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This is, in fact, correct behavior: http://www.sfbike.org/news/bike-lanes-and-right-turns/ http://www.sfbike.org/news/bike-lanes-and-right-turns/ If turning tr
by bdonlan 9y ago
This is, in fact, correct behavior: http://www.sfbike.org/news/bike-lanes-and-right-turns/ http://www.sfbike.org/news/bike-lanes-and-right-turns/
If turning traffic doesn't enter the bike lane, then it is turning right across the bike lane, which can lead to accidents where a bike collides with a turning vehicle. As such the correct behavior is to signal and enter the bike lane before turning. Of course, many human drivers fail to do this, so it's not surprising that people might be taken aback when they see self driving cars doing it...
- derekp7 9y agoSince it appears that enough people are confused about this, maybe the markings on the road should clarify the correct behavior (otherwise the danger is raised for everyone). Something like a turn lane painted at the intersection, with the bike lane having a yield sign just before the turn lane.
- therein 9y agoThey do have those in San Francisco. Bike lane turns into dashed lines at the intersection and the right lane of traffic expands into the bike lane as the intersection gets closer.
- jstarfish 9y agoThis is also the case in southern California. This is not the case on the East coast. The bike lane line is solid all the way to the intersection.
- SAI_Peregrinus 9y agoIt is the case in Hartford, CT.
- BoorishBears 9y agoI lived in Downtown Hartford until last month, I don't recall many, if any bikes on roads. Then again, I do recall traffic being generally unsafe, I definitely would avoid riding a bike there.
- SAI_Peregrinus 9y agoI'm near the West Hartford border, around the northeast greenway bike path. It's got the markings for cars to merge into the bike lane on right turns.
- BoorishBears 9y agoI do remember those bike paths, I also forgot about the part of the greenway that ran through Downtown according to signs, and apparently the Traveler's building is at the base of part of it (I lived next to that)?
- godelski 9y agoI also commonly see bike lanes go dashed and a right turn lane appear to the right of them.
- markcerqueira 9y agoI always thought this was "basic driving" knowledge that some people just don't get. Is the solution really to add more markings and signs to the street? Do you need "Left lane is for passing" along hundreds of miles of a highway in California?
- user5994461 9y agoSince you appear to be californian, do the bicycle lanes over there have solid lines or dotted lines?
- Stratoscope 9y agoSolid lines until you get near an intersection, where they usually change to dotted lines to give a hint that you are required to merge into the bike lane before turning.
- rconti 9y agothis, all over the bay area and from what i remember of socal.
- rconti 9y agoapparently they do!
- astrange 9y agoBtw, California doesn't use the left lane for passing; you just have to yield to anyone going faster than you.
- godelski 9y agoMost states have keep right laws[1]. Some are definitely stronger than others, but these laws aren't enforced as frequently, though I wish they were. [1] http://www.mit.edu/%7Ejfc/right.html http://www.mit.edu/%7Ejfc/right.html tldr: If someone behind you is going faster and you are in the left lane, move right.
- seanmcdirmid 9y agoThey are often painted with a dashed line before the intersection.
- jxramos 9y agoyep, https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/hdbk/shr_slow_veh#bike https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/hdbk/shr_slow_... ...Merge toward the curb or into the bike lane only when it is safe. Merge safely behind a bicyclist when preparing to make a turn. Only enter a bike lane no more than 200 feet before starting a turn. ...
- ggggtez 9y agoThe article is not about San Francisco, it's about Pittsburgh
- TheCoelacanth 9y agoThis law apparently varies between states. This is in PA rather than CA. Though apparently people are complaining about it in CA as well, where it definitely is the correct behavior.
- cowsandmilk 9y agoActually, the complaint in California is in the guardian article linked and has Uber doing the turn illegaly in CA. That said, the guardian article is a year old, while the Pittsburgh complaint is from today and describes legal behavior in CA. Basically, Uber probably changed their software's behavior to follow California law following the complaints last year and that is now resulting in complaints in Pittsburgh. I have no clue what PA law is on this, but I can imagine the law may differ depending on jurisdictions and this would be something where engineers will have to have a variety of behaviors depending on the applicable law.
- clort 9y agoI have suggested many times that the things computers are good at include looking up inconsistent rules in a database, so this doesn't seem as if it should be an either-or issue for the car, it should know all the rules and be able to follow them as appropriate, where a human might be forgetful.
- dawnerd 9y agoAnd probably why Uber gets it wrong. Bunch of engineers thinking their laws are the laws everywhere. It's good they're figuring this out now before self driving cards become really common as road laws vary so much even between cities and time of day...
- philipwhiuk 9y agoThis would definitely not be legal in the UK. Is it a US nationwide rule?
- TheCoelacanth 9y agoIt is a pretty common state level rule, although one that most drivers don't know about.
- nostrademons 9y agoIt's a state law. Threw me for a loop when I moved from Boston (where this behavior is illegal) to California (where not doing this is illegal), but it's in the CA driving handbook and on the driving test to get your CA license.
- ricardobeat 9y agoOnly in California, apparently. I was curious and checked the Dutch regulations - in NL it's an infraction to 'wait' on a cycle lane for any reason. Cars turning across the path just give way to all traffic coming from behind until it's safe to move. It is very stressful for the driver, but blocking the cycle path is a recipe for chaos.
- tehlike 9y ago"blocking the cycle path is a recipe for chaos" I think california has the right rule here, the driver cannot constantly monitor what's coming from behind when making a turn, especially when most cyclists are almost invisible from side mirrors. Blocking the path for a safety-critical maneuver would certainly help.
- Jaxan 9y agoThis is how we do it in NL. We constantly monitor what's behind and to the side of us.
- jypepin 9y agoand for having lived in Amsterdam for 2 years now, I guarantee that the way bikes (and traffic in general) are handled in the Netherlands is far from the safest way! :)
- blunte 9y agoBut living here myself, I can attest that Dutch drivers are better than US drivers. Perhaps because of better drivers and possibly better cyclists, the chaos that is rush hour cycling results in far fewer accidents than I would expect.
- jypepin 9y agoagreed that in general Europe has better drivers (license is just harder to get) but that doesn't change that it's still very unsafe and not secure :)
- panda888888 9y agoThis isn't legal in most states. Outside of California, you're usually supposed to turn directly from the car lane.
- user5994461 9y agoAlso illegal in Europe.
- mc32 9y agoI thought one _always_ had to merge right before turning right --else ticket for turning from wrong lane (even if it's the only lane in that direction). I guess the fear is contributing to a scenario which sets-up a T-bone. I believe this was the case before people even thought about considering bikes. I'm surprised it's not the same in other states. The again, we don't have the Boston left turn rule.
- mr_toad 9y agoShower thought: in theory, if driverless cars completely replaced humans on the roads, then all the regional and international variations in road rules could be unified with a software update.
- tehlike 9y agoIf driverless cars completely replaced humans, then you would not need many of the rules, road signs, traffic lights, and so on. Car-to-car communication combined with mesh-sensor network would probably take care of most of these.
- loeg 9y agoCyclists and non-driverless car-drivers still need to know what to expect of other vehicles.
- chrisper 9y agoWhen I lived in the Bay Area it always annoyed me how people turned from the middle of the street.
- bbarn 9y agoIt's also pretty much common sense. In a car, or on a bike, sometimes something ahead of you makes you slow down. The problem comes in when the bicycles are ignored, and "right hooked" by cars turning through the bike lane when the cyclist needs to go straight. In Chicago at least, that move is illegal (passing a bicycle then turning right is as well, but let's see that ever get enforced)
- malandrew 9y agoMy first cycling accident involving a collision with a car was in Berkeley and involved a car that turn right across the bike lane in front of me and I smacked right into their rear quarter panel.