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> Price of an electric car powertrain: $16,000 > Price of a conventional car powertrain: $6,000 Can anyone provide a better source for this? This is exactly

> Price of an electric car powertrain: $16,000 > Price of a conventional car powertrain: $6,000 Can anyone provide a better source for this? This is exactly the opposite of what I expected. I thought electric powertrains had far fewer (in the hundreds, even) moving parts? Edit: Coffee hasn't kicked in yet. As user analognoise points out, this is literally answered by the sentence that follows the above: How soon that day arrives is almost solely a function of the price of batteries.

analognoise 9y ago
Batteries aren't cheap.
- bigbugbag 9y ago
  Are batteries part of the powertrain though ?
  - randyrand 9y ago
    The power train means the parts needed for creating the mechanical power. Batteries are the most essential part in that.
  - alkonaut 9y ago
    Yes, for hybrid and electric vehicles the batteries are now considered part of the powertrain, although the fuel tank was as far as I know never considered part of the power train for an ICE vehicle.
    - avar 9y ago
      Because if the fuel tank breaks you can just weld pretty much any replacement on and it'll work, you could even use a bucket on the back of your pick-up trunk & a hose as a temporary replacement. That's not the case with electric cars and their batteries. They're deeply integrated with the rest of the powertrain.
  - igravious 9y ago
    If they are, they oughn't be. Batteries are like a really really expensive fuel tank. The fuel happens to be way cheaper. That's the trade-off. The article fails to mention this, which is odd. ICE: powertrain + fuel tank ~$6,000 (or whatever your local currency) … EV: powertrain + fuel tank ~$16,000 … That makes more sense, but then you'd need – cost of fuel per mile/kilometre ICE: 10¢ a mile EV: 1¢ a mile (or sometimes free?) That's why people are buying electric vehicles already. Okay, maybe it's partly environmental, but surely it is also because they figure that running costs are lower over the lifetime so they might break even overall. As battery prices drop, electric vehicles only become even more economical in the long run.
    - saturdaysaint 9y ago
      At the the cost/mile rates that you list, it would probably take 6 years or so to break even (also factoring in the cost savings from oil changes and belts). For the U.S. middle class, at least, that's probably too long of an investment horizon (it's amazing to me how many people lease and buy brand new cars without even doing the math about a used vehicle). So I imagine that there will be a significant uptake in the U.S. when people can expect to save money within the life of a lease, which could be as soon as 3 years with a few bumps in fuel prices.
benjaminl 9y ago
Almost all of that is the battery. Even though batteries are coming down in price, they are still very expensive. For example GM’s list price for the Bolt battery is $15,734. Now this is the replacement cost Bolt owners pay for a new battery not the actual cost, but it gives an indication of their cost. https://electrek.co/2017/06/12/gm-bolt-ev-battery-pack-price-cost/ https://electrek.co/2017/06/12/gm-bolt-ev-battery-pack-price...
- ianai 9y ago
  How much power does the electric motor need? -edit- found it https://www.quora.com/How-much-power-is-required-by-the-motor-to-run-the-car-electric-car-in-watts https://www.quora.com/How-much-power-is-required-by-the-moto... 80kw to accelerate and 1 kw to maintain. -edit 2- how come no ones put 3 solar panels on top of an EV? Three of the following could output 1 kw and fit in the space available. http://www.solarwholesale.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Silfab-SLA-M-280-and-300-Spec-Sheet-Solar-Wholesale.pdf http://www.solarwholesale.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Sil... Seems like an obvious for electric semis where there’s often plenty of sun (aka an ever increasing portion of the US)
  - pjc50 9y ago
    That has to be a typo and the real number more like 10kw - 1kw is 1.3HP, lawnmower engine territory.
  - mtgx 9y ago
    Model S has about 500 kW, Model 3 300 kW, Bolt 150 kW, Renault Zoe like 50 kW. As for the other question, the solar panels provide way too little charge for the given area. When EVs are all about to have 100+ kWh batteries soon, it doesn't make sense to have a solar roof top: https://www.engineering.com/ElectronicsDesign/ElectronicsDesignArticles/ArticleID/15290/Why-the-Tesla-Model-3-Will-NOT-Have-a-Solar-Roof.aspx https://www.engineering.com/ElectronicsDesign/ElectronicsDes...
    - ianai 9y ago
      The numbers in that article seem chosen as low bars to prove a point. There are panels with much greater efficiency/density and lower cost. If it doesn’t make sense today it will in the future. If a company could move their trucks for “free” for 5 hours/day they would.
Cthulhu_ 9y ago
The article doesn't have a headline that takes total cost of ownership into account. I mean annual oil change, the odd broken alternator (probably also a problem in electric cars), filters, distribution drive / chain, and a ton of extra moving parts that all need maintenance. Mind you I wonder if electric cars can get a million miles out of them, like well maintained conventional cars can do.

analognoise 9y ago

Batteries aren't cheap.

bigbugbag 9y ago
Are batteries part of the powertrain though ?
- randyrand 9y ago
  The power train means the parts needed for creating the mechanical power. Batteries are the most essential part in that.
- alkonaut 9y ago
  Yes, for hybrid and electric vehicles the batteries are now considered part of the powertrain, although the fuel tank was as far as I know never considered part of the power train for an ICE vehicle.
  - avar 9y ago
    Because if the fuel tank breaks you can just weld pretty much any replacement on and it'll work, you could even use a bucket on the back of your pick-up trunk & a hose as a temporary replacement. That's not the case with electric cars and their batteries. They're deeply integrated with the rest of the powertrain.
- igravious 9y ago
  If they are, they oughn't be. Batteries are like a really really expensive fuel tank. The fuel happens to be way cheaper. That's the trade-off. The article fails to mention this, which is odd. ICE: powertrain + fuel tank ~$6,000 (or whatever your local currency) … EV: powertrain + fuel tank ~$16,000 … That makes more sense, but then you'd need – cost of fuel per mile/kilometre ICE: 10¢ a mile EV: 1¢ a mile (or sometimes free?) That's why people are buying electric vehicles already. Okay, maybe it's partly environmental, but surely it is also because they figure that running costs are lower over the lifetime so they might break even overall. As battery prices drop, electric vehicles only become even more economical in the long run.
  - saturdaysaint 9y ago
    At the the cost/mile rates that you list, it would probably take 6 years or so to break even (also factoring in the cost savings from oil changes and belts). For the U.S. middle class, at least, that's probably too long of an investment horizon (it's amazing to me how many people lease and buy brand new cars without even doing the math about a used vehicle). So I imagine that there will be a significant uptake in the U.S. when people can expect to save money within the life of a lease, which could be as soon as 3 years with a few bumps in fuel prices.

benjaminl 9y ago

Almost all of that is the battery. Even though batteries are coming down in price, they are still very expensive. For example GM’s list price for the Bolt battery is $15,734. Now this is the replacement cost Bolt owners pay for a new battery not the actual cost, but it gives an indication of their cost. https://electrek.co/2017/06/12/gm-bolt-ev-battery-pack-price-cost/ https://electrek.co/2017/06/12/gm-bolt-ev-battery-pack-price...

ianai 9y ago
How much power does the electric motor need? -edit- found it https://www.quora.com/How-much-power-is-required-by-the-motor-to-run-the-car-electric-car-in-watts https://www.quora.com/How-much-power-is-required-by-the-moto... 80kw to accelerate and 1 kw to maintain. -edit 2- how come no ones put 3 solar panels on top of an EV? Three of the following could output 1 kw and fit in the space available. http://www.solarwholesale.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Silfab-SLA-M-280-and-300-Spec-Sheet-Solar-Wholesale.pdf http://www.solarwholesale.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Sil... Seems like an obvious for electric semis where there’s often plenty of sun (aka an ever increasing portion of the US)
- pjc50 9y ago
  That has to be a typo and the real number more like 10kw - 1kw is 1.3HP, lawnmower engine territory.
- mtgx 9y ago
  Model S has about 500 kW, Model 3 300 kW, Bolt 150 kW, Renault Zoe like 50 kW. As for the other question, the solar panels provide way too little charge for the given area. When EVs are all about to have 100+ kWh batteries soon, it doesn't make sense to have a solar roof top: https://www.engineering.com/ElectronicsDesign/ElectronicsDesignArticles/ArticleID/15290/Why-the-Tesla-Model-3-Will-NOT-Have-a-Solar-Roof.aspx https://www.engineering.com/ElectronicsDesign/ElectronicsDes...
  - ianai 9y ago
    The numbers in that article seem chosen as low bars to prove a point. There are panels with much greater efficiency/density and lower cost. If it doesn’t make sense today it will in the future. If a company could move their trucks for “free” for 5 hours/day they would.

Cthulhu_ 9y ago

The article doesn't have a headline that takes total cost of ownership into account. I mean annual oil change, the odd broken alternator (probably also a problem in electric cars), filters, distribution drive / chain, and a ton of extra moving parts that all need maintenance. Mind you I wonder if electric cars can get a million miles out of them, like well maintained conventional cars can do.