6 ms·

I'm curious how much money is needed. Why is it that Japan, Hong Kong and most developed European cities have much better rail transportation ? I don't think mo

I'm curious how much money is needed. Why is it that Japan, Hong Kong and most developed European cities have much better rail transportation ? I don't think money is the only issue. NYC is probably one of the richest cities in the world and yet you say they don't have the money to fix this ? I know construction in US is expensive but it can't be that bad.

sandworm101 9y ago
NYC is rich but has very different priorities than other cities. It even operates its own forgien intel service. It is a city dedicated to servicing luxury real estate and the people who own it, neither of which care one iota about subways.
- bobthechef 9y ago
  Sounds to me like it needs to shift around some of those priorities.
- betterunix2 9y ago
  You are wrong. Luxury real estate in NYC is dependent on the transit system, and gentrification tends to follow subway lines. The value of a NYC apartment is related to the proximity to a subway stop. This is why, for example, the new 2nd Ave. subway line ends where it ends -- the next planned stop is in a neighborhood that has not been gentrified, while the existing stops serve several luxury developments.
  - majormajor 9y ago
    I think you and the person you're replying to are using vastly different definitions of luxury real estate. Add a few zeros. :)
    - sandworm101 9y ago
      Yes. Most of NYC real estate only exists to support the real luxury units, the top 1-5% with massive profit margins. A great many units are actually built at a loss to support the construction of the penthouses. Such not-luxury units only exist as a result of zoning. Google "poor door" to see the extreme physical manifestation.
      - fjsolwmv 9y ago
        That's sound like saying most airline fare exists only to support first class.
        sandworm101 9y ago
        That can be a thing. Calculate how much square footage an economy seat takes compared to a 1st class seat. It's easy math to work out who is paying for the other. Airlines try to maximize profits when doing cabin layout but when they start changing rates, yes a discount to fill one cabin is paid for with profits from the other.
bobthechef 9y ago
Precisely. Also, isn't there an interesting relationship b/w the state and the city wrt funding where the state is responsible for the subway and not the city?
- betterunix2 9y ago
  Sort of; actually, MTA funding is a total mess of state subsidies, taxes on counties in the MTA region (remember, the MTA is more than the subway -- LIRR and MNR are also under its umbrella), city subsidies, city taxes, real estate income, and fare revenue (and maybe a few more things beyond that). The MTA also issued bonds to cover budget gaps, so now in addition to capital and operating costs it has debt service to deal with. The MTA's internal organization is also a total mess. Metro-North and LIRR use nearly identical equipment (identical except for power systems) but are considered separate agencies within the MTA. The subway system is also considered separate, and in fact there is yet another internal division in the subway: IRT, BMT, and IND (internally referred to as 'A', 'B1', and 'B2' divisions). So there is needless duplication in the management structure. Beyond that, there are two more MTA railroads that are easy to forget about: the Staten Island railroad, and the South Brooklyn Railway (which may be operated as part of the subway's "C" division maintenance group, I am a bit fuzzy on the details there). Incredibly, the SIR uses the same equipment as the BMT and IND, so it is a bit difficult to understand why it is managed separately.
bryanlarsen 9y ago
Hong Kong has a really interesting answer to that question: they turn a >$1B profit each year. But they can be better described as a real estate company that runs a subway as a side business to make their real estate more valuable.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Japan is similar with both it’s local and inter-City subways/trains.
- owenversteeg 9y ago
  Yep, I've always been fascinated with that approach and I think it's one of the best solutions. The station itself enriches the land it's on. Even better, it makes the whole public transit system more efficient. If I have to go to another city to shop at a specific store, then it's far more convenient if that store is located there in the station instead of having to take a bus from the station and back.
Nelkins 9y ago
I'd be very skeptical of the "required" money quoted by anyone who is affiliated with the MTA or state government in general. There's a lot of evidence that indicates the MTA is used as a personal piggy bank. Take, for example, this gem: "MTA wrote $4.9M check to three upstate ski centers in bizarre move requested by Cuomo officials" [1]. Or this one[2] (also part of this NYT series): "Subway workers now make an average of $170,000 annually in salary, overtime and benefits, according to a Times analysis of data compiled by the federal Department of Transportation. That is far more than in any other American transit system; the average in cities like Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles and Washington is about $100,000 in total compensation annually. The pay for managers is even more extraordinary. The nearly 2,500 people who work in New York subway administration make, on average, $280,000 in salary, overtime and benefits. The average elsewhere is $115,000." Why are we paying these employees such an insane amount of money relative to our peers? Political failure[3]. Due to the Triborough Amendment clause of the Taylor Law, anytime negotiations with the union fall through, the terms of the previous contract continue. Thus, the Transit Workers Union (TWU) have no incentive to negotiate in good faith. They can't strike, but they still get a pretty sweet deal. The solution to this starts at the top. We need to vote out our current corrupt (or at the very least, easily cowed) government and put in place people who will make this a priority and not be completely beholden to special interests. [1] http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/mta-wrote-4-9m-check-upstate-ski-centers-article-1.3313757 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/mta-wrote-4-9m-chec... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/nyregion/new-york-subway-system-failure-delays.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/nyregion/new-york-subway-... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Law#Criticism_and_reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Law#Criticism_and_refor...
- betterunix2 9y ago
  I remain confused about the pay figure the NYTimes gave for subway workers; I have a close relative who works in the subway and I know a number of subway workers, and none of them make anything close to that kind of salary, even counting overtime. So unless that counts something other than the hourly employees, or counts pension contributions as salary (in which case it is just an argument against pensions), I have a hard time believing it. I also have no idea what better alternative there is when a contract negotiation fails. Is the system supposed to stop altogether until a new contract is agreed upon? Are the workers expected to go without pay? The fact is that the union's demands have not been unreasonable -- they ask to keep benefits, to have pay increases that basically track the cost of living in NYC, and occasional to expand low-cost benefits (e.g. allowing all employees to ride LIRR and MNR for free, rather than just employees who live outside NYC).
bogomipz 9y ago
>" Why is it that Japan, Hong Kong and most developed European cities have much better rail transportation? Japan is an interesting comparison because the lines are private and independently owned and so there's competition[1]. Once upon a time the NYC train line were private and independently owned they were the BMT, IRT and the IND[2]. You still vestiges of this in some stations. At any rate it was thought that that having privately owned train lines might allow them to hold the city hostage and so they were bought by the city. Obviously there's a great irony in that now. [1] https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2011/10/why-tokyos-privately-owned-rail-systems-work-so-well/389/ https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2011/10/why-tokyos-pr... [2] http://www.nytimes.com/1990/06/30/nyregion/about-new-york-alphabet-soup-telling-an-irt-from-a-bmt.html http://www.nytimes.com/1990/06/30/nyregion/about-new-york-al...

sandworm101 9y ago

NYC is rich but has very different priorities than other cities. It even operates its own forgien intel service. It is a city dedicated to servicing luxury real estate and the people who own it, neither of which care one iota about subways.

bobthechef 9y ago
Sounds to me like it needs to shift around some of those priorities.
betterunix2 9y ago
You are wrong. Luxury real estate in NYC is dependent on the transit system, and gentrification tends to follow subway lines. The value of a NYC apartment is related to the proximity to a subway stop. This is why, for example, the new 2nd Ave. subway line ends where it ends -- the next planned stop is in a neighborhood that has not been gentrified, while the existing stops serve several luxury developments.
- majormajor 9y ago
  I think you and the person you're replying to are using vastly different definitions of luxury real estate. Add a few zeros. :)
  - sandworm101 9y ago
    Yes. Most of NYC real estate only exists to support the real luxury units, the top 1-5% with massive profit margins. A great many units are actually built at a loss to support the construction of the penthouses. Such not-luxury units only exist as a result of zoning. Google "poor door" to see the extreme physical manifestation.
    - fjsolwmv 9y ago
      That's sound like saying most airline fare exists only to support first class.
      - sandworm101 9y ago
        That can be a thing. Calculate how much square footage an economy seat takes compared to a 1st class seat. It's easy math to work out who is paying for the other. Airlines try to maximize profits when doing cabin layout but when they start changing rates, yes a discount to fill one cabin is paid for with profits from the other.

bobthechef 9y ago

Precisely. Also, isn't there an interesting relationship b/w the state and the city wrt funding where the state is responsible for the subway and not the city?

betterunix2 9y ago
Sort of; actually, MTA funding is a total mess of state subsidies, taxes on counties in the MTA region (remember, the MTA is more than the subway -- LIRR and MNR are also under its umbrella), city subsidies, city taxes, real estate income, and fare revenue (and maybe a few more things beyond that). The MTA also issued bonds to cover budget gaps, so now in addition to capital and operating costs it has debt service to deal with. The MTA's internal organization is also a total mess. Metro-North and LIRR use nearly identical equipment (identical except for power systems) but are considered separate agencies within the MTA. The subway system is also considered separate, and in fact there is yet another internal division in the subway: IRT, BMT, and IND (internally referred to as 'A', 'B1', and 'B2' divisions). So there is needless duplication in the management structure. Beyond that, there are two more MTA railroads that are easy to forget about: the Staten Island railroad, and the South Brooklyn Railway (which may be operated as part of the subway's "C" division maintenance group, I am a bit fuzzy on the details there). Incredibly, the SIR uses the same equipment as the BMT and IND, so it is a bit difficult to understand why it is managed separately.

bryanlarsen 9y ago

Hong Kong has a really interesting answer to that question: they turn a >$1B profit each year. But they can be better described as a real estate company that runs a subway as a side business to make their real estate more valuable.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Japan is similar with both it’s local and inter-City subways/trains.
owenversteeg 9y ago
Yep, I've always been fascinated with that approach and I think it's one of the best solutions. The station itself enriches the land it's on. Even better, it makes the whole public transit system more efficient. If I have to go to another city to shop at a specific store, then it's far more convenient if that store is located there in the station instead of having to take a bus from the station and back.

Nelkins 9y ago

I'd be very skeptical of the "required" money quoted by anyone who is affiliated with the MTA or state government in general. There's a lot of evidence that indicates the MTA is used as a personal piggy bank. Take, for example, this gem: "MTA wrote $4.9M check to three upstate ski centers in bizarre move requested by Cuomo officials" [1]. Or this one[2] (also part of this NYT series): "Subway workers now make an average of $170,000 annually in salary, overtime and benefits, according to a Times analysis of data compiled by the federal Department of Transportation. That is far more than in any other American transit system; the average in cities like Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles and Washington is about $100,000 in total compensation annually. The pay for managers is even more extraordinary. The nearly 2,500 people who work in New York subway administration make, on average, $280,000 in salary, overtime and benefits. The average elsewhere is $115,000." Why are we paying these employees such an insane amount of money relative to our peers? Political failure[3]. Due to the Triborough Amendment clause of the Taylor Law, anytime negotiations with the union fall through, the terms of the previous contract continue. Thus, the Transit Workers Union (TWU) have no incentive to negotiate in good faith. They can't strike, but they still get a pretty sweet deal. The solution to this starts at the top. We need to vote out our current corrupt (or at the very least, easily cowed) government and put in place people who will make this a priority and not be completely beholden to special interests. [1] http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/mta-wrote-4-9m-check-upstate-ski-centers-article-1.3313757 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/mta-wrote-4-9m-chec... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/nyregion/new-york-subway-system-failure-delays.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/nyregion/new-york-subway-... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Law#Criticism_and_reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Law#Criticism_and_refor...

betterunix2 9y ago
I remain confused about the pay figure the NYTimes gave for subway workers; I have a close relative who works in the subway and I know a number of subway workers, and none of them make anything close to that kind of salary, even counting overtime. So unless that counts something other than the hourly employees, or counts pension contributions as salary (in which case it is just an argument against pensions), I have a hard time believing it. I also have no idea what better alternative there is when a contract negotiation fails. Is the system supposed to stop altogether until a new contract is agreed upon? Are the workers expected to go without pay? The fact is that the union's demands have not been unreasonable -- they ask to keep benefits, to have pay increases that basically track the cost of living in NYC, and occasional to expand low-cost benefits (e.g. allowing all employees to ride LIRR and MNR for free, rather than just employees who live outside NYC).

bogomipz 9y ago

>" Why is it that Japan, Hong Kong and most developed European cities have much better rail transportation? Japan is an interesting comparison because the lines are private and independently owned and so there's competition[1]. Once upon a time the NYC train line were private and independently owned they were the BMT, IRT and the IND[2]. You still vestiges of this in some stations. At any rate it was thought that that having privately owned train lines might allow them to hold the city hostage and so they were bought by the city. Obviously there's a great irony in that now. [1] https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2011/10/why-tokyos-privately-owned-rail-systems-work-so-well/389/ https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2011/10/why-tokyos-pr... [2] http://www.nytimes.com/1990/06/30/nyregion/about-new-york-alphabet-soup-telling-an-irt-from-a-bmt.html http://www.nytimes.com/1990/06/30/nyregion/about-new-york-al...