8 ms·

It seems like a good first world problem to have, begging for engineers to come up with an elegant solution! What can a country do with occasional excess power

It seems like a good first world problem to have, begging for engineers to come up with an elegant solution! What can a country do with occasional excess power like this? * Communal/City water pumps run only during periods of excess power in a week * City managed parking buildings that charge electric vehicles for free during these periods * Heck city/country runs a data center that would "turn ON" servers only during periods of excess power in grids - to be used for public purpose data munging! * Run an internet archiver that spins up crawlers only during periods of excessive power.. * Use the excess power to run air purifiers or CO2 absorbers or something else cool for the environment that we would not run otherwise.. What would YOU do if you had free power?

Polyisoprene 9y ago
Bitcoin-mining
- Robotbeat 9y ago
  I doubt it. Looking at bitcoin mining hardware, from what I can tell is that ASIC rigs cost about $2-5 per Watt of energy consumed, let's say $4/Watt. Since one might guess that the economic lifetime of ASIC hardware is approximately, say, 3 years (and that's being pretty gracious), then the capital cost of your bitcoin mining rig is about 15 cents per kWh IF YOU OPERATE IT CONSTANTLY. ...but if you only operate it the 25 percent of the time that electricity is free or negative or something, then the capital cost per Watt is like 60 cents per kWh. Residential electricity is about 11 cents per Watt. Industrial electricity is about 7 cents per Watt, and cheaper in places like the Northwest US with lots of hydro power. So it doesn't really make sense to buy ASIC hardware and idle it most of the time. You're better off paying even residential electricity rates and operating 100% of the time. If you have access to wholesale/industrial electricity rates, then it makes even less sense to idle your mining hardware most the time. It MAY make sense to idle the hardware if prices spike, but if you're not operating your hardware the vast majority of the time, then you're not operating cost-optimally. This point is generally true and applies to other proposed demand-response energy-sinks like hydrogen production: if your capital-cost-per-watt of demand is not very low, then it doesn't make sense to idle production. Capital cost of electrolysis should be the primary focus of any large-scale effort to leverage renewably produced hydrogen, or there's no way to compete IMHO.
  - makomk 9y ago
    Well, the main thing constraining the economic lifetime of ASIC mining hardware is that eventually older generations of hardware cost more to in power to operate than they make... but if power costs go negative, that's not necessarily true anymore.
    - Robotbeat 9y ago
      Good point. That's why I said it doesn't make sense to /buy/ (new) ASIC mining hardware if your intent is to idle it. But if it's basically free because it's obsolete, then yeah, it may make sense.
paulryanrogers 9y ago
Folding at home
dragontamer 9y ago
The obvious choice is to charge a battery, where a "battery" can be Lithium Ion, Pumped Hydro, Compressed Air (see CAES), or even rocks on an train that rolls up a hill during negative-power and rolls down a hill during positive power costs (see ARES).
toomuchtodo 9y ago
> What would YOU do if you had free power? Build and run a factory that made more solar panels. Enough solar to power civilization, any expected consumption growth, as well as power to capture atmospheric CO2 and sink it underground.
- shagie 9y ago
  With the current structure of the electrical system, this actually causes problems in isolated markets. In Hawaii, there are sections of the grid that are oversupplying 250% of what it should take and causing problems with the interconnect getting power from regions that it wasn't built to handle. https://www.utilitydive.com/news/an-embarrassment-of-riches-maui-shows-why-renewables-curtailment-isnt-all/419023/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/an-embarrassment-of-riches-... 100% renewable is great if it can be sustained. But if there is too much power put into the grid, that because an issue. Also it means that other systems need to shut down (its really hard to shut down the distributed solar on rooftops of residential units). Its really hard to curtail an oil plant - they don't shut down or power up quickly. And neither wind nor solar can provide the base power generation necessary in Hawaii for extended night use currently (it needs a sizable power storage system). Load shifting is something that needs to be looked into more (and that is what Tesla is doing with their battery packs). https://electronics.stackexchange.com/q/117437 https://electronics.stackexchange.com/q/117437 is a good read.
- SahAssar 9y ago
  If the limiting factor in manufacturing solar panels was power then it would be an exponential industry (manufacture 1 solar panel, use it's power to manufacture 2 and so on). I'm pretty sure the limiting factor is the materials and the machinery involved.
  - bufferoverflow 9y ago
    If you can automate all the steps, it's all just the energy and the time. Though solar panels require quite a wide supply chain, it will take some time to fully automate.
dukeflukem 9y ago
The problem with some of these suggestions here and in the replies is that you need capital equipment to lay idle when power becomes expensive again. Its probably more efficient to run it all the time rather than only when there is surplus power. You'd need applications where the equipment is dirt cheap, lasts and doesn't go obsolete due to better designs.
tscs37 9y ago
Pump water into a dam with water turbines. If later power is needed you can open up the turbines more. IIRC this has about 80% efficiency and a big dam can soak up a lot of this power without problem.
- reacharavindh 9y ago
  Yeah that's a relatively long term storage.. like seasonal. For short spikes, it'd be easier to have local dispensation.
  - tscs37 9y ago
    "Pumpspeicherkraftwerke" (pump storage power plant) are a thing in germany and largely they are used on minute basis, not seasonal, going from 0 Watts to a Gigawatt in about 20 minutes and probably faster if really necessary. [0] Power can be stored and emited within a few minutes to the extend that they are used to compensate power spikes or drops in the grid already, for exactly the scenario described in the OP. 0: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Pumpspeicherkraftwerk.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Pumpspei...
    - reacharavindh 9y ago
      I stand corrected. It is really cool that we can use water storage that quickly and efficiently.
    - dragontamer 9y ago
      USA has these too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_Sta... As far as I know, its used for "daily" fluctuations. Coal and Nuclear power plants in the region don't want to turn off at night: its more efficient for them to stay hot and keep the turbines going through the night (even when no power is being used). So the Bath County Pumped Storage dam stores energy at night, and provides it in the day, covering a region that contains 13 States. I don't know the response time of the system, but I'd expect it to be similar to the German system of "within minutes" or so.
imhoguy 9y ago
- Pumped storage hydroelectricity grid [1] - Wall socket receiver for power-line communication [2] to schedule energy consuming devices at homes/factories - dishwashers, washing machines, heaters, freezers - this may be not to easy to match demand but at least that could be scheduled in some reasonable time range like "within 4 hours" etc. Also I would be fine to "store" cold with freezers down to -50 deg C. The receiver could display electricity bill saving to incentivise users :) - Subsidized home batteries (like Powerwall but with no need for solar part) which could be controlled by electricity supplier to balance usage - also with some power-line communication. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricit... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-line_communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-line_communication
oh_sigh 9y ago
Smelt aluminum
omarforgotpwd 9y ago
Store it in a set of batteries?
ohthehugemanate 9y ago
But it's not free power. That's just the ny times speaking to it's audience's wishful thinking. It's power that the grid operators are legally required to pay to deliver, which means consumer electricity prices are higher. And it's caused by a system where a consumer electricity surcharge pays a fixed, above market price per kWh. In a country where zero emission nuclear power is banned, and tax fueled subsidies support fossil fuels to replace it. So this "free" power is paid for in higher electricity prices for consumers (Germany has some of the most expensive electricity in the world), low profit for producers (the two biggest energy companies have seen income from production drop by more than 33% over 4 years), and higher CO2 emissions (emissions from energy production, and % of coal generated power, have risen under this policy). It would be much better to just tax people to buy power for civic projects like the ones you mention. Unfortunately our expensive "free" electricity doesn't come with perks like that.

Polyisoprene 9y ago

Bitcoin-mining

Robotbeat 9y ago
I doubt it. Looking at bitcoin mining hardware, from what I can tell is that ASIC rigs cost about $2-5 per Watt of energy consumed, let's say $4/Watt. Since one might guess that the economic lifetime of ASIC hardware is approximately, say, 3 years (and that's being pretty gracious), then the capital cost of your bitcoin mining rig is about 15 cents per kWh IF YOU OPERATE IT CONSTANTLY. ...but if you only operate it the 25 percent of the time that electricity is free or negative or something, then the capital cost per Watt is like 60 cents per kWh. Residential electricity is about 11 cents per Watt. Industrial electricity is about 7 cents per Watt, and cheaper in places like the Northwest US with lots of hydro power. So it doesn't really make sense to buy ASIC hardware and idle it most of the time. You're better off paying even residential electricity rates and operating 100% of the time. If you have access to wholesale/industrial electricity rates, then it makes even less sense to idle your mining hardware most the time. It MAY make sense to idle the hardware if prices spike, but if you're not operating your hardware the vast majority of the time, then you're not operating cost-optimally. This point is generally true and applies to other proposed demand-response energy-sinks like hydrogen production: if your capital-cost-per-watt of demand is not very low, then it doesn't make sense to idle production. Capital cost of electrolysis should be the primary focus of any large-scale effort to leverage renewably produced hydrogen, or there's no way to compete IMHO.
- makomk 9y ago
  Well, the main thing constraining the economic lifetime of ASIC mining hardware is that eventually older generations of hardware cost more to in power to operate than they make... but if power costs go negative, that's not necessarily true anymore.
  - Robotbeat 9y ago
    Good point. That's why I said it doesn't make sense to /buy/ (new) ASIC mining hardware if your intent is to idle it. But if it's basically free because it's obsolete, then yeah, it may make sense.

paulryanrogers 9y ago

Folding at home

dragontamer 9y ago

The obvious choice is to charge a battery, where a "battery" can be Lithium Ion, Pumped Hydro, Compressed Air (see CAES), or even rocks on an train that rolls up a hill during negative-power and rolls down a hill during positive power costs (see ARES).

toomuchtodo 9y ago

> What would YOU do if you had free power? Build and run a factory that made more solar panels. Enough solar to power civilization, any expected consumption growth, as well as power to capture atmospheric CO2 and sink it underground.

shagie 9y ago
With the current structure of the electrical system, this actually causes problems in isolated markets. In Hawaii, there are sections of the grid that are oversupplying 250% of what it should take and causing problems with the interconnect getting power from regions that it wasn't built to handle. https://www.utilitydive.com/news/an-embarrassment-of-riches-maui-shows-why-renewables-curtailment-isnt-all/419023/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/an-embarrassment-of-riches-... 100% renewable is great if it can be sustained. But if there is too much power put into the grid, that because an issue. Also it means that other systems need to shut down (its really hard to shut down the distributed solar on rooftops of residential units). Its really hard to curtail an oil plant - they don't shut down or power up quickly. And neither wind nor solar can provide the base power generation necessary in Hawaii for extended night use currently (it needs a sizable power storage system). Load shifting is something that needs to be looked into more (and that is what Tesla is doing with their battery packs). https://electronics.stackexchange.com/q/117437 https://electronics.stackexchange.com/q/117437 is a good read.
SahAssar 9y ago
If the limiting factor in manufacturing solar panels was power then it would be an exponential industry (manufacture 1 solar panel, use it's power to manufacture 2 and so on). I'm pretty sure the limiting factor is the materials and the machinery involved.
- bufferoverflow 9y ago
  If you can automate all the steps, it's all just the energy and the time. Though solar panels require quite a wide supply chain, it will take some time to fully automate.

dukeflukem 9y ago

The problem with some of these suggestions here and in the replies is that you need capital equipment to lay idle when power becomes expensive again. Its probably more efficient to run it all the time rather than only when there is surplus power. You'd need applications where the equipment is dirt cheap, lasts and doesn't go obsolete due to better designs.

tscs37 9y ago

Pump water into a dam with water turbines. If later power is needed you can open up the turbines more. IIRC this has about 80% efficiency and a big dam can soak up a lot of this power without problem.

reacharavindh 9y ago
Yeah that's a relatively long term storage.. like seasonal. For short spikes, it'd be easier to have local dispensation.
- tscs37 9y ago
  "Pumpspeicherkraftwerke" (pump storage power plant) are a thing in germany and largely they are used on minute basis, not seasonal, going from 0 Watts to a Gigawatt in about 20 minutes and probably faster if really necessary. [0] Power can be stored and emited within a few minutes to the extend that they are used to compensate power spikes or drops in the grid already, for exactly the scenario described in the OP. 0: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Pumpspeicherkraftwerk.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Pumpspei...
  - reacharavindh 9y ago
    I stand corrected. It is really cool that we can use water storage that quickly and efficiently.
  - dragontamer 9y ago
    USA has these too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_Sta... As far as I know, its used for "daily" fluctuations. Coal and Nuclear power plants in the region don't want to turn off at night: its more efficient for them to stay hot and keep the turbines going through the night (even when no power is being used). So the Bath County Pumped Storage dam stores energy at night, and provides it in the day, covering a region that contains 13 States. I don't know the response time of the system, but I'd expect it to be similar to the German system of "within minutes" or so.

imhoguy 9y ago

- Pumped storage hydroelectricity grid [1] - Wall socket receiver for power-line communication [2] to schedule energy consuming devices at homes/factories - dishwashers, washing machines, heaters, freezers - this may be not to easy to match demand but at least that could be scheduled in some reasonable time range like "within 4 hours" etc. Also I would be fine to "store" cold with freezers down to -50 deg C. The receiver could display electricity bill saving to incentivise users :) - Subsidized home batteries (like Powerwall but with no need for solar part) which could be controlled by electricity supplier to balance usage - also with some power-line communication. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricit... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-line_communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-line_communication

oh_sigh 9y ago

Smelt aluminum

omarforgotpwd 9y ago

Store it in a set of batteries?

ohthehugemanate 9y ago

But it's not free power. That's just the ny times speaking to it's audience's wishful thinking. It's power that the grid operators are legally required to pay to deliver, which means consumer electricity prices are higher. And it's caused by a system where a consumer electricity surcharge pays a fixed, above market price per kWh. In a country where zero emission nuclear power is banned, and tax fueled subsidies support fossil fuels to replace it. So this "free" power is paid for in higher electricity prices for consumers (Germany has some of the most expensive electricity in the world), low profit for producers (the two biggest energy companies have seen income from production drop by more than 33% over 4 years), and higher CO2 emissions (emissions from energy production, and % of coal generated power, have risen under this policy). It would be much better to just tax people to buy power for civic projects like the ones you mention. Unfortunately our expensive "free" electricity doesn't come with perks like that.