3 ms·

I've been a physician for about 16 years. I won't defend the guy, it's just that I routinely see things that I would consider worse: doctors drunk at work, doc

I've been a physician for about 16 years. I won't defend the guy, it's just that I routinely see things that I would consider worse: doctors drunk at work, doctors who sleep with medical students in exchange for good evaluations, rampant cheating in medical school, rampant stimulant abuse, and the list goes on and on... It's unethical for sure, but I guess my gut reaction is that it's not necessarily an offense that demands termination.

deleted 9y ago
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theprotocol 9y ago
>it's not necessarily an offense that demands termination. Someone murdered someone near my workplace. This surgeon branding his initials on someone's liver isn't so bad in comparison. Therefore, it isn't so bad in the absolute. You set up the slope yourself and then proceeded to slip on it.
- saiya-jin 9y ago
  Reality is, tons of doctors have all kinds of issues (my fiancee is a doctor in one of the biggest hospital in Switzerland). As mentioned - substance abuse, tremendous pressures at work and massive overtimes (suicides aren't that rare, some just quit profession or downgrade to become a nurse). Ever thought that when you are admitted, doctor will quickly check youtube to look FOR THE FIRST TIME how to perform some minor (or not) procedure? Ever thought that patients would die or get seriously, permanently injured just because somebody forgot to do some checks? You thought that most senior surgeons are just workoholic egomaniacs, dependant on various legal or illegal substances that healthy person shuldn't touch, ever? And this is Switzerland. In ideal world, you're completely right. In real world out there, where ALL OF US make mistakes all the time, including doctors, this is really 'meh' category that I wouldn't mind at all on me, as long as doctor's performance is consistently solid. Maybe slap on the wrist in form of demotion / ban of practice for a year or two. Put a mandatory psychological treatment for true reason of this behaviour (we're society after all and should help each other, not banish them to hell for any mistake). Otherwise, if your would apply super high standards consistently across all staff, you would see plenty of people dying due to no staff in hospitals. Sad but real.
bdcravens 9y ago
You don't think he should lose his license?
c3534l 9y ago
This seems way worse than those things. Relationship problems, nepotism, and drug and alcohol abuse are problems. But permanently vandalizing a living human body while the person is unconscious goes far beyond the pale. The person should do jail time in addition to being permanently barred from medicine. Defiling a patient's body for "fun" should be taken extremely seriously.
- chesimov 9y ago
  To me, a doctor drunk at work is far, far worse. I would much rather have a doctor initial my liver but still do a good job of fixing my problem, than have a drunk doctor operate on me (or treat me in any sense actually). I suspect a lot of the outrage is to do with the insult to human dignity that initialing someone's organs brings. But look at the outcomes.
  - Aeolun 9y ago
    Yeah, if someone's initialing my liver, that's probably a good indication the operation went well :P
    - DanBC 9y ago
      That's the defence he used. Something like "this is a work of art, and I'm proud of the skill and care I took"
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    What if your liver developed a problem due to getting initialed? What if every doctor operating on you felt that carving their name in you was their right? How about the entire team? After all, the outcomes are what matters right... Really, this is improper, it's nothing to do with human dignity, it's got everything to do with trust and consent. And consent is - in case you didn't know it - a rather large plank in our doctor-patient relationships. Doctors are supposed to do what's necessary, frivolous actions are not supposed to be part of the package.
    - 9y ago
jacquesm 9y ago
Doctors are people too, so whatever ails the general population should not be a surprise to be found among doctors. Drug abuse was pretty common (after all, easy access to drugs) as was sexual abuse of doctors with patients. Even so, to treat your patients as a tree to carve your name in when they're powerless to do anything about it has a deliberate component that is inexcusable way beyond doctors simply being human. Also, it would help if you did not include the word 'fantast' in a novelty account while making claims of being a physician for 16 years and then making light of this. Either you really are a fantast or you are not exactly a credit to your profession if you really believe that this does not warrant termination. As a patient I'm pretty cool with it, if I go under to trust a doctor with my life I'd rather not they use me as a calligraphy scratchpad and if it takes one doctor out of all those out there to be made an example of then it's a loss but not a large enough loss to offset the breach of trust between doctors and patients the world over by this guy.
- deleted 9y ago
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firstplacelast 9y ago
That opinion stems from a place of privilege and over-entitlement. UPS drivers would get fired for ALL of that behavior, to not hold yourself to that standard at a minimum is shameful. If it is a question of 'not having enough doctors' so we need to keep bad physicians around, then that's another reason that we need to drastically increase our enrollments for medical school. We certainly have enough willing and able Americans that would be ecstatic for the opportunity. I assume physicians have something like law-enforcement's 'blue line', but it's pretty imperative that professionals like you hold each other accountable.

deleted 9y ago

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theprotocol 9y ago

>it's not necessarily an offense that demands termination. Someone murdered someone near my workplace. This surgeon branding his initials on someone's liver isn't so bad in comparison. Therefore, it isn't so bad in the absolute. You set up the slope yourself and then proceeded to slip on it.

saiya-jin 9y ago
Reality is, tons of doctors have all kinds of issues (my fiancee is a doctor in one of the biggest hospital in Switzerland). As mentioned - substance abuse, tremendous pressures at work and massive overtimes (suicides aren't that rare, some just quit profession or downgrade to become a nurse). Ever thought that when you are admitted, doctor will quickly check youtube to look FOR THE FIRST TIME how to perform some minor (or not) procedure? Ever thought that patients would die or get seriously, permanently injured just because somebody forgot to do some checks? You thought that most senior surgeons are just workoholic egomaniacs, dependant on various legal or illegal substances that healthy person shuldn't touch, ever? And this is Switzerland. In ideal world, you're completely right. In real world out there, where ALL OF US make mistakes all the time, including doctors, this is really 'meh' category that I wouldn't mind at all on me, as long as doctor's performance is consistently solid. Maybe slap on the wrist in form of demotion / ban of practice for a year or two. Put a mandatory psychological treatment for true reason of this behaviour (we're society after all and should help each other, not banish them to hell for any mistake). Otherwise, if your would apply super high standards consistently across all staff, you would see plenty of people dying due to no staff in hospitals. Sad but real.

bdcravens 9y ago

You don't think he should lose his license?

c3534l 9y ago

This seems way worse than those things. Relationship problems, nepotism, and drug and alcohol abuse are problems. But permanently vandalizing a living human body while the person is unconscious goes far beyond the pale. The person should do jail time in addition to being permanently barred from medicine. Defiling a patient's body for "fun" should be taken extremely seriously.

chesimov 9y ago
To me, a doctor drunk at work is far, far worse. I would much rather have a doctor initial my liver but still do a good job of fixing my problem, than have a drunk doctor operate on me (or treat me in any sense actually). I suspect a lot of the outrage is to do with the insult to human dignity that initialing someone's organs brings. But look at the outcomes.
- Aeolun 9y ago
  Yeah, if someone's initialing my liver, that's probably a good indication the operation went well :P
  - DanBC 9y ago
    That's the defence he used. Something like "this is a work of art, and I'm proud of the skill and care I took"
- jacquesm 9y ago
  What if your liver developed a problem due to getting initialed? What if every doctor operating on you felt that carving their name in you was their right? How about the entire team? After all, the outcomes are what matters right... Really, this is improper, it's nothing to do with human dignity, it's got everything to do with trust and consent. And consent is - in case you didn't know it - a rather large plank in our doctor-patient relationships. Doctors are supposed to do what's necessary, frivolous actions are not supposed to be part of the package.
  - 9y ago

jacquesm 9y ago

Doctors are people too, so whatever ails the general population should not be a surprise to be found among doctors. Drug abuse was pretty common (after all, easy access to drugs) as was sexual abuse of doctors with patients. Even so, to treat your patients as a tree to carve your name in when they're powerless to do anything about it has a deliberate component that is inexcusable way beyond doctors simply being human. Also, it would help if you did not include the word 'fantast' in a novelty account while making claims of being a physician for 16 years and then making light of this. Either you really are a fantast or you are not exactly a credit to your profession if you really believe that this does not warrant termination. As a patient I'm pretty cool with it, if I go under to trust a doctor with my life I'd rather not they use me as a calligraphy scratchpad and if it takes one doctor out of all those out there to be made an example of then it's a loss but not a large enough loss to offset the breach of trust between doctors and patients the world over by this guy.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

firstplacelast 9y ago

That opinion stems from a place of privilege and over-entitlement. UPS drivers would get fired for ALL of that behavior, to not hold yourself to that standard at a minimum is shameful. If it is a question of 'not having enough doctors' so we need to keep bad physicians around, then that's another reason that we need to drastically increase our enrollments for medical school. We certainly have enough willing and able Americans that would be ecstatic for the opportunity. I assume physicians have something like law-enforcement's 'blue line', but it's pretty imperative that professionals like you hold each other accountable.