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> we're no where near the point in which it's the main obstacle to further adoption Sure. I'm talking about universal adoption because the article is ("take ov

by paol 9y ago

> we're no where near the point in which it's the main obstacle to further adoption Sure. I'm talking about universal adoption because the article is ("take over the world") > We don't drive especially far in a typical week This is a good point, EV range is already long enough that many urban drivers will not need to charge every day. > For some subset of street parkers, enough of that parking time will be spent at facilities with public chargers to meet their weekly charging needs. This subset will grow as electric charging infrastructure expands to more places. My point exactly: to reach close to 100% EV market penetration, so will the infrastructure need to grow to 100%. Tricks like going to that one Whole Foods store that has the fast chargers won't work when a significant % of cars are EVs, there simply will need to be a lot more public chargers (or, charging time will need to decrease).

crottypeter 9y ago
Decreasing charging time might not be as helpful as you think. Lets say a car can be fully charged in 30 minutes: So the driver shows up somewhere and parks in one of the EV charging spaces and plugs in his or her car. They are not going to hang around for 30 minutes so they connect the car and go about their business. When they get back 3 hours later... This is still a problem if you can charge in 5 minutes.
- kuro68k 9y ago
  Not really a problem. Putting chargers in every space in a car park is pretty cheap, they are basically just circuit breakers or even just ordinary domestic style sockets. Throw in a few fast ones for the people who need them and you are sorted. The fast chargers can be multi-head too, so even if someone finishes charging and doesn't come back someone else can still use it. Most rapid chargers are like that. Also, if it's still a problem with a five minute charge, why doesn't it affect petrol pumps?
  - PeterisP 9y ago
    Charging a car requires a nontrivial amount of electricity, so it's not sufficient to add a circuit breaker / socket, you also need a payment infrastructure unless e.g. the municipality is willing to sponsor the energy costs of everyone driving.
    - Dylan16807 9y ago
      Parking spaces in dense areas already act as a huge subsidy toward cars, so I don't think electrical cost is a deal-breaker. Or you glue on half a parking meter to turn the electricity on and off.
      - explainplease 9y ago
        > I don't think electrical cost is a deal-breaker. Do you have any numbers, or are you guessing?
        maxsilver 9y ago
        If you are talking about pure electrical cost, the average cost per kwh in the US is about 12 cents according to NPR. An average Nissan Leaf battery is about 24kwh (although some cars have much smaller or larger batteries). So if you assume an average Leaf is totally empty, and charging to completely full, that would be a little less than $3 of electricity for roughly 84 miles of range. To charge a car quickly takes a lot of electricity. But to trickle charge a car takes very little electricity. You can charge cars on as little as 120 volts at 8 amps -- that's less electricity than the average plug-in space heater. A small parking lot could easily handle 20+ cars simultaneously charging overnight, with just a single standard US household circuit. (100 - 150 amps).
        explainplease 9y ago
        That's interesting, thanks. But why didn't you consider other costs, such as equipment installation and maintenance? And what about the grid? Can the grid sustain the equivalent amount of energy that the nation's cars burn every day in gasoline?
  - walshemj 9y ago
    no because carparks don't have the electrical power availed to support charging hundreds or cars at at a time - they will have enough to run the lights but not enough to service hundreds of high amperage car chargers
    - wellboy 9y ago
      They won't need to charge hundreds of cars immediately. When car parks need to charge hundreds of cars at a time, it will be proditable for them to they will build power providing structures.
- Tepix 9y ago
  If you know you will be away for 3 hours, why not use a slow charger instead of the limited fast chargers (that are probably more expensive as well)?
  - pixl97 9y ago
    Why does everything good in the world get ruined? Because some people are just dicks. Unless there are active fines for holding up the queue in fast chargers, selfish people will make it worse for everyone.
    - ecpottinger 9y ago
      There are charges, after your car is fully charge if you leave it on the charger for more than 10 minutes you start to be charged for the the extra time you leave you car there.
    - fjsolwmv 9y ago
      A multihead charger can move the charge to a different head every few minutes, and can apply quotas or QoS priority.
- walshemj 9y ago
  er no because people are used to going to the gas /petrol station and being able to refuel in 10 min
wklauss 9y ago
> Sure. I'm talking about universal adoption because the article is ("take over the world") Once you reach a critical mass of users, taking over the world will be inevitable, even with some of the inconveniences. Finding a gas station, for example, will get harder for ICE drivers as EV vehicles take off (lots of gas stations will go out of business, so you'll have to drive longer to refill your car), auto shops capable of dealing with ICE will become more scarce and expensive, etc... At some point, the annoyance of owning an EV for some of the extreme edge cases will be less intense than the annoyance of owning an ICE vehicle. Even without proper infrastructure, the switch to an EV will be the only sensible move, even if it requires changing your habits.
- slfnflctd 9y ago
  I doubt many will go out of business. At least in the U.S. the stations themselves make maybe 2-3 cents a gallon profit, which likely doesn't even begin to cover operating costs. The vast majority of their income is from the convenience store items. All but the most poorly run will pay whatever is needed to install electric chargers and stay in the game.
  - nickpeterson 9y ago
    I think the point is that since most people will charge at night, and capacity keeps improving, eventually if evs become really common, people will have less opportunity to buy something at a gas station.
    - slfnflctd 9y ago
      That is definitely relevant, we don't know how much day-to-night load shifting will happen. On the other hand, there's also the probability that people who find themselves needing to charge during the day will often need more time than a gas fuelup would take, making them more likely to buy something. It's hard to predict what will happen of course, but those shop owners are going to fight to stay alive.
    - greedo 9y ago
gldalmaso 9y ago
It seems like Tesla is at least hinting to aim for a system where you can basically send your car out to charge and have it back when you need it. Combining auto pilot with this prototype, it is at least feasible that it could work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMM0lRfX6YI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMM0lRfX6YI Edit: Also this discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/5los32/can_a_tesla_drop_me_off_and_go_charge_itself/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/5los32/can_a_t...
walshemj 9y ago
And the effect on the grid and electricity infrastructure is non trivial and in the USA the grid is not as well developed as it is in the UK Europe so its even worse for the USA with its 110v standard
will_hughes 9y ago
> Tricks like going to that one Whole Foods store that has the fast chargers won't work when a significant % of cars are EVs, there simply will need to be a lot more public chargers Sure, same as it used to be awkward to have to hunt around for a power point in a coffee shop/mall/etc or to figure out where had wifi. Now that's pretty standard fare. Just like EV charging is today - in most countries there's quite a lot of places you can go to charge at. Soon it'll be every mall and shopping centre, because (at first) it'll be a way to attract customers, and then eventually it'll be expected.
Spooky23 9y ago
Why? When this becomes a problem, it will be a revenue source for parking garages, hotels, fast food, etc. Plus, many gas stations are like mini shopping centers now.
mikepavone 9y ago
> Sure. I'm talking about universal adoption because the article is ("take over the world") I'm not sure "taking over the world" is necessarily equivalent with universal adoption. Getting to a substantial majority of new car sales (currently only around 1% in the US) would qualify in my mind. > Tricks like going to that one Whole Foods store that has the fast chargers won't work when a significant % of cars are EVs, there simply will need to be a lot more public chargers Increased EV adoption will incentivize more investment in EV chargers. The chargers at businesses like Whole Foods are being installed with private capital because they think it makes business sense. More EVs means more demand for public chargers which will in turn justify increased investment in those chargers.

by paol 9y ago

crottypeter 9y ago

Decreasing charging time might not be as helpful as you think. Lets say a car can be fully charged in 30 minutes: So the driver shows up somewhere and parks in one of the EV charging spaces and plugs in his or her car. They are not going to hang around for 30 minutes so they connect the car and go about their business. When they get back 3 hours later... This is still a problem if you can charge in 5 minutes.

kuro68k 9y ago
Not really a problem. Putting chargers in every space in a car park is pretty cheap, they are basically just circuit breakers or even just ordinary domestic style sockets. Throw in a few fast ones for the people who need them and you are sorted. The fast chargers can be multi-head too, so even if someone finishes charging and doesn't come back someone else can still use it. Most rapid chargers are like that. Also, if it's still a problem with a five minute charge, why doesn't it affect petrol pumps?
- PeterisP 9y ago
  Charging a car requires a nontrivial amount of electricity, so it's not sufficient to add a circuit breaker / socket, you also need a payment infrastructure unless e.g. the municipality is willing to sponsor the energy costs of everyone driving.
  - Dylan16807 9y ago
    Parking spaces in dense areas already act as a huge subsidy toward cars, so I don't think electrical cost is a deal-breaker. Or you glue on half a parking meter to turn the electricity on and off.
    - explainplease 9y ago
      > I don't think electrical cost is a deal-breaker. Do you have any numbers, or are you guessing?
      - maxsilver 9y ago
        If you are talking about pure electrical cost, the average cost per kwh in the US is about 12 cents according to NPR. An average Nissan Leaf battery is about 24kwh (although some cars have much smaller or larger batteries). So if you assume an average Leaf is totally empty, and charging to completely full, that would be a little less than $3 of electricity for roughly 84 miles of range. To charge a car quickly takes a lot of electricity. But to trickle charge a car takes very little electricity. You can charge cars on as little as 120 volts at 8 amps -- that's less electricity than the average plug-in space heater. A small parking lot could easily handle 20+ cars simultaneously charging overnight, with just a single standard US household circuit. (100 - 150 amps).
        explainplease 9y ago
        That's interesting, thanks. But why didn't you consider other costs, such as equipment installation and maintenance? And what about the grid? Can the grid sustain the equivalent amount of energy that the nation's cars burn every day in gasoline?
- walshemj 9y ago
  no because carparks don't have the electrical power availed to support charging hundreds or cars at at a time - they will have enough to run the lights but not enough to service hundreds of high amperage car chargers
  - wellboy 9y ago
    They won't need to charge hundreds of cars immediately. When car parks need to charge hundreds of cars at a time, it will be proditable for them to they will build power providing structures.
Tepix 9y ago
If you know you will be away for 3 hours, why not use a slow charger instead of the limited fast chargers (that are probably more expensive as well)?
- pixl97 9y ago
  Why does everything good in the world get ruined? Because some people are just dicks. Unless there are active fines for holding up the queue in fast chargers, selfish people will make it worse for everyone.
  - ecpottinger 9y ago
    There are charges, after your car is fully charge if you leave it on the charger for more than 10 minutes you start to be charged for the the extra time you leave you car there.
  - fjsolwmv 9y ago
    A multihead charger can move the charge to a different head every few minutes, and can apply quotas or QoS priority.
walshemj 9y ago
er no because people are used to going to the gas /petrol station and being able to refuel in 10 min

wklauss 9y ago

> Sure. I'm talking about universal adoption because the article is ("take over the world") Once you reach a critical mass of users, taking over the world will be inevitable, even with some of the inconveniences. Finding a gas station, for example, will get harder for ICE drivers as EV vehicles take off (lots of gas stations will go out of business, so you'll have to drive longer to refill your car), auto shops capable of dealing with ICE will become more scarce and expensive, etc... At some point, the annoyance of owning an EV for some of the extreme edge cases will be less intense than the annoyance of owning an ICE vehicle. Even without proper infrastructure, the switch to an EV will be the only sensible move, even if it requires changing your habits.

slfnflctd 9y ago
I doubt many will go out of business. At least in the U.S. the stations themselves make maybe 2-3 cents a gallon profit, which likely doesn't even begin to cover operating costs. The vast majority of their income is from the convenience store items. All but the most poorly run will pay whatever is needed to install electric chargers and stay in the game.
- nickpeterson 9y ago
  I think the point is that since most people will charge at night, and capacity keeps improving, eventually if evs become really common, people will have less opportunity to buy something at a gas station.
  - slfnflctd 9y ago
    That is definitely relevant, we don't know how much day-to-night load shifting will happen. On the other hand, there's also the probability that people who find themselves needing to charge during the day will often need more time than a gas fuelup would take, making them more likely to buy something. It's hard to predict what will happen of course, but those shop owners are going to fight to stay alive.
  - greedo 9y ago

gldalmaso 9y ago

It seems like Tesla is at least hinting to aim for a system where you can basically send your car out to charge and have it back when you need it. Combining auto pilot with this prototype, it is at least feasible that it could work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMM0lRfX6YI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMM0lRfX6YI Edit: Also this discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/5los32/can_a_tesla_drop_me_off_and_go_charge_itself/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/5los32/can_a_t...

walshemj 9y ago

And the effect on the grid and electricity infrastructure is non trivial and in the USA the grid is not as well developed as it is in the UK Europe so its even worse for the USA with its 110v standard

will_hughes 9y ago

> Tricks like going to that one Whole Foods store that has the fast chargers won't work when a significant % of cars are EVs, there simply will need to be a lot more public chargers Sure, same as it used to be awkward to have to hunt around for a power point in a coffee shop/mall/etc or to figure out where had wifi. Now that's pretty standard fare. Just like EV charging is today - in most countries there's quite a lot of places you can go to charge at. Soon it'll be every mall and shopping centre, because (at first) it'll be a way to attract customers, and then eventually it'll be expected.

Spooky23 9y ago

Why? When this becomes a problem, it will be a revenue source for parking garages, hotels, fast food, etc. Plus, many gas stations are like mini shopping centers now.

mikepavone 9y ago

> Sure. I'm talking about universal adoption because the article is ("take over the world") I'm not sure "taking over the world" is necessarily equivalent with universal adoption. Getting to a substantial majority of new car sales (currently only around 1% in the US) would qualify in my mind. > Tricks like going to that one Whole Foods store that has the fast chargers won't work when a significant % of cars are EVs, there simply will need to be a lot more public chargers Increased EV adoption will incentivize more investment in EV chargers. The chargers at businesses like Whole Foods are being installed with private capital because they think it makes business sense. More EVs means more demand for public chargers which will in turn justify increased investment in those chargers.