetcata 9y ago
  Re tedious steps, I had multiple job offers and reached out to people on LinkedIn who used to work on the teams I had offers for and got some great honest info that helped me make a decision.
  - KKKKkkkk1 9y ago
    What kind of info did you look for?
    - jetcata 9y ago
      I just asked questions like what's the team like, would you recommend working there etc.
- deleted 9y ago
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robocat 9y ago
"but that’s so obvious that it’s not even worth stating" Intelligent people I know say this or something similar. What is obvious to a smart person for something they are skilled at, is not obvious to the rest of us!
- deleted 9y ago
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- smarks 9y ago
  Thanks for mentioning this. I don't know whether or not this is related to intelligence, but it does seem to be a fairly common pattern where someone will underestimate the value of writing something down. I did notice this a couple times in danluu's article. A couple comments: 1) There's a lot of value in writing down something about one's experiences, even if the result is "obvious" to anyone else who has gone through the experience. There are likely a lot of people who HAVEN'T gone through that experience who would benefit from reading about it. 2) I worked on a project, mostly independently, for a year or so and produced something useful. To me, it seemed fairly pedestrian: some basic data structures, some ordinary algorithms, nothing particularly novel. A mentor suggested I write a conference proposal about it. I resisted, using the "it's obvious" argument. He came back and said "You've worked on this for a year, and no one else in the industry has worked on it. By definition you're the expert. It's worth a conference talk." Indeed it was, and it launched a significant portion of my career as a conference presenter. I think this is largely about the difficulty of thinking about what others think when one is too close to a topic. After working on something intensively for a time, one develops a familiarity and intuition of the knowledge about that area. When working with that understanding, things may seem "obvious" but that are totally non-obvious to someone who hasn't worked in the area. This is less about absolute intelligence per se than it is about expertise, and so it's a variation of Kay's aphorism "A change in perspective is worth 80 IQ points."
- Sinidir 9y ago
  God i absolutely hated this kind of "this should be obvious" statement made by professors in lectures. It absolutely poisens the learning atmosphere. And after 20 minutes of lecturing on a difficult topic they ask if anyone has any questions and wonder why noone raises their hand or says anything.
vinn124 9y ago
as an aside, i think dan luu's writings are some of the best on interweb: articulate, methodical, concise.
- __strisk 9y ago
  Yep! I also like the fact that it's just plaintext with no interspersed meme/pictures. Just straight information.
  - ghrifter 9y ago
    1990s internet style of blog posts or give me death
- senatorobama 9y ago
  on the contrary, I think he is a braggart who has a tendency to show off his alpha nerd credentials.
  - jacques_chester 9y ago
    We had dinner once at his suggestion. He wanted to pick my brains about where I work. He speaks a lot faster than I do, which is not something I'm used to. We exchanged Flandersian fusillades of words (including some about the relative speed of talking in different places, languages and scenarios). He's legit. We'd struggle as a programming pair, though. Both too keen to hold the lock on the talkbit.
  - krn1p4n1c 9y ago
    I worked with Dan for several years. He's one of the nicer people I've met in the industry and off the hoook smart.
- kristianp 9y ago
  I really enjoy his writing too, but I wish it was concise. The article was more of a career summary, not what the title suggests.
petra 9y ago
Anybody knows how to solve that third meta skill, of "solving hard problems"?
- drdrey 9y ago
  Some tools that can help: * break the hard problem into smaller problems (e.g. "make a car that drives itself" would really benefit from considering smaller components) * reframe the problem. Sometimes changing the perspective on a problem lets you leverage tools or techniques from related fields. For instance, there isn't much good literature on techniques for understanding obfuscated programs, much of it gets bogged down in low-level details and has a very short shelf life. But there is one field that has a lot of good literature on understanding and transforming programs: compilers. Realizing that was transformative in my own research. * go bottom-up: are there special cases that are easier to solve than the whole? Can you generalize from there? * go top-down: pretend that you could use some off-the-shelf components that would automagically solve parts of the problem. See if you can compose them into something that looks like a solution, then see how to implement them.
  - smaddox 9y ago
    Great response! Reframing the problem is an especially important and well-known technique in applied mathematics and physics. And the others can arguably be generalized into "solve the easiest part first". If the easiest part is at the bottom, start at the bottom; if it's at the top, start at the top. Keep solving the easiest part remaining until there's nothing left to solve. This inherently requires breaking the problem into achievable sub problems.
- todd8 9y ago
  First, keep solving problems. Mathematical brainteasers got me started problem solving when I was in grade school. I really like Martin Gardner's books[1] and those by Robert Smullyan[2]. These kinds of problems develop the flexibility of thought that helps find creative solutions. Actual, specific approaches to tackling tough problems are taught by the famous Hungarian mathematician George Polya in his classic book How to Solve It [3]. Discrete Mathematics is a field that covers a number of areas, but especially in counting problems (from combinatorics) and graph theory there are a number of results that are not hard to grasp but lead to beautiful solutions for real problems. There are many powerful theorems and principles in discrete math that will unlock seemingly impossible problems. Unfortunately, the books for this subject are mostly written for math majors that are interested not only the application of these results but how to prove them and consequently the books may not appeal to everyone. Perhaps something like Schaum's Outline of Discrete Mathematics would suitably cover the way to apply some of the important theorems without bogging down in the proofs. Finally, I think there is value in doing small interesting programming projects. Two older books, available used, with interesting projects are Etudes for Programmers by Wetherell [5] and Software Tools in Pascal by Kernighan and Plauger [6]. Etudes has my favorite exercise for trying out new programming languages, building an interpreter for the simple TRAC programming language; Software Tools has a number of programs in Pascal that do interesting things, try implementing the programs in your programming language--they cover a range of difficulties and the book has a nice discussion for each that explains why the programs are structured the way they are. A more advanced book, Structure and Interpretation of Programming Languages, available as a downloadable pdf [7] is a classic book for those wanting to become better programmers. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Martin-Gardner/e/B000AP8X8G/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1514351370&sr=1-2-ent https://www.amazon.com/Martin-Gardner/e/B000AP8X8G/ref=sr_tc... [2] https://www.amazon.com/Raymond-M.-Smullyan/e/B000AQ1NF0/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1514347266&sr=1-2-ent https://www.amazon.com/Raymond-M.-Smullyan/e/B000AQ1NF0/ref=... [3] https://www.amazon.com/How-Solve-Mathematical-Princeton-Science/dp/069116407X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1514347695&sr=1-1&keywords=how+to+solve+it https://www.amazon.com/How-Solve-Mathematical-Princeton-Scie... [4] https://www.amazon.com/Schaums-Outline-Discrete-Mathematics-Revised/dp/0071615865/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8 https://www.amazon.com/Schaums-Outline-Discrete-Mathematics-... [5] https://www.amazon.com/Etudes-Programmers-Charles-Wetherell/dp/0132918072/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1514350387&sr=1-1&keywords=programming+etudes https://www.amazon.com/Etudes-Programmers-Charles-Wetherell/... [6] https://www.amazon.com/Software-Tools-Pascal-Brian-Kernighan/dp/0201103427/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1514350254&sr=1-1&keywords=Software+tools+in+pascal https://www.amazon.com/Software-Tools-Pascal-Brian-Kernighan... [7] http://web.mit.edu/alexmv/6.037/sicp.pdf http://web.mit.edu/alexmv/6.037/sicp.pdf
copper_think 9y ago
My recollection is that Dan was working at Microsoft during "Third real job (2015-2017)." (He has a couple of posts in this timeframe where he refers vaguely to his employer. "Hiring Lemons" is one.) I would be interested to know what teams Dan worked on while he was at Microsoft. He says that team #1 couldn't build their source code on most days, and that while team #2 was better, they still often had broken builds in origin/master.
- pianoben 9y ago
  https://github.com/bitfunnel/bitfunnel https://github.com/bitfunnel/bitfunnel This was his second MSFT team, as I recall - I don't know that he ever publicly identified the first.
- KKKKkkkk1 9y ago
  I love the section he wrote on Microsoft. He is clearly a master of the backhanded compliment: > However, I can already tell that this experience broadened my horizons. Two examples I got out of the experience are a better understanding of how sales worked and I have a better idea of the range of processes that exist across different teams. > To the first point, the company produced some decent products backed by a world class sales team. Watching the sales team work was a revelation. The sales people would regularly go in and create sales even when the product wasn’t the best thing for customers. I’d always known that sales was at least as important as engineering, but seeing this in action was different from knowing in the abstract. > To the second point, I once wrote a blog post on build uptime where I looked at uptime data that seemed surprisingly bad to me and said > at every place I’ve worked, two 9s of reliability (99% uptime) on the build would be considered bad. That would mean that the build is failing for over three and a half days a year, or seven hours per month. Even three 9s (99.9% uptime) is about forty-five minutes of downtime a month. That’s kinda ok if there isn’t a hard system in place to prevent people from checking in bad code, but it’s quite bad for a place that’s serious about having working builds. > A number of people responded with comments like “lololol that guy has been pretty lucky in the team’s he’s worked on”. I didn’t think much of those comments until this job. At my first team on this company, we couldn’t build on most days for most of the time I was there! My second team was better, but I would regularly get broken builds when I fetched and merged from origin/master. I had no idea that companies that considered themselves serious about development could have practices like this and it’s good to have this new information.
bluedino 9y ago
His 'ineffective fumbling' and 'high school' seem to mirror my experiences. Using a bunch of mismatched books and computers with no real goals, no mentor, and no real results. However, it's amazing when you read about <insert famous programmer>. They grew up with Apple II's and Commodore 64's, but they mastered them. Or at least that's the narrative from the author of the articles that talk about them. They don't just write silly BASIC programs like the rest of us, they started using assembler and learn the machine like the back of their hand. They learn how to optimize the living crap out of their code. Maybe their schools just had better books in their libraries or they subscribed to the good magazines of the day. Or they were just that much better at programming and smarter and more focused, one of the above, or all three.
- deleted 9y ago
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- yodsanklai 9y ago
  I grew up with a Commodore 64 and then an Amiga 500. What I remember is that I had few books and a lot of time to study them. Moreover, these were much simpler computers than what we have today. Kids could understand a lot of the hardware and the assembler by themselves. On the other hand, It was harder to learn about algorithms and data structures. I didn't have access to the adequate instruction before college.
  - nurettin 9y ago
    Instead of switching to Amiga, I decided to defend my C=64 against the Amiga kids in the block by being amazing at it. That gave me an advantage in my early programming career because it taught me the discipline of persistence. I knew that bugs were solveable and existing code wasn't daunting.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  I learned programming on Trash 80s in an underfunded Mississippi High School (well, I learned some BASIC earlier). I never got interested enough to learn assembler until college, but it was enough to set me on my way.
fiatjaf 9y ago
You may think this website is old-fashioned, but it uses FLEXBOX when it should be using table layouts.
mattfrommars 9y ago
Looking back in my life when I was born a year after Tavish Armstrong, I just feel so, disappointed how my life turned out to be. I had similar dreams and hope but they didn't work out in the end. Only if I told my younger self to actually go through the Macromedia Flash book I borrowed once in high school, I would have had my first glimpse in computing. But during my early days, I never had anyone who was remotely interested in computers. I wasn't great at socializing either which would have lead me to people who were in machines. There was AP CS course at my university but I never took it only because I thought it was too hard and instead took AP Calc. Without any concept of computing or the power of programming, how can a kid get into life of software development? All the random success stories I've read of popular programmers these days, all of their younger days began with someone giving them a gift or some 'assembly' language computer and started from there. Wish the pursuit of programming caught me much earlier in life than right now, went into wrong major and always thought about programming, programming. Having friends and family who aren't into computers didn't help either until last year. So much life was wasted.
- yodsanklai 9y ago
  It's never too late! And the cool thing about programming is that you can pursue it at a high level as a hobby. Nobody can prevent you to develop cool programs during your free time.
- spraak 9y ago
  How old are you? If you are less =< 25, it's not too late. I started self studying CS then after many aimless years. Then I got my first junior position at 48k and after 3 years of raises and job changes I'm at 100k+
  - rewgs 9y ago
    I'm 27. That's too late?
    - philippejara 9y ago
      too late for what? if you enjoy programing just keep programing.
crispytx 9y ago
"I ended up at a little chip company called Centaur. I was hesitant about taking the job because the interview was the easiest interview I had at any company4, which made me wonder if they had a low hiring bar, and therefore relatively weak engineers. It turns out that, on average, that’s the best group of people I’ve ever worked with. I didn’t realize it at the time, but this would later teach me that companies that claim to have brilliant engineers because they have super hard interviews are full of it, and that the interview difficulty one-upmanship a lot of companies promote is more of a prestige play than anything else."
bikitan 9y ago
> My class had a couple of kids who already knew how to program and were making good money doing programming competitions on topcoder > High school (1996 - 2000) This does't seem right. What sorts of competitive programming sites were around that early?
- jldugger 9y ago
  whois topcoder.com | grep Creation Creation Date: 1998-12-30T05:00:00Z` archive.org sample: http://web.archive.org/web/20010401182116/http://www.topcoder.com:80/ http://web.archive.org/web/20010401182116/http://www.topcode... So plausible, but extremely early adopter. More likely would be craigslist, IMO.
Gopher5423 9y ago
If you want to learn Go Programming Language start with this site www.golangprograms.com
chefandy 9y ago
Ironically, my high school expelled me for truancy. My guidance counselor, in what I think was a hamfisted attempt to scare me straight, told me that I'd never get into college without As and Bs, so I took her word for it. Why study, or taking the SATs if my existing marks would keep me out of good 4-year colleges anyway? I had two years of terrible grades behind me, I was quickly moving up in the ranks in a food service job anyway, and I wasn't planning on going into the military, so what was the point? During school hours, I'd just sit in the computer lab learning Photoshop 2.0, HTML, and the new cutting edge thing called CSS. I'd have loved to take one of the BASIC classes because I had already worked with it a bit on my TRS-80, but they were only offered to kids who had taken AP Algebra 2. One pleasant spring day I was coming back onto campus after smoking a butt across the street, and the vice principal told me I wasn't allowed back onto school property because I was no longer a student. After a few months of just working, I went back and finished high school in a part-time night school program while working full time. Oddly, I've always thought of this as a somewhat pleasant time in my life despite my negative feelings about high school in general. A year or two after graduation, around 2000, I took a few classes in a UNIX undergrad certificate course at Northeastern. Not only did I ace the classes, but I ended up teaching my classmates more than the instructor did in the Linux class. (That was way less cool than it sounds though; he recommended everybody drop the course and ask for a full refund because he was under-qualified and knew it.) Also, the second-level C class teacher— a hardcore windows guy— emailed me asking questions about developing in a Linux environment for a few months after the class ended. It was a confidence boost which SHOULD have pushed me towards college, but I still assumed that no 4-year college would have me, and the thought of essentially trudging through two more years of high school in the form of community college was... unpalatable. I stopped taking classes before I finished the certificate because they didn't offer me anything I couldn't learn on my own— even if I did enjoy learning little-unexpected things like C-shell scripting, and advanced awk— and it wasn't going to lead to a real degree. I was much more interested in working in bars and living in shitty apartments with a million roommates with only discount pizza and malt liquor for sustenance. (wait, maybe I did go to college...) I was lucky enough to get a $10/hr job as a university library IT assistant where the systems administrator gave me a bit of flexibility with what I worked on, a bit of leeway for solving those problems, all of the tech books I wanted, and all of the scrap hardware I could muster up. I ended up learning how to use Perl, first as a systems language and then for CGI programming, honed my shell scripting skills, built a few slightly more involved internal web applications using PHP, learned how bigger networks worked, good IT practices, and lots of other cool stuff. From there I bounced around to a few higher-level support type jobs and then got my first regular software development job after that. Since then, I've tackled problems with increasing complexity and managed a few projects. Though the more 'vocational' path I took to coding instilled some good practices and a rock-solid work ethic, I feel like there's a bit of whiteboard swag that people who took a math-first, comp-sci-heavy path to coding have that I lack. As the level of complexity with my work projects increases, I sometimes struggle because I picked up a lot of the math and comp-sci knowledge magpie style without having the solid theoretical foundation to tie it all together. I thought learning a programming language without a real-world problem to solve, and no real deadlines was a slog; doing that with things like discrete math is much worse. (though I do think it's super neat.) It's pretty funny that the primary difference between me and him is that I believed a guidance counselor who told me it was impossible. Approaching 40, I realize how full of shit she was.
sdwqer 9y ago
https://i.imgur.com/vBhtqtE.png https://i.imgur.com/vBhtqtE.png [2] next step - CSS for dummies, because this is awful[1] [1] https://i.imgur.com/vBhtqtE.png https://i.imgur.com/vBhtqtE.png [2] https://i.imgur.com/vBhtqtE.png https://i.imgur.com/vBhtqtE.png
tomxor 9y ago
> In conclusion, life is messy and I don’t have any advice. That _is_ the advice :P seriously. Most advice is far too subjective to likely be applicable to yourself (because life is so messy). With one exception: "leave bad roles more quickly and stay in good roles longer", as the author mentions, it seems far too obvious, but it's not... because "bad" is actually subjective, so "not working well enough" is perhaps more accurate. Some "successful people" have never had a "not working well enough" part of their career because they are crazy lucky, and others have simply been perceptive enough to recognise it and move on. Some label this as "luck" but luck implies some objective "good", it's about chance, the chance of landing in a well fitting scenario. Rolling the dice can be painful, and knowing when it's good not always obvious. Perhaps at least knowing to look out for this even though you don't know what it will look like for you, is the only general advice?
kebman 9y ago
Pretty anecdotal, but it seems to strike a chord with a few people in here, like anecdotes tend to do... I like the HTML/CSS approach, and then tack on some JavaScript. No stupid assembler to keep track of. I've taught about 300 kids web design, and around 150 programming (rough estimate), and that's what stuck the best with the kids. Java, not so much. From JavaScript the sky's the limit. Personally I tried BASIC, but I really learned programming by going the PHP route, and onwards to Perl and Java. But the first thing I learned was HTML/CSS. If I could choose again, I'd go JavaScript first, and perhaps Python - another lovely language.
- hackcrafter 9y ago
  > Personally I tried BASIC... JavaScript is the new BASIC, in the sense that it is universally available and a great first language to pick up. It is easy to forget that self-taught programming is motivated by that intrinsic discovery factor, and JS feeds the dopamine loop!
xchip 9y ago
What is your github account? I am curious to see some of your code.

322 points by deafcalculus 9y ago

> We were exposed to some kind of lego-related programming, uhhh, thing in school, but none of us had any idea how to do anything beyond what was in the instructions. While it was fun, it was no more educational than a video game and had a similar impact. I wonder how many of these "teach your kid STEM" toys have this result. I learned to program when my mom got me a vtech precomputer 1000 for Christmas when I was a kid. But becoming a "developer" took many years of effort. Hopefully more kids will be set on the path like I was.

Jemmeh 9y ago
Eh, I get that it is limited in a "Okay but how do I step out of this toy environment and actually do stuff" kind of way, but I think it teaches people how to use their logical thinking without overloading them with information. I think that almost gets taken for granted, but I did an escape room recently and it really showed me just how bad most people are at just generally putting two and two together and solving problems.
Waterluvian 9y ago
Same! I had a logic gates robot game for my apple II, Lego mindstorms, and FIRST robotics through high school. Which really helped because I didn't come close to the grades needed to get into CS or engineering. I didn't Hello World until my 20s, and it took years to really grok the programming world, but I think my lifelong exposure to logic and programming of sorts made all those concepts accessible outside of a classroom environment. Ie. I could understand what a python snippet was doing because I knew what a loop and conditional was.
- anonemouse145 9y ago
  This. A logic class could do the same thing if you could get a good, modern logic class. Internalizing for loops, if-else, while, boolean, etc is a universal benefit that would help anyone break into programming. Sadly, I've taken some really bad logic classes. Usually this is because they use terrible toy languages that are artificially difficult to work with. They should just do those classes in Javascript or python or something, after they cover the old Aristotelian logic bit. (Socrates is a man, all men are mortal...) You could rig up a test suite to brute force truth tables and verify when you create correct logical statements. It would be a blast. Instead you spend all year having to derive known logical theorems from scratch. Because reasons? Example:!(x and y) == (!x or !y). I had a class where in the toy language it took a whole hour to derive that theorem. Instead, how about we have to draw out a truth table or actually use that statement? You can do that in half the time and get more from it. I've had to use that in programming all the time. You can flip if!(!x.isEmpty and !y.isEmpty) into if(y.isEmpty or x.isEmpty)... If I typed that right. Comes up all the time refactoring or simplifying logic.
  - barbersturgeon 9y ago
    Sounds like prolog or minikanren would suit this - built in search is great as long as you don't accidentally make it exponential tine complexity
  - philippejara 9y ago
    A logic class teaches logic, worrying whether people get interested in programming because of it is at best irrelevant and at worst detrimental to the subject(such as allowing the students to brute force it all, missing the point completely). That's like expecting the calculus class to foster programing interests because they use matlab. Maybe i'm missing something, but what does for-loops have to do with logic in a way that it might be part of the class?
    - abecedarius 9y ago
      As Leibniz put it, it's a goal of logic to be able to say "well, let's calculate" when you have a dispute. Truth tables are about the simplest way to calculate logic, but they don't scale. I think a good intro course could be made starting there and working up to fancier methods, explaining logic and computing together. My article https://codewords.recurse.com/issues/four/the-language-of-choice https://codewords.recurse.com/issues/four/the-language-of-ch... aimed in that general direction, though it's for people who can already program, because I wasn't ready to tackle anything more ambitious.
      - philippejara 9y ago
        My problem isn't with the idea of using truth tables to solve problems or using languages to assist in the class, but with the bizarre expectation that logic classes that make you to actually use the subject matter and prove stuff in a -supposedly- scalable way are somehow not modern(whatever that means) and the "right" way to teach such logic classes is teaching the basics of control flow. You can go in a direction of explaining logic and computing together, and by what I skimmed from your article it does seems to be a cool way to tackle the problem, but that's not what someone who takes a logic class should expect from it, they should expect it from the "topics of logic in computing or something like that" class.
c-smile 9y ago
Sometimes you just need one joke from elders, here is my story: https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-lies-that-your-parents-told-you-as-a-kid-that-you-believed-for-longer-than-youd-like-to-admit/answer/Andrew-Fedoniouk-1?srid=CZX0 https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-lies-that-your-parents-t...
jaequery 9y ago
I've always felt that the "Scratch" programming that the kids are doing these days may actually get them turned off on programming. While easier to get the kids started, I think the kids quickly start to feel just how mundane and boring programming is when they are just dragging and dropping pre-set elements on their screen all day. The ones that are meant to program would flourish under a computer with just a black and white Terminal app on their disposal. But give them Scratch and I think they will be thinking of other careers.
- mtpn 9y ago
  > The ones that are meant to program would flourish under a computer with just a black and white Terminal app on their disposal. I don't know about "meant to". I avoided writing anything but plain HTML and CSS for years because I thought I wasn't a programming type person (wasn't smart in the right way, didn't like math, hit brick walls with basic as a teenager, etc). The terminal did nothing for me and still isn't my favorite place to be, but I do really like writing little web apps that solve problems and work. Programming, like most things, is available to anybody who wants to do the work to understand it and can put in the hours to get competent. I see the risk in Scratch turning some kids off and would never suggest just providing anybody with one option for how to learn a skill. But I don't know about this "meant to program" idea. I'm more in favor of fostering the curiosity that can fuel real learning by any means that work.
  - kbsletten 9y ago
    Yeah, this "meant to" attitude seems a little be self-aggrandizing. I feel like that's a very convenient way to say, "programmers only club, no _others_ allowed." My favorite thing has been teaching scratch in middle school and realizing how non-obvious programming aptitude is. Some real "nerd"-types don't have any actual skill and others who are little socialites or behavior problems take to it with ease. Makes you realize how not special us programmers are.
  - trgn 9y ago
    HTML/CSS is the right kind of programming to introduce to kids. It teaches a lot of the cognitive skills that you need as a programmer (attention to detail, what you see is _not_ what you get, ability to abstract a problem); that combo teaches a lot of programming concepts (encapsulation, separation of concerns); and it is,last but not least, REAL and eminently useful. A lot of that lego-scratch-type-programming is completely useless once you take it out of that sandbox. HTML/CSS will be there at the heat death of the universe. HTML/CSS does not teach things like algorithms and data-structures, but it doesn't need to. It's complex enough that kids with an affinity for programming will find it stimulating, but not so complex that dumbo Timmy over there can't do at least something productive with it. And it straddles that line between nerdy-programming and design, so you can engage the creative kids as well. Family member's been teaching HTML/CSS to 14-15 year olds, with good results. Like all class topics, the engagement-distribution is a bell curve. 10% is lost like a puppy at sea, 80% is following along with varying degrees of success, and 10% are absolutely doing amazing things and taking it way beyond the class contents. One difference with the other type of kids-programming isn't that some robot scoots around the gym, but that at the end these kids are making goofy 90's websites, with bonker color-schemes and bouncing images. Parents and administration love the former. The latter only really clicks for parents with some familiarity in the domain.
mlinksva 9y ago
I misread "lego" as "logo" when reading the post, because that was my experience. Before having a computer at home took an extracurricular BASIC class which in hindsight I learned almost nothing from but it whet my appetite. The intermediate class had us draw stuff with Logo, which I felt was stupid, and turned me off of programming for awhile. Probably my fault, now Logo looks like an interesting language.
- coupdejarnac 9y ago
  I just finished creating a LOGO class, and I feel it's best for elementary school aged children. If you took LOGO over the age of say 12, it probably seemed childish and useless. But for younger kids, I think they can get interested in computing with LOGO. You can do some cool stuff with LOGO like create state machines, implement sorting algorithms, and create simple games.
  - flavio81 9y ago
    >If you took LOGO over the age of say 12, it probably seemed childish and useless. Yes. However, at a fundamental level, LOGO is actually an advanced programming language.
  - jacobolus 9y ago
    Logo is a great tool to use to learn visually about basic shapes and their properties (circles, polygons, conic sections, spirals, various sorts of roulettes, ...), logic, graphs of data and functions, fractals, cellular automata, synthetic geometry including projective geometry, transformation geometry and symmetry, basic number theory, complex arithmetic, polar coordinates, trigonometry, the logarithm/exponential functions, matrix algebra, linear regression and other statistical tools (Kalman filters!), optimization, basic probability, dynamical systems, lattices, group theory, graph theory, vector calculus, mechanics, optics, electric circuits, special relativity, 3d vector graphics, searching and sorting, trees, mazes, robot planning, game AI, .... Or really anything you want, though after several years of experience students might find other tools more convenient for some types of modeling.
- tomsmeding 9y ago
lomnakkus 9y ago
> vtech precomputer 1000 I had no idea that was even a thing, even though I'm definitely of your generation, though probably not in the same general area, situation, etc. You should have had an Amiga, C64, or C128 or... I'm happy that you made it, though!
megaman22 9y ago
I still think QBasic is one of the better ways to get people interested in programming. It starts off very simple, but you can really go a long ways with it. Plus it's got some pretty powerful, yet easy to access graphics and music capabilities built right into it. My first programming class in high school, we went from Hello World to creating an animated Christmas card, with MIDI Christmas carols accompanying it, in the first semester. QBasic might not have been the greatest language, but it had a pretty sweet IDE, fantastic live documentation, and was really just fun to play with. I feel like there ought to be a packaged up Python distribution with the same kind of attributes, but I've never really seen anything that really aced that spot the same way.

mooreds 9y ago

> hear a lot of stories like that, and I’m happy to listen because I like stories, but I don’t know that there’s anything actionable here. Avoid managers who prefer doling out punishments to helping their employees? Obvious but not actionable. Actually, the advice to avoid managers who are not helping employees is eminently actionable. It's just that the actions are either tedious or radical. Tedious steps to take, before you are in the situation: find other current and former team members on linked in and do backchannel references on the position. Radical steps to take, after you are in the situation: quit your job and find another one.

jetcata 9y ago
Re tedious steps, I had multiple job offers and reached out to people on LinkedIn who used to work on the teams I had offers for and got some great honest info that helped me make a decision.
- KKKKkkkk1 9y ago
  What kind of info did you look for?
  - jetcata 9y ago
    I just asked questions like what's the team like, would you recommend working there etc.
deleted 9y ago
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robocat 9y ago

"but that’s so obvious that it’s not even worth stating" Intelligent people I know say this or something similar. What is obvious to a smart person for something they are skilled at, is not obvious to the rest of us!

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smarks 9y ago
Thanks for mentioning this. I don't know whether or not this is related to intelligence, but it does seem to be a fairly common pattern where someone will underestimate the value of writing something down. I did notice this a couple times in danluu's article. A couple comments: 1) There's a lot of value in writing down something about one's experiences, even if the result is "obvious" to anyone else who has gone through the experience. There are likely a lot of people who HAVEN'T gone through that experience who would benefit from reading about it. 2) I worked on a project, mostly independently, for a year or so and produced something useful. To me, it seemed fairly pedestrian: some basic data structures, some ordinary algorithms, nothing particularly novel. A mentor suggested I write a conference proposal about it. I resisted, using the "it's obvious" argument. He came back and said "You've worked on this for a year, and no one else in the industry has worked on it. By definition you're the expert. It's worth a conference talk." Indeed it was, and it launched a significant portion of my career as a conference presenter. I think this is largely about the difficulty of thinking about what others think when one is too close to a topic. After working on something intensively for a time, one develops a familiarity and intuition of the knowledge about that area. When working with that understanding, things may seem "obvious" but that are totally non-obvious to someone who hasn't worked in the area. This is less about absolute intelligence per se than it is about expertise, and so it's a variation of Kay's aphorism "A change in perspective is worth 80 IQ points."
Sinidir 9y ago
God i absolutely hated this kind of "this should be obvious" statement made by professors in lectures. It absolutely poisens the learning atmosphere. And after 20 minutes of lecturing on a difficult topic they ask if anyone has any questions and wonder why noone raises their hand or says anything.

vinn124 9y ago

as an aside, i think dan luu's writings are some of the best on interweb: articulate, methodical, concise.

__strisk 9y ago
Yep! I also like the fact that it's just plaintext with no interspersed meme/pictures. Just straight information.
- ghrifter 9y ago
  1990s internet style of blog posts or give me death
senatorobama 9y ago
on the contrary, I think he is a braggart who has a tendency to show off his alpha nerd credentials.
- jacques_chester 9y ago
  We had dinner once at his suggestion. He wanted to pick my brains about where I work. He speaks a lot faster than I do, which is not something I'm used to. We exchanged Flandersian fusillades of words (including some about the relative speed of talking in different places, languages and scenarios). He's legit. We'd struggle as a programming pair, though. Both too keen to hold the lock on the talkbit.
- krn1p4n1c 9y ago
  I worked with Dan for several years. He's one of the nicer people I've met in the industry and off the hoook smart.
kristianp 9y ago
I really enjoy his writing too, but I wish it was concise. The article was more of a career summary, not what the title suggests.

petra 9y ago

Anybody knows how to solve that third meta skill, of "solving hard problems"?

drdrey 9y ago
Some tools that can help: * break the hard problem into smaller problems (e.g. "make a car that drives itself" would really benefit from considering smaller components) * reframe the problem. Sometimes changing the perspective on a problem lets you leverage tools or techniques from related fields. For instance, there isn't much good literature on techniques for understanding obfuscated programs, much of it gets bogged down in low-level details and has a very short shelf life. But there is one field that has a lot of good literature on understanding and transforming programs: compilers. Realizing that was transformative in my own research. * go bottom-up: are there special cases that are easier to solve than the whole? Can you generalize from there? * go top-down: pretend that you could use some off-the-shelf components that would automagically solve parts of the problem. See if you can compose them into something that looks like a solution, then see how to implement them.
- smaddox 9y ago
  Great response! Reframing the problem is an especially important and well-known technique in applied mathematics and physics. And the others can arguably be generalized into "solve the easiest part first". If the easiest part is at the bottom, start at the bottom; if it's at the top, start at the top. Keep solving the easiest part remaining until there's nothing left to solve. This inherently requires breaking the problem into achievable sub problems.
todd8 9y ago
First, keep solving problems. Mathematical brainteasers got me started problem solving when I was in grade school. I really like Martin Gardner's books[1] and those by Robert Smullyan[2]. These kinds of problems develop the flexibility of thought that helps find creative solutions. Actual, specific approaches to tackling tough problems are taught by the famous Hungarian mathematician George Polya in his classic book How to Solve It [3]. Discrete Mathematics is a field that covers a number of areas, but especially in counting problems (from combinatorics) and graph theory there are a number of results that are not hard to grasp but lead to beautiful solutions for real problems. There are many powerful theorems and principles in discrete math that will unlock seemingly impossible problems. Unfortunately, the books for this subject are mostly written for math majors that are interested not only the application of these results but how to prove them and consequently the books may not appeal to everyone. Perhaps something like Schaum's Outline of Discrete Mathematics would suitably cover the way to apply some of the important theorems without bogging down in the proofs. Finally, I think there is value in doing small interesting programming projects. Two older books, available used, with interesting projects are Etudes for Programmers by Wetherell [5] and Software Tools in Pascal by Kernighan and Plauger [6]. Etudes has my favorite exercise for trying out new programming languages, building an interpreter for the simple TRAC programming language; Software Tools has a number of programs in Pascal that do interesting things, try implementing the programs in your programming language--they cover a range of difficulties and the book has a nice discussion for each that explains why the programs are structured the way they are. A more advanced book, Structure and Interpretation of Programming Languages, available as a downloadable pdf [7] is a classic book for those wanting to become better programmers. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Martin-Gardner/e/B000AP8X8G/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1514351370&sr=1-2-ent https://www.amazon.com/Martin-Gardner/e/B000AP8X8G/ref=sr_tc... [2] https://www.amazon.com/Raymond-M.-Smullyan/e/B000AQ1NF0/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1514347266&sr=1-2-ent https://www.amazon.com/Raymond-M.-Smullyan/e/B000AQ1NF0/ref=... [3] https://www.amazon.com/How-Solve-Mathematical-Princeton-Science/dp/069116407X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1514347695&sr=1-1&keywords=how+to+solve+it https://www.amazon.com/How-Solve-Mathematical-Princeton-Scie... [4] https://www.amazon.com/Schaums-Outline-Discrete-Mathematics-Revised/dp/0071615865/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8 https://www.amazon.com/Schaums-Outline-Discrete-Mathematics-... [5] https://www.amazon.com/Etudes-Programmers-Charles-Wetherell/dp/0132918072/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1514350387&sr=1-1&keywords=programming+etudes https://www.amazon.com/Etudes-Programmers-Charles-Wetherell/... [6] https://www.amazon.com/Software-Tools-Pascal-Brian-Kernighan/dp/0201103427/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1514350254&sr=1-1&keywords=Software+tools+in+pascal https://www.amazon.com/Software-Tools-Pascal-Brian-Kernighan... [7] http://web.mit.edu/alexmv/6.037/sicp.pdf http://web.mit.edu/alexmv/6.037/sicp.pdf

copper_think 9y ago

My recollection is that Dan was working at Microsoft during "Third real job (2015-2017)." (He has a couple of posts in this timeframe where he refers vaguely to his employer. "Hiring Lemons" is one.) I would be interested to know what teams Dan worked on while he was at Microsoft. He says that team #1 couldn't build their source code on most days, and that while team #2 was better, they still often had broken builds in origin/master.

pianoben 9y ago
https://github.com/bitfunnel/bitfunnel https://github.com/bitfunnel/bitfunnel This was his second MSFT team, as I recall - I don't know that he ever publicly identified the first.
KKKKkkkk1 9y ago
I love the section he wrote on Microsoft. He is clearly a master of the backhanded compliment: > However, I can already tell that this experience broadened my horizons. Two examples I got out of the experience are a better understanding of how sales worked and I have a better idea of the range of processes that exist across different teams. > To the first point, the company produced some decent products backed by a world class sales team. Watching the sales team work was a revelation. The sales people would regularly go in and create sales even when the product wasn’t the best thing for customers. I’d always known that sales was at least as important as engineering, but seeing this in action was different from knowing in the abstract. > To the second point, I once wrote a blog post on build uptime where I looked at uptime data that seemed surprisingly bad to me and said > at every place I’ve worked, two 9s of reliability (99% uptime) on the build would be considered bad. That would mean that the build is failing for over three and a half days a year, or seven hours per month. Even three 9s (99.9% uptime) is about forty-five minutes of downtime a month. That’s kinda ok if there isn’t a hard system in place to prevent people from checking in bad code, but it’s quite bad for a place that’s serious about having working builds. > A number of people responded with comments like “lololol that guy has been pretty lucky in the team’s he’s worked on”. I didn’t think much of those comments until this job. At my first team on this company, we couldn’t build on most days for most of the time I was there! My second team was better, but I would regularly get broken builds when I fetched and merged from origin/master. I had no idea that companies that considered themselves serious about development could have practices like this and it’s good to have this new information.

bluedino 9y ago

His 'ineffective fumbling' and 'high school' seem to mirror my experiences. Using a bunch of mismatched books and computers with no real goals, no mentor, and no real results. However, it's amazing when you read about <insert famous programmer>. They grew up with Apple II's and Commodore 64's, but they mastered them. Or at least that's the narrative from the author of the articles that talk about them. They don't just write silly BASIC programs like the rest of us, they started using assembler and learn the machine like the back of their hand. They learn how to optimize the living crap out of their code. Maybe their schools just had better books in their libraries or they subscribed to the good magazines of the day. Or they were just that much better at programming and smarter and more focused, one of the above, or all three.

deleted 9y ago
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yodsanklai 9y ago
I grew up with a Commodore 64 and then an Amiga 500. What I remember is that I had few books and a lot of time to study them. Moreover, these were much simpler computers than what we have today. Kids could understand a lot of the hardware and the assembler by themselves. On the other hand, It was harder to learn about algorithms and data structures. I didn't have access to the adequate instruction before college.
- nurettin 9y ago
  Instead of switching to Amiga, I decided to defend my C=64 against the Amiga kids in the block by being amazing at it. That gave me an advantage in my early programming career because it taught me the discipline of persistence. I knew that bugs were solveable and existing code wasn't daunting.
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
I learned programming on Trash 80s in an underfunded Mississippi High School (well, I learned some BASIC earlier). I never got interested enough to learn assembler until college, but it was enough to set me on my way.

fiatjaf 9y ago

You may think this website is old-fashioned, but it uses FLEXBOX when it should be using table layouts.

mattfrommars 9y ago

Looking back in my life when I was born a year after Tavish Armstrong, I just feel so, disappointed how my life turned out to be. I had similar dreams and hope but they didn't work out in the end. Only if I told my younger self to actually go through the Macromedia Flash book I borrowed once in high school, I would have had my first glimpse in computing. But during my early days, I never had anyone who was remotely interested in computers. I wasn't great at socializing either which would have lead me to people who were in machines. There was AP CS course at my university but I never took it only because I thought it was too hard and instead took AP Calc. Without any concept of computing or the power of programming, how can a kid get into life of software development? All the random success stories I've read of popular programmers these days, all of their younger days began with someone giving them a gift or some 'assembly' language computer and started from there. Wish the pursuit of programming caught me much earlier in life than right now, went into wrong major and always thought about programming, programming. Having friends and family who aren't into computers didn't help either until last year. So much life was wasted.

yodsanklai 9y ago
It's never too late! And the cool thing about programming is that you can pursue it at a high level as a hobby. Nobody can prevent you to develop cool programs during your free time.
spraak 9y ago
How old are you? If you are less =< 25, it's not too late. I started self studying CS then after many aimless years. Then I got my first junior position at 48k and after 3 years of raises and job changes I'm at 100k+
- rewgs 9y ago
  I'm 27. That's too late?
  - philippejara 9y ago
    too late for what? if you enjoy programing just keep programing.

crispytx 9y ago

"I ended up at a little chip company called Centaur. I was hesitant about taking the job because the interview was the easiest interview I had at any company4, which made me wonder if they had a low hiring bar, and therefore relatively weak engineers. It turns out that, on average, that’s the best group of people I’ve ever worked with. I didn’t realize it at the time, but this would later teach me that companies that claim to have brilliant engineers because they have super hard interviews are full of it, and that the interview difficulty one-upmanship a lot of companies promote is more of a prestige play than anything else."

bikitan 9y ago

> My class had a couple of kids who already knew how to program and were making good money doing programming competitions on topcoder > High school (1996 - 2000) This does't seem right. What sorts of competitive programming sites were around that early?

jldugger 9y ago
whois topcoder.com | grep Creation Creation Date: 1998-12-30T05:00:00Z` archive.org sample: http://web.archive.org/web/20010401182116/http://www.topcoder.com:80/ http://web.archive.org/web/20010401182116/http://www.topcode... So plausible, but extremely early adopter. More likely would be craigslist, IMO.

Gopher5423 9y ago

If you want to learn Go Programming Language start with this site www.golangprograms.com

chefandy 9y ago

Ironically, my high school expelled me for truancy. My guidance counselor, in what I think was a hamfisted attempt to scare me straight, told me that I'd never get into college without As and Bs, so I took her word for it. Why study, or taking the SATs if my existing marks would keep me out of good 4-year colleges anyway? I had two years of terrible grades behind me, I was quickly moving up in the ranks in a food service job anyway, and I wasn't planning on going into the military, so what was the point? During school hours, I'd just sit in the computer lab learning Photoshop 2.0, HTML, and the new cutting edge thing called CSS. I'd have loved to take one of the BASIC classes because I had already worked with it a bit on my TRS-80, but they were only offered to kids who had taken AP Algebra 2. One pleasant spring day I was coming back onto campus after smoking a butt across the street, and the vice principal told me I wasn't allowed back onto school property because I was no longer a student. After a few months of just working, I went back and finished high school in a part-time night school program while working full time. Oddly, I've always thought of this as a somewhat pleasant time in my life despite my negative feelings about high school in general. A year or two after graduation, around 2000, I took a few classes in a UNIX undergrad certificate course at Northeastern. Not only did I ace the classes, but I ended up teaching my classmates more than the instructor did in the Linux class. (That was way less cool than it sounds though; he recommended everybody drop the course and ask for a full refund because he was under-qualified and knew it.) Also, the second-level C class teacher— a hardcore windows guy— emailed me asking questions about developing in a Linux environment for a few months after the class ended. It was a confidence boost which SHOULD have pushed me towards college, but I still assumed that no 4-year college would have me, and the thought of essentially trudging through two more years of high school in the form of community college was... unpalatable. I stopped taking classes before I finished the certificate because they didn't offer me anything I couldn't learn on my own— even if I did enjoy learning little-unexpected things like C-shell scripting, and advanced awk— and it wasn't going to lead to a real degree. I was much more interested in working in bars and living in shitty apartments with a million roommates with only discount pizza and malt liquor for sustenance. (wait, maybe I did go to college...) I was lucky enough to get a $10/hr job as a university library IT assistant where the systems administrator gave me a bit of flexibility with what I worked on, a bit of leeway for solving those problems, all of the tech books I wanted, and all of the scrap hardware I could muster up. I ended up learning how to use Perl, first as a systems language and then for CGI programming, honed my shell scripting skills, built a few slightly more involved internal web applications using PHP, learned how bigger networks worked, good IT practices, and lots of other cool stuff. From there I bounced around to a few higher-level support type jobs and then got my first regular software development job after that. Since then, I've tackled problems with increasing complexity and managed a few projects. Though the more 'vocational' path I took to coding instilled some good practices and a rock-solid work ethic, I feel like there's a bit of whiteboard swag that people who took a math-first, comp-sci-heavy path to coding have that I lack. As the level of complexity with my work projects increases, I sometimes struggle because I picked up a lot of the math and comp-sci knowledge magpie style without having the solid theoretical foundation to tie it all together. I thought learning a programming language without a real-world problem to solve, and no real deadlines was a slog; doing that with things like discrete math is much worse. (though I do think it's super neat.) It's pretty funny that the primary difference between me and him is that I believed a guidance counselor who told me it was impossible. Approaching 40, I realize how full of shit she was.

sdwqer 9y ago

https://i.imgur.com/vBhtqtE.png https://i.imgur.com/vBhtqtE.png [2] next step - CSS for dummies, because this is awful[1] [1] https://i.imgur.com/vBhtqtE.png https://i.imgur.com/vBhtqtE.png [2] https://i.imgur.com/vBhtqtE.png https://i.imgur.com/vBhtqtE.png

tomxor 9y ago

> In conclusion, life is messy and I don’t have any advice. That _is_ the advice :P seriously. Most advice is far too subjective to likely be applicable to yourself (because life is so messy). With one exception: "leave bad roles more quickly and stay in good roles longer", as the author mentions, it seems far too obvious, but it's not... because "bad" is actually subjective, so "not working well enough" is perhaps more accurate. Some "successful people" have never had a "not working well enough" part of their career because they are crazy lucky, and others have simply been perceptive enough to recognise it and move on. Some label this as "luck" but luck implies some objective "good", it's about chance, the chance of landing in a well fitting scenario. Rolling the dice can be painful, and knowing when it's good not always obvious. Perhaps at least knowing to look out for this even though you don't know what it will look like for you, is the only general advice?

kebman 9y ago

Pretty anecdotal, but it seems to strike a chord with a few people in here, like anecdotes tend to do... I like the HTML/CSS approach, and then tack on some JavaScript. No stupid assembler to keep track of. I've taught about 300 kids web design, and around 150 programming (rough estimate), and that's what stuck the best with the kids. Java, not so much. From JavaScript the sky's the limit. Personally I tried BASIC, but I really learned programming by going the PHP route, and onwards to Perl and Java. But the first thing I learned was HTML/CSS. If I could choose again, I'd go JavaScript first, and perhaps Python - another lovely language.

hackcrafter 9y ago
> Personally I tried BASIC... JavaScript is the new BASIC, in the sense that it is universally available and a great first language to pick up. It is easy to forget that self-taught programming is motivated by that intrinsic discovery factor, and JS feeds the dopamine loop!

xchip 9y ago

What is your github account? I am curious to see some of your code.