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Ex-FB exec: The dopamine-driven feedback loops are destroying how society works
- sarreph 9y agoThis was posted over a month ago [0] — and has been discussed in numerous ways since then. [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMotykw0SIk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMotykw0SIk EDIT — Thanks to cpv (below), this is the discussion I should've linked to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15900551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15900551
- waytogo 9y agoThis is not entirely true. Your link leads to a 56 minutes video while my linked video is just 4 minutes and providing the relevant discussion point. Moreover, I couldn't find any larger discussion: I searched HN with the link you gave and found only two postings, one with 1 point and another one with 7 points and only 2 comments.
- andy_ppp 9y agoI hadn’t seen this yet, I think we can all agree using machine learning to brainwash people is bad and probably more effective that you might think given Cambridge Analytica’s and Russia’s recent successes.
- peg_leg 9y agoSeems like an old man is having trouble with change. I'm sure that similar things have been said about cars, telephones, televisions, and computers in general.
- nugi 9y agoAnd they were not wholly incorrect when said then. The social change made by each of your examples is huge.
- stryk 9y agoAnd they weren't necessarily wrong IMHO, with the exception of maybe the original landline telephone (I would give this an asterisk though, and confine it to the first ~20 years of landline telephony; ie, farmers running homebrew line using barbed wire fencing in the depression-era dust bowl to keep current on grain prices, etc.). Cars are great for transportation and have enabled humankind to travel further and more often then ever before, but they are also 2000+ lb. death traps and combined with alcohol they are an absolute threat to everyone's safety. Television is pretty much ALL evil these days (everyone's trying to sell you SOMETHING or worse yet manipulate your natural thought process -- but it's all about money of course), so that's out. Computers are probably a double-edged sword. Incredibly powerful and have given humanity new capabilities, but we've probably become too reliant on them. They are too ingrained into daily society now. On a somewhat narrower scope: social media is absolutely 100% all evil, designed intentionally with the explicit intention of manipulating their own users.
- eropple 9y agoI wouldn't by any stretch call social media "all evil". It has its problems, a lot of them. But, for me personally, it's just an extension of the rest of the internet, where I encounter people and ideas that I wouldn't otherwise stumble into. I grew up in a fairly poor, extremely white setting and social media (and its precursors, IRC and the like) was, no joke, pretty much the first exposure I had to people who were not white Americans. Meeting those people, having to get along with them, was a pretty big formative thing that wouldn't have happened without these tools. Or, in the reverse, watching the GamerGate thing happen clued me in early that the trolls and harassers that now do the alt-right thing had a certain kind of power that needed to (and, it turns out, wasn't) defended against, that they were not just "internet whiners" but were creating their own extremist political factions whether they knew they were (I think they did) or not. And, today, through idly browsing Twitter when I have a little downtime, I often see drift through my timeline the kinds of thought-provoking links and threads that make me aware of valuable and viewpoint-broadening ideas I wouldn't see otherwise. I wouldn't say a word in defense of television, though. Being at my parents' for Christmas has made me uncomfortably aware of just how loud and penetrating those commercials-every-six-minutes are. And it's very, very one-way.
- tanilama 9y agoHe has no proof of that
- paulcole 9y agoTalk is cheap after you got rich off of it.
- jabgrabdthrow 9y agoCan you explain your point more clearly? Are you saying that he’s not credible because he got rich off of it?
- abraae 9y agoPerhaps that he could have done more, earlier, but choose the money instead.
- cortesoft 9y agoSo we should ignore what he is saying now? I am just unsure what we are supposed to do with that information.
- mitchty 9y agoPerhaps, but its easy to be outraged at people in both hindsight and outside of the situation they're in. We should be encouraging this kind of discussion, not trying to shame or judge past actions incessantly.
- rublev 9y agoHe's just another rich asshole working a new angle now that he made his billion. At no point in time during his time at FB did he have a conscience? He could have done more earlier. Just seems like he's working a new angle now to grow his billion into two.
- cortesoft 9y agoSo we should ignore what he says about Facebook?
- 9y ago
- marricks 9y agoHe provides good examples and reasoning for his fears, but still it'd be great to have a larger book/discourse on this. One of Facebook's defenses of this is that they hire psychologists etc, but it's to better train this system. More people coming out against this sort of thing after they've had first hand experience is good!
- callesgg 9y agoI have been saying that for a while now. Social media is great for the individual but horrible for society.
- gaius 9y agoGreat for the individual in the very short term but any longer than that, the society in which the individual exists is degraded enough to impact them too.
- touristtam 9y agoIt's just a tool, thought. It doesn't preclude the capacity for any individual to have a critical thinking about news and events.
- baq 9y agoBrexit and Trump are two examples of a nation state actor using the... tool... for their purposes and succeeding. It's like vaccination: if you don't use it, you're still feeling the effects of others using it even if you're living far away and never knew them.
- oblio 9y agoWe do regulate many tools because not all members of society can be trusted to operate them properly (the young, elderly, those temporarily vulnerable due to mental issues, etc.).
- callesgg 9y agoIt does not preclude it but it certainly does not make it easier. I think you suffer from the delusion that the human mind is rational and logical. It can be, under certain limited conditions. But under most circumstances it is a complete mess.
- touristtam 9y ago> I think you suffer from the delusion that the human mind is rational and logical. I don't suffer from it, not more or less than the countless text of law that base their logic on citizens from being trustful agent in the society, but thank you for your concern.
- lerie82 9y agoOh get over yourself, this video is disgustingly egotistical. "ripping apart the social fabric", I absolutely doubt that. This is getting way out of hand. Social media isn't ripping any core values apart, and nothing he has said in this video proves it.
- superbrama 9y agoJust curious if you’ve any anecdotes about behavior of nouveau generation. While not a parent myself I’ve heard many times from parent and youth peers that the new generations are entirely lacking IRL social skills, instead deferring their social lives entirely to their digital presence. As a result, basic conversational skills development is limited.
- lerie82 9y agoI work with many people who are still in high school or right out of high school and none of them seem to be lacking social skills.
- meddlepal 9y agoMaybe it's just another case of the new generation just isn't like the old generation. Jazz music, rock music, drugs, cars, fast women, violent video games, porn... You name it and every generation has something the previous generation thinks is destroying society. Social media is the new rock n roll.
- davidcbc 9y agoI'm shocked that older generations are complaining about younger generations! Shocked!
- dang 9y ago> Oh get over yourself, this video is disgustingly egotistical Please don't post rage rants to HN. If you have a substantive point to make, make it thoughtfully; if you don't, please don't comment until you do. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- hkmurakami 9y agoFor those winding who the exec is, it's Chamath, who iirc was FB's first heat of growth.
- rwnspace 9y agoTristram Harris [1][2] is worth listening to on these points, I'm sure many on HN are already aware. Without rambling too much, I'm one of those over-sensitive, slightly aspie types that reads SSC and gets carried away with over-analysing the zeitgeist. Uncharitably, you might say 'smart but weak-minded'. The longer I spend in front of social media, the more and more in tatters I feel. I spent a week entirely disconnected from the 'net a month ago and I can't stress how restorative it was for me. Though, alarmingly, I was back in full swing soon after I returned. For those of you who have problems with self-control and sustaining your attention, and think it has something to do with your browsing habits, I highly recommend you - I urge you - to disconnect in a significant way. Of course it's up to you what that means. In September I gave up smoking, and the physical and psychological changes I underwent were pretty surprising. I felt more present and in-the-moment (and other barely-describable-but-definitely-nice feelings) than I had done in years. Despite smoking 25 a day, I have found quitting Reddit much, much harder; despite being convinced it's as bad for my mental health as smoking was for my physical. I think there's something to be said about identifying addiction patterns in your life and exorcising them. The small amounts of progress I've made recently have certainly felt as though they've increased my net level of agency and free will. I wish that flowery metaphors about demons were more readily acceptable, because software is a lot like wizardy - and it really does feel like dark sorcery has been cast to possess the West. [1] http://www.tristanharris.com/essays/ http://www.tristanharris.com/essays/ [2] https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/what-is-technology-doing-to-us https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/what-is-technology-do...
- Mouse47 9y agoCan you elaborate on how you felt after you took your week off? In particular I'm interested in differences in sleep requirements & quality, difficulty handling eye contact (the 'slightly aspie' stuff), and general cognition. "In tatters": can I get a description of that also? Only reason I ask is because I've had a similar experience...twice. Once when moving into an apartment (no power, close proximity to roommates) and again when on a trip (golfing all day, close proximity again). My "symptoms" include pretty serious social anxiety and an inability to think during conversations, inability to focus on non-interesting work, and just a general feeling of being dumber.
- misterHN 9y agoThe problem isn't dopamine, it is adrenaline. The problem is that jews are a threat, people know it, and they want the jews put down. People do not want jews in their society, they do not want Facebook in their society. They want the Facebook protectors put down and they want the jews put down. I'm sick of complaining about the jews. I want them put down.
- eyeareque 9y agoHe stated what I have felt for years, in words much better than I could. If you struggle to disconnect from social media because you feel like you’ll miss out on friends, remember this: If social media is the only thing connecting you to a friend, they aren’t that good of a friend anyway. Your true friends will not disappear if you delete Facebook.
- hateduser2 9y agoYour potential true friends will. Also, it’s not just about your true friends anyways, is it? There’s more to why we like social media than just that (although granted you qualified your statement). Anyways I don’t want to make it harder for you to quit but I don’t think misleading yourself (intentionally or not) and others is the right way to do it.
- watwut 9y agoEven people without true friends need acquitances and social contact. The consequence for many is not knowing about social activities at all and thus not being able to participate at all because they tend to get organized over facebook. Moreover, there is such a thing as being special snowflake that refuses to use same practical tool as everyone and demand that others do out of way especially for him. Lastly, not everyone has super rich social life that would make it easy to make and keep friends. Many people work a lot of hours in companies that change every 2 year, limiting opportunities for friends time. Others have children they already feel they spend too little time with. The loose connection when you react to each others posts is much better then comelet cut off.
- ryandrake 9y agoThat’s the usual objection whenever I advocate getting off of Facebook: “But I will lose contact with all my friends!” So, how did you contact them before Facebook? The fear is unjustified. Your actual friends will keep in contact, just like they did before Facebook. I left FB 5+ years ago and by some great miracle I still have a robust social life, and as a bonus am not wasting hours a day scrolling through useless information about the lives of remote acquaintances.
- notacoward 9y ago
- thinkcomp 9y agohttps://twitter.com/AaronGreenspan/status/945716138939269120 https://twitter.com/AaronGreenspan/status/945716138939269120
- snvzz 9y agoThis reminded me of Reciprocality/The Programmers' Stone, which I hadn't heardf about in a while. https://www.datapacrat.com/Opinion/Reciprocality/ https://www.datapacrat.com/Opinion/Reciprocality/
- ihaveahadron 9y agoWe've witnessed technology breakthrough in relative lightning quick speed. It's going out of the lab. Hey excited.
- md224 9y agoJust want to make a couple points: - I think everyone understands this, but it bears repeating: dopamine isn't the problem here, as it will be involved in any rewarding behavior. The real claim being made is that we have created technologies that give us too much and/or the wrong kind of pleasure. - We should consider that "junk food" pleasure (the internet, TV, drugs, actual junk food, etc.) can be useful as a coping mechanism for individuals facing trauma, stress, depression, or other psychological issues. We should consider the possibility that healthier coping mechanisms might be insufficient or unavailable in certain situations. It might actually be a good thing that we've come up with a portable technology (the smartphone) that can be used on the go for short bursts of dopamine. In terms of addictions, you could do worse. All that being said, I agree that people can develop unhealthy relationships with technology, and we should be working (as always) in the direction of harm reduction.
- ben_jones 9y agoThe problem is when necessary human coping mechanisms combine with capitalism. That's when you get children's advertising for junkfood. Facebook pushing controversial shock stories to stir up users. And the War on Drugs leading to environments like the Opioid crisis. I wonder if this is even avoidable - exercise for example is a huge industry and whether you're paying for a gym membership, exercise classes, or a new bike, you're paying...
- dgudkov 9y agoEvery new massively successful technology requires a new kind of social education. When cars became popular people had to be educated to respect pedestrian signals and not jaywalk. With the mass adoption of credit cards and ATMs people had to be educated to keep their PINs secret and not write them right on credit cards. Social networks require new social education that should start with realizing their potentials downsides which I believe is still the most difficult part.
- monksy 9y agoI think this was evident on porn's impact on relationships, and you're just seeing it hit mainstream via facebook (wider audience).
- Noos 9y agoAmazing how Facebook is the new Dungeons and Dragons, corrupting people's minds through (now scientific) invisible demons.
- pwaai 9y agoThis is what a lot of us have figured out and stopped using facebook. I briefly checked in last year and was overwhelmed by the number of engagements, marriages, newborns, relationships. The eerie thing is everybody's life looked very similar from one another, happy, smiling instagramed filters where they momentarily pose for selfies. Then it hit me. I know what makes me disappointed about society today. It's that we consider the image of success more important than reality. For example, the mainstream collectively considers steve jobs as the ideal entrepreneur, when when we knew he made billions off the backs of children and women in horrible working conditions in an authoritarian government. How about Bill Cosby, Mel Gibson, Lance Armstrong, Trump, Weinstein? How great did you think those people were before revealing themselves to be a complete hoax? Especially when society has been reduced to spamming a running commentary of bullshit masquerading as insight, our social media faking as intimacy. Or is it that we voted for this? Not with our rigged elections, but with our things, our property, our money. I'm not saying anything new. We all know why we do this, not because Hunger Games books make us happy but because we wanna be sedated. Because it's painful not to pretend, because we're cowards.
- whamlastxmas 9y agoTrump is a hoax? People overwhelmingly enjoy working for him and he's made tremendous progress on his campaign promises.
- anigbrowl 9y agoWait, you mean people 'keep up with the Joneses' online as well as in real life? Social media ia new venue for an old behavior. People who are shallow online are shallow in real life, it's just more 3d. Likewise, people who are thoughtful and interesting online tend to be similarly so in person. I also have a jaundiced view of society, but it's naive to think it was great and than got completely wrecked by social media (or TV, or jazz music, or dancing, or...). Going down that path will just lead to being a bitter reactionary. Instead, examine your prior premise of what you thought society was or should be, and consider whether that was a historical actuality or a frustrated desire. A good deal depends on whether you conceive of people to 'naturally' be good or bad and whether/how they are shaped by society or vice versa, so your consideration should include some philosophical reading since this is a fundamental question philosophers struggle with. Read some history too. If you're American, I suggest 'American Nations' by Colin Woodard, which offers a sweeping overview of the competing forces that have shaped US society and makes for an interesting contrast to the increasingly dysfunctional idealogical monomyth.