11 ms·

Self-Driving Ubers Driving in Bike Lanes

108 points by driverlessnick 9y ago

andrei_says_ 9y ago
I could use a clarification about expected driver behavior when turning right in the presence of a bike lane. And I need to acknowledge my internal reaction of judging this as one more “Uber-villain” style rule. Uner-corrupted, Uber-unscrupulous, uber-villainous to be more precise. Their brand image is firmly established for me.
- jessaustin 9y ago
  Yes that brand name is quite obnoxious. Airbnb might ignore just as many laws, but at least they have a goofy unpretentious name. The only thing I can think of like "Uber" except worse might be "Darth".
  - andrei_says_ 9y ago
    I was referring about the brand established by the criminal behavior of Uber I read about on regular basis. What a company says about themselves is PR. How the company is perceived is Brand.
killbot5000 9y ago
Aren't you supposed to do that? It gives the bikers heads up to slow or navigate to the left of the vehicle turning right. Otherwise the chance for collision is higher when the vehicle suddenly cuts off the bikers during its turn. Edit: image from sf bicycle coalition. http://www.sfbike.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Right-Turn.jpg http://www.sfbike.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Right-Turn....
bdonlan 9y ago
This is, in fact, correct behavior: http://www.sfbike.org/news/bike-lanes-and-right-turns/ http://www.sfbike.org/news/bike-lanes-and-right-turns/ If turning traffic doesn't enter the bike lane, then it is turning right across the bike lane, which can lead to accidents where a bike collides with a turning vehicle. As such the correct behavior is to signal and enter the bike lane before turning. Of course, many human drivers fail to do this, so it's not surprising that people might be taken aback when they see self driving cars doing it...
- derekp7 9y ago
  Since it appears that enough people are confused about this, maybe the markings on the road should clarify the correct behavior (otherwise the danger is raised for everyone). Something like a turn lane painted at the intersection, with the bike lane having a yield sign just before the turn lane.
  - therein 9y ago
    They do have those in San Francisco. Bike lane turns into dashed lines at the intersection and the right lane of traffic expands into the bike lane as the intersection gets closer.
    - jstarfish 9y ago
      This is also the case in southern California. This is not the case on the East coast. The bike lane line is solid all the way to the intersection.
      - SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
        It is the case in Hartford, CT.
        BoorishBears 9y ago
        I lived in Downtown Hartford until last month, I don't recall many, if any bikes on roads. Then again, I do recall traffic being generally unsafe, I definitely would avoid riding a bike there.
        SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
        I'm near the West Hartford border, around the northeast greenway bike path. It's got the markings for cars to merge into the bike lane on right turns.
stevemk14ebr 9y ago
Some of these comments arguing that it's 'correct' behavior begs the question, do we want 'correct' or 'predictably expect-able' behavior. What i mean by that is most people would likely not expect a car to turn into that lane, even though it is 'correct'. Perhaps instead of following the rules so rigidly it should SOMETIMES break the rules to do the thing more like a human would, making it an all together safer system as humans would better be able to predict it's actions and adjust accordingly. This of course imposes lots of philosophical problems like which rules can be broken, and which not.
- pessimizer 9y ago
  I'd think in this case that ideally what we would want was for the Uber's behavior to become normalized among non-robot drivers, and become 'predictably expect-able.' What the Uber is doing is actually correct rather than 'correct.'
- TheCoelacanth 9y ago
  What really should happen is for humans to be taught about the correct behavior. This is a rule that should be enforced rigidly. Turning across bike lanes instead of from them endangers the lives of cyclists. Just because most drivers don't care whether cyclists live or die doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do.
  - user5994461 9y ago
    Just because it's the expected behavior in california doesn't make it correct or right in the rest of the world. The other comments pointed out that california have dashed lines for bicycle lanes around intersections. That may be the signal.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
TheCoelacanth 9y ago
Apparently about a year ago they were getting complaints about exactly the opposite behavior: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/12/19/uber_selfdriving_car_and_bikes/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/12/19/uber_selfdriving_ca... They can't seem to win with this one.
- greglindahl 9y ago
  Given that different states have different laws, and in both cases the Uber car was violating the local state law, ... no, they aren't winning.
quirkot 9y ago
Not being prepared for different rules in different states seems like a big miss. cracks fingers, leans back, sighs back to hating on Uber. Everything is in it's right place
nkkollaw 9y ago
"In other news, people breath air".
petre 9y ago
Who gets a ticket or their driving license suspended for self driving vehicle traffic violations?
cjhanks 9y ago
I have been a regular biker in a few major cities. Frankly the only rule I was aware of was "try not to die, try not kill anyone". I'm not sure most people know what the correct action is with a bike lane in the right-most lane. On a bike, I assume I will go left of the right-turning car. In a car, I usually assume the bike will just have right-of-way and I wait.
digitalpacman 9y ago
This is correct behavior in lots of places. It's safer for when turning right to have a biker wait for you to turn. They have no right to "go first" unless they are already in the lane beside you or in front.
bootloop 9y ago
I saw Googles self-driving car (Waymo) doing exactly that in front of me. It used the bike lane for a while before turning right. (That was in Mountain View) Thought thats odd.
moocowtruck 9y ago
This is a great time to reflect. Self driving machines thought it made sense to drive in bike lanes.
btbuildem 9y ago
As many others pointed out, this is the correct behaviour. As a driver, I make sure to leave no space between my car and the curb when I intend to turn right. This reduces the chances of a cyclist sneaking through on the right. As a cyclist, I make sure to pass vehicles on their left, whether they are turning right, or stuck in slow traffic. It is safer, because very few people expect to be passed on the right. (locale settings: North America)
- odiroot 9y ago
  The behaviour you describe is AFAIR illegal in Germany. Bicycle lane is exactly that, just another lane. And it has right of way. If you need to turn, you wait until you're free to do it.
  - bo1024 9y ago
    It seems strange to me to require that people turn from an outside lane across a lane that goes straight. As a cyclist, this is one of my biggest constant fears. I think I feel safer if drivers have to merge into my lane first, then turn from my lane. Unfortunately in practice where I live in the US, most drivers aren't safe and don't look no matter which way they do it.
  - btbuildem 9y ago
    Oh, I meant roads in general, sorry.
outlog 9y ago
try living in a city with good, fully separated, and wide bike paths.. (copenhagen) some times even normal cars take the bike path - https://www.instagram.com/p/g590OCMlGe/ https://www.instagram.com/p/g590OCMlGe/ - the car has driven a good 300 meters from one intersection to the next..

I could use a clarification about expected driver behavior when turning right in the presence of a bike lane. And I need to acknowledge my internal reaction of judging this as one more “Uber-villain” style rule. Uner-corrupted, Uber-unscrupulous, uber-villainous to be more precise. Their brand image is firmly established for me.

jessaustin 9y ago
Yes that brand name is quite obnoxious. Airbnb might ignore just as many laws, but at least they have a goofy unpretentious name. The only thing I can think of like "Uber" except worse might be "Darth".
- andrei_says_ 9y ago
  I was referring about the brand established by the criminal behavior of Uber I read about on regular basis. What a company says about themselves is PR. How the company is perceived is Brand.

killbot5000 9y ago

Aren't you supposed to do that? It gives the bikers heads up to slow or navigate to the left of the vehicle turning right. Otherwise the chance for collision is higher when the vehicle suddenly cuts off the bikers during its turn. Edit: image from sf bicycle coalition. http://www.sfbike.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Right-Turn.jpg http://www.sfbike.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Right-Turn....

bdonlan 9y ago

This is, in fact, correct behavior: http://www.sfbike.org/news/bike-lanes-and-right-turns/ http://www.sfbike.org/news/bike-lanes-and-right-turns/ If turning traffic doesn't enter the bike lane, then it is turning right across the bike lane, which can lead to accidents where a bike collides with a turning vehicle. As such the correct behavior is to signal and enter the bike lane before turning. Of course, many human drivers fail to do this, so it's not surprising that people might be taken aback when they see self driving cars doing it...

derekp7 9y ago
Since it appears that enough people are confused about this, maybe the markings on the road should clarify the correct behavior (otherwise the danger is raised for everyone). Something like a turn lane painted at the intersection, with the bike lane having a yield sign just before the turn lane.
- therein 9y ago
  They do have those in San Francisco. Bike lane turns into dashed lines at the intersection and the right lane of traffic expands into the bike lane as the intersection gets closer.
  - jstarfish 9y ago
    This is also the case in southern California. This is not the case on the East coast. The bike lane line is solid all the way to the intersection.
    - SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
      It is the case in Hartford, CT.
      - BoorishBears 9y ago
        I lived in Downtown Hartford until last month, I don't recall many, if any bikes on roads. Then again, I do recall traffic being generally unsafe, I definitely would avoid riding a bike there.
        SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
        I'm near the West Hartford border, around the northeast greenway bike path. It's got the markings for cars to merge into the bike lane on right turns.

stevemk14ebr 9y ago

Some of these comments arguing that it's 'correct' behavior begs the question, do we want 'correct' or 'predictably expect-able' behavior. What i mean by that is most people would likely not expect a car to turn into that lane, even though it is 'correct'. Perhaps instead of following the rules so rigidly it should SOMETIMES break the rules to do the thing more like a human would, making it an all together safer system as humans would better be able to predict it's actions and adjust accordingly. This of course imposes lots of philosophical problems like which rules can be broken, and which not.

pessimizer 9y ago
I'd think in this case that ideally what we would want was for the Uber's behavior to become normalized among non-robot drivers, and become 'predictably expect-able.' What the Uber is doing is actually correct rather than 'correct.'
TheCoelacanth 9y ago
What really should happen is for humans to be taught about the correct behavior. This is a rule that should be enforced rigidly. Turning across bike lanes instead of from them endangers the lives of cyclists. Just because most drivers don't care whether cyclists live or die doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do.
- user5994461 9y ago
  Just because it's the expected behavior in california doesn't make it correct or right in the rest of the world. The other comments pointed out that california have dashed lines for bicycle lanes around intersections. That may be the signal.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

TheCoelacanth 9y ago

Apparently about a year ago they were getting complaints about exactly the opposite behavior: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/12/19/uber_selfdriving_car_and_bikes/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/12/19/uber_selfdriving_ca... They can't seem to win with this one.

greglindahl 9y ago
Given that different states have different laws, and in both cases the Uber car was violating the local state law, ... no, they aren't winning.

quirkot 9y ago

Not being prepared for different rules in different states seems like a big miss. cracks fingers, leans back, sighs back to hating on Uber. Everything is in it's right place

nkkollaw 9y ago

"In other news, people breath air".

petre 9y ago

Who gets a ticket or their driving license suspended for self driving vehicle traffic violations?

cjhanks 9y ago

I have been a regular biker in a few major cities. Frankly the only rule I was aware of was "try not to die, try not kill anyone". I'm not sure most people know what the correct action is with a bike lane in the right-most lane. On a bike, I assume I will go left of the right-turning car. In a car, I usually assume the bike will just have right-of-way and I wait.

digitalpacman 9y ago

This is correct behavior in lots of places. It's safer for when turning right to have a biker wait for you to turn. They have no right to "go first" unless they are already in the lane beside you or in front.

bootloop 9y ago

I saw Googles self-driving car (Waymo) doing exactly that in front of me. It used the bike lane for a while before turning right. (That was in Mountain View) Thought thats odd.

moocowtruck 9y ago

This is a great time to reflect. Self driving machines thought it made sense to drive in bike lanes.

btbuildem 9y ago

As many others pointed out, this is the correct behaviour. As a driver, I make sure to leave no space between my car and the curb when I intend to turn right. This reduces the chances of a cyclist sneaking through on the right. As a cyclist, I make sure to pass vehicles on their left, whether they are turning right, or stuck in slow traffic. It is safer, because very few people expect to be passed on the right. (locale settings: North America)

odiroot 9y ago
The behaviour you describe is AFAIR illegal in Germany. Bicycle lane is exactly that, just another lane. And it has right of way. If you need to turn, you wait until you're free to do it.
- bo1024 9y ago
  It seems strange to me to require that people turn from an outside lane across a lane that goes straight. As a cyclist, this is one of my biggest constant fears. I think I feel safer if drivers have to merge into my lane first, then turn from my lane. Unfortunately in practice where I live in the US, most drivers aren't safe and don't look no matter which way they do it.
- btbuildem 9y ago
  Oh, I meant roads in general, sorry.

outlog 9y ago

try living in a city with good, fully separated, and wide bike paths.. (copenhagen) some times even normal cars take the bike path - https://www.instagram.com/p/g590OCMlGe/ https://www.instagram.com/p/g590OCMlGe/ - the car has driven a good 300 meters from one intersection to the next..