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Or you'll see FB/others decide the EU isn't worth it over time. It's interesting how many people here believe that there is no other possibility other than "we

Or you'll see FB/others decide the EU isn't worth it over time. It's interesting how many people here believe that there is no other possibility other than "we get what we want to happen". Your faith is, IMHO, misplaced. There are many cases in history where other companies decided it wasn't worth the cost of doing business in certain countries. Or they just successfully coopted the governments!

qubex 9y ago
Are you mad? Miss out on a market of 740+ million of the world's richest consumers, twice the size of the US, the bulk of the western world and most of the developed economies on the planet?? No, that's absolutely not going to happen. Additionally, they'd never risk withdrawing from a market and letting a local competitor develop, take hold, expand, and attack them on home turf. Look at social networks and search engines in China. EDIT: I see you are fairly highly placed in Google. I'm quite surprised if you genuinely think what you wrote, given the raw numbers you must surely know, but given your legal training, I am not at all surprised that you would posture as if you were unaware of this.
- DannyBee 9y ago
  "EDIT: I see you are fairly highly placed in Google. I'm quite surprised if you genuinely think what you wrote, given the raw numbers you must surely know, but given your legal training, I am not at all surprised that you would posture as if you were unaware of this." Character assassination, awesome! Please leave the company i work for this out of this, always. I never speak for my company on hacker news unless i say otherwise. I've been very clear and consistent about that. Thanks! However, given the personal attack, i'm done. This kind of stupid bullshit is one reason i've stopped contributing as much lately. It's nice for you to present your opinion as if it was the only true possibility and everyone else is an idiot. It's not, however, a great way to foster a discussion. Tacking on a personal attack makes it even more welcoming.
  - qubex 9y ago
    That wasn't a character assassination. However, it's a very convenient cop-out for you to duck out of the discussion. Kindest regards, farewell.
    - DannyBee 9y ago
      "That wasn't a character assassination." It quite literally was (ie it's literally dictionary definition character assassination), and if you don't understand that, i'm not sure what to tell you "However, it's a very convenient cop-out for you to duck out of the discussion. " So, just to get this straight, your way of having a "discussion" is: 1. slag on someone's character and background for no reason. 2. drag irrelevant stuff into the mix. 3. Cast aspersions on their motivations for refusing to participate as a result. Yes, if that's how you have "discussions", please, feel free to keep me the hell out of them. I've participated in plenty contentious discussions on HN with actually civil people.
      - zajd 9y ago
        Man it says a lot about Google if your profile listing is actually true. How thinskinned can you be? Are you even going to try to respond to what he said? Do you find taking your ball and going home when challenged a winning strategy in the rest of your life?
  - zajd 9y ago
    This is probably the best way to prove his point for the record.
    - DannyBee 9y ago
      I'm okay if they, or anyone, thinks i "lost" or if makes them feel like their view is correct. That's always one of the possible consequences of doing what i did. Plenty of folks on HN know i'm happy to participate, even in contentious topics. I can get that kind of 'discussion' on Reddit. (IE Where the response would be someone pointing out that claiming someone else is posturing is itself posturing, etc). Meanwhile, i'll stick to HN discussions with people who assume good faith and actually want to talk about the topic. When that stops being a possibility, i'll delete my account and go do something else with the time.
- urbanjunkie 9y ago
  Google douchebro flees like a coward. Bye!
kenoph 9y ago
Honestly, I believe that the market is big enough to make it worth it anyway. But if they decide to leave, that could be a win-win. "Worst" case scenario, some EU-based company replace them and becomes a tech giant. I mean, look at Yandex or VK in Russia. Facebook (the website) is not rocket science. As for Google, replacing it could take time, but in the long run it's good to destroy their monopoly in Europe.
- kodablah 9y ago
  > Honestly, I believe that the market is big enough to make it worth it anyway. Not for some of us just starting our companies. "Worst" case scenario is smaller players that would otherwise play globally will now not play in the EU market. I was told the other day, "don't worry about it if you don't have sensitive data." That misunderstands risk management. I have plenty of customer potential on this side of the pond, why even risk it until I am large and have saturated my pool? I plan on handling my data completely within the spirit of that law, I just don't want to risk it. Seems on risk alone, others will have to make the same decision as me. We're not losing out really (we can only grow so fast) but those in the EU that might want access to the global market, big or small, might be.
  - kenoph 9y ago
    If smaller players do not want to comply with EU regulations, it's fine with me (I hope I got your point, but I'm not sure). If you want to do business in a place, you have to follow the local regulations. I don't see the problem there. I get that regulations make it more difficult for companies to enter a market, but if that means more protection for the user privacy (in this specific case), I cannot see how that could be a problem. The fact that the EU might have more data protection than, say, the US, could also be an added value to a service. Case in point: protonmail. It's not EU-based, but they use Swiss privacy regulations as a selling point. Some people are willing to pay more for that.
    - theptip 9y ago
      I think the point that the GP post is making (which I agree with) is not to complain about the burden of complying with local regs, but to point out that consumers in the EU are going to miss out if small companies don't offer their services there due to regulatory concerns. > I cannot see how that could be a problem. This is a cost/benefit calculation, but not an easy one. In general a given set of regulations will have both costs to the consumer such as reduced choice and increased prices (due to regulatory costs being passed through), and benefits such as better protection of personal information in this case. Now, the fact that users in the EU seem to currently be supportive of these regulations suggests that they are willing to pay that cost to get that benefit. And that's their decision! But consider the scenario where this trend carries on, and startups are increasingly not able to get a toehold due to incredibly high compliance costs. That could stifle the economic development in the EU, and lead to further concentration of power as only large companies can afford to pay the lawyer bills to meet the regulations.
theptip 9y ago
I'm sure you're correct that there is a price that FB/others would not be willing to pay to stay in the EU. It's a valid concern for consumers in that region, and it's one that I suspect isn't discussed enough when privacy advocates cheer on the EU's increased requirements in this area. I'd be very surprised if the case described in the OP was the last straw for FB in the EU though. By "change their tune" I really just meant that they will have to take another position than "your laws don't apply to us even though we do business in the EU". Exiting the EU would also be a change of tune as well! (I don't have any numbers here, and would be interested in your thoughts, but I'd be very surprised if regulatory compliance was eating as much as 10% of FB's profit in the EU. I'd guess it's more like 1%. But that's just shooting from the hip based on my experience in a more regulated space than FB's. I'd expect FB to remain in the EU until regulatory costs made it unprofitable; it would seem hard to justify any other approach to their shareholders.)
robrenaud 9y ago
I am skeptical. FB desperately wants to get into China, which seems way worse than the EU.
mbroncano 9y ago
Yeah, we already saw how that went on China [1]. The reality is, no board will in any circumstance quit doing business in the largest economic area in the world by far [2], at least if they want to keep their job. Thinking otherwise is just naïve, I'm afraid. In fact, my impression is that these policies encourage all involved actors into developing a better business model that can accommodate different sensibilities, and hopefully explore new revenue sources. I'm sure something good will come out out of this for FB and the rest of data moguls. The 'we sell your privacy for peanuts' is a rat race no matter how you look at it, and it is in fact slowly declining for everything but mobile according to some [3]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/13/business/google-ai-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/13/business/google-ai-china.... [2] http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/eu-position-in-world-trade/ http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/eu-position-in-world-trade/ [3] http://www.businessinsider.com/online-ads-revenues-going-to-google-and-facebook-the-most-2017-4 http://www.businessinsider.com/online-ads-revenues-going-to-...
- joshuamorton 9y ago
  >Yeah, we already saw how that went on China [1]. I don't really see how this is comparable. Google has had a subset of things available in China forever (translate, as a clear example), and interacts with China for certain things (AlphaGo). That doesn't change the fact that none of its "moneymaker" consumer products have operated there for years.
vidarh 9y ago
If Facebook decides the EU isn't worth its time, it leaves the door wide open for competitors to use the EU as a springboard, the way Chinese companies are doing in China. It's a very dangerous situation for them even if you ignore the vast lost market opportunities.
rmc 9y ago
Yes, it's possible that FB will abandon the EU market, but the EU is large, and I'm sure they get a lot of revenue from EU adverts. If they turn off access for the EU, then many people will try to produce a new social network that can play by EU rules. You already know the features that are needed, just look at what FB does now. Social networks are very suspectible to the network effect. This/these new companies will be able to operate in the USA and EU, whereas facebook chooses to avoid EU. So what happens when there is another social network that's about as big as Facebook? Is that a good move for FB?

qubex 9y ago

Are you mad? Miss out on a market of 740+ million of the world's richest consumers, twice the size of the US, the bulk of the western world and most of the developed economies on the planet?? No, that's absolutely not going to happen. Additionally, they'd never risk withdrawing from a market and letting a local competitor develop, take hold, expand, and attack them on home turf. Look at social networks and search engines in China. EDIT: I see you are fairly highly placed in Google. I'm quite surprised if you genuinely think what you wrote, given the raw numbers you must surely know, but given your legal training, I am not at all surprised that you would posture as if you were unaware of this.

DannyBee 9y ago
"EDIT: I see you are fairly highly placed in Google. I'm quite surprised if you genuinely think what you wrote, given the raw numbers you must surely know, but given your legal training, I am not at all surprised that you would posture as if you were unaware of this." Character assassination, awesome! Please leave the company i work for this out of this, always. I never speak for my company on hacker news unless i say otherwise. I've been very clear and consistent about that. Thanks! However, given the personal attack, i'm done. This kind of stupid bullshit is one reason i've stopped contributing as much lately. It's nice for you to present your opinion as if it was the only true possibility and everyone else is an idiot. It's not, however, a great way to foster a discussion. Tacking on a personal attack makes it even more welcoming.
- qubex 9y ago
  That wasn't a character assassination. However, it's a very convenient cop-out for you to duck out of the discussion. Kindest regards, farewell.
  - DannyBee 9y ago
    "That wasn't a character assassination." It quite literally was (ie it's literally dictionary definition character assassination), and if you don't understand that, i'm not sure what to tell you "However, it's a very convenient cop-out for you to duck out of the discussion. " So, just to get this straight, your way of having a "discussion" is: 1. slag on someone's character and background for no reason. 2. drag irrelevant stuff into the mix. 3. Cast aspersions on their motivations for refusing to participate as a result. Yes, if that's how you have "discussions", please, feel free to keep me the hell out of them. I've participated in plenty contentious discussions on HN with actually civil people.
    - zajd 9y ago
      Man it says a lot about Google if your profile listing is actually true. How thinskinned can you be? Are you even going to try to respond to what he said? Do you find taking your ball and going home when challenged a winning strategy in the rest of your life?
- zajd 9y ago
  This is probably the best way to prove his point for the record.
  - DannyBee 9y ago
    I'm okay if they, or anyone, thinks i "lost" or if makes them feel like their view is correct. That's always one of the possible consequences of doing what i did. Plenty of folks on HN know i'm happy to participate, even in contentious topics. I can get that kind of 'discussion' on Reddit. (IE Where the response would be someone pointing out that claiming someone else is posturing is itself posturing, etc). Meanwhile, i'll stick to HN discussions with people who assume good faith and actually want to talk about the topic. When that stops being a possibility, i'll delete my account and go do something else with the time.
urbanjunkie 9y ago
Google douchebro flees like a coward. Bye!

kenoph 9y ago

Honestly, I believe that the market is big enough to make it worth it anyway. But if they decide to leave, that could be a win-win. "Worst" case scenario, some EU-based company replace them and becomes a tech giant. I mean, look at Yandex or VK in Russia. Facebook (the website) is not rocket science. As for Google, replacing it could take time, but in the long run it's good to destroy their monopoly in Europe.

kodablah 9y ago
> Honestly, I believe that the market is big enough to make it worth it anyway. Not for some of us just starting our companies. "Worst" case scenario is smaller players that would otherwise play globally will now not play in the EU market. I was told the other day, "don't worry about it if you don't have sensitive data." That misunderstands risk management. I have plenty of customer potential on this side of the pond, why even risk it until I am large and have saturated my pool? I plan on handling my data completely within the spirit of that law, I just don't want to risk it. Seems on risk alone, others will have to make the same decision as me. We're not losing out really (we can only grow so fast) but those in the EU that might want access to the global market, big or small, might be.
- kenoph 9y ago
  If smaller players do not want to comply with EU regulations, it's fine with me (I hope I got your point, but I'm not sure). If you want to do business in a place, you have to follow the local regulations. I don't see the problem there. I get that regulations make it more difficult for companies to enter a market, but if that means more protection for the user privacy (in this specific case), I cannot see how that could be a problem. The fact that the EU might have more data protection than, say, the US, could also be an added value to a service. Case in point: protonmail. It's not EU-based, but they use Swiss privacy regulations as a selling point. Some people are willing to pay more for that.
  - theptip 9y ago
    I think the point that the GP post is making (which I agree with) is not to complain about the burden of complying with local regs, but to point out that consumers in the EU are going to miss out if small companies don't offer their services there due to regulatory concerns. > I cannot see how that could be a problem. This is a cost/benefit calculation, but not an easy one. In general a given set of regulations will have both costs to the consumer such as reduced choice and increased prices (due to regulatory costs being passed through), and benefits such as better protection of personal information in this case. Now, the fact that users in the EU seem to currently be supportive of these regulations suggests that they are willing to pay that cost to get that benefit. And that's their decision! But consider the scenario where this trend carries on, and startups are increasingly not able to get a toehold due to incredibly high compliance costs. That could stifle the economic development in the EU, and lead to further concentration of power as only large companies can afford to pay the lawyer bills to meet the regulations.

theptip 9y ago

I'm sure you're correct that there is a price that FB/others would not be willing to pay to stay in the EU. It's a valid concern for consumers in that region, and it's one that I suspect isn't discussed enough when privacy advocates cheer on the EU's increased requirements in this area. I'd be very surprised if the case described in the OP was the last straw for FB in the EU though. By "change their tune" I really just meant that they will have to take another position than "your laws don't apply to us even though we do business in the EU". Exiting the EU would also be a change of tune as well! (I don't have any numbers here, and would be interested in your thoughts, but I'd be very surprised if regulatory compliance was eating as much as 10% of FB's profit in the EU. I'd guess it's more like 1%. But that's just shooting from the hip based on my experience in a more regulated space than FB's. I'd expect FB to remain in the EU until regulatory costs made it unprofitable; it would seem hard to justify any other approach to their shareholders.)

robrenaud 9y ago

I am skeptical. FB desperately wants to get into China, which seems way worse than the EU.

mbroncano 9y ago

Yeah, we already saw how that went on China [1]. The reality is, no board will in any circumstance quit doing business in the largest economic area in the world by far [2], at least if they want to keep their job. Thinking otherwise is just naïve, I'm afraid. In fact, my impression is that these policies encourage all involved actors into developing a better business model that can accommodate different sensibilities, and hopefully explore new revenue sources. I'm sure something good will come out out of this for FB and the rest of data moguls. The 'we sell your privacy for peanuts' is a rat race no matter how you look at it, and it is in fact slowly declining for everything but mobile according to some [3]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/13/business/google-ai-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/13/business/google-ai-china.... [2] http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/eu-position-in-world-trade/ http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/eu-position-in-world-trade/ [3] http://www.businessinsider.com/online-ads-revenues-going-to-google-and-facebook-the-most-2017-4 http://www.businessinsider.com/online-ads-revenues-going-to-...

joshuamorton 9y ago
>Yeah, we already saw how that went on China [1]. I don't really see how this is comparable. Google has had a subset of things available in China forever (translate, as a clear example), and interacts with China for certain things (AlphaGo). That doesn't change the fact that none of its "moneymaker" consumer products have operated there for years.

vidarh 9y ago

If Facebook decides the EU isn't worth its time, it leaves the door wide open for competitors to use the EU as a springboard, the way Chinese companies are doing in China. It's a very dangerous situation for them even if you ignore the vast lost market opportunities.

rmc 9y ago

Yes, it's possible that FB will abandon the EU market, but the EU is large, and I'm sure they get a lot of revenue from EU adverts. If they turn off access for the EU, then many people will try to produce a new social network that can play by EU rules. You already know the features that are needed, just look at what FB does now. Social networks are very suspectible to the network effect. This/these new companies will be able to operate in the USA and EU, whereas facebook chooses to avoid EU. So what happens when there is another social network that's about as big as Facebook? Is that a good move for FB?