33 ms·

In Japan, small children take the subway and run errands alone (2015)

• merloen 9y ago
  Is there any nation in which kids are less independent than in the U.S.?
  • kaptain 9y ago
    China. Two strong influences: an idolization of western parenting plus the one child policy. Take your caricature of a dependent US kid and add the pressure and coddling of six parents.
    • seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      And yet, you’ll see first graders walking alone or in adult free groups to the convenience store during lunch to get something to eat. It’s only really the black Audi crowd that super coddle their children. My hunanese wife had free reign of the city since elementary school, things are not that different now.
  • forkerenok 9y ago
    I'm observing a massive decline in children independence in Russia as well compared to the "good old Soviet times" and early (pretty violent though) 90s. It is a helpless feeling that emerged is the age of kidnappers, organ harvesting etc. Or has nothing really changed since then and it is just that we're exposed to massive amounts of FUD in the new era of mass media?
    • wolco 9y ago
      As crime rates dropped the television shows people watched focused more on exploiting the fear around crime against children.
    • forkerenok 9y ago
      Edit: to answer the actual question: I don't think (that's really subjective and I don't have kids) Russia has reached yet the "typical level of overparenting" in the US.
    • djsumdog 9y ago
      I think it's a lot more fear, uncertainty/doubt. Kids are most likely to be a victim of crime at home by family members. That's where most abuse happens. The random kidnapping is more in the movies that reality.
      • briandear 9y ago
        That’s a fact. Doug Stanhope has a great bit about how your kid can go his entire life without being raped by a man in a van.
  • mmsimanga 9y ago
    In South Africa you get a mix. Upper middle class and rich driven to school with some parents even walking children into class. Poor and working-class kids catch public transport. They have no other option. Unfortunately, we have a fair amount of violent crime and the result is kids have less freedom to roam.
  • briandear 9y ago
    Good grief; must every thread devolve into “are there any countries [worse] than the US?” I live in France (I am American) and my 6 year old has walked to the store by himself and his French classmate’s parents think that’s insane. It’s a scandle when my 3 year old plays on playground equipment designed my 6 year olds. I took my kids rock climbing in Chamonix when they were 3 and 4 years old and had them properly harnessed and roped and you would have thunk I pushed them out of an airplane. Our Italian guide was having a great time while the French families were clucking disapproval between bouts of amazement. I know plenty of UK parents in France that keep their kids on tighter leashes than even the French. This idea that “American kids are less independent than others” is just nonsense. It’s all situational — a suburban kid might have to walk 3 miles to get to a shop or a school — that’s a much different context than some kid walking in a neighborhood where everything is a block or two away. When I am in Cupertino, I see elementary school kids riding their scooters to school unattended and when I was in Korea, there were plenty of teenagers getting picked up by their parents to walk theee blocks home. Let’s stop generalizing so much. All of this depends on the relative safety of an area and not the nationalities involved.
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• rdtsc 9y ago
  > Japan has a very low crime rate, which is surely a key reason parents feel confident about sending their kids out alone. I grew up in a relatively high crime area but still walked to school and sometimes took public transport. The only thing that made it somewhat unsafe was the bullying by other school kids. Of course there is an overlap there as yesterday's bullies are tomorrow's criminals, but still it wasn't enough to have parents escort me. Sometimes strangers intervened to save me from a few attacks by groups of older kids. So maybe there is an element there as well of people not minding asking kids what's happening, why are they pushing this one kid to the ground. Now living in US in a much safer area I would think very well before sending my kids to school by themselves at the age when I was going to school by myself. The reason is neighbors who could report me to the police for "child endangerment or neglect". It happened to a co-worker. One of the neighbors reported them to the police while kids were playing out in the front by themselves. It issue was resolved but not without embarrassing calls to work and home visits.
  • NicoJuicy 9y ago
    You could go to the police and ask, if something happens ( neglect), you can reference to the talk with a police officer
    • 77pt77 9y ago
      No legal validity whatsoever
      • smichel17 9y ago
        That's not entirely true. IANAL, nor am I familiar with this particular area of the law, but many places of the law include the concept of a "reasonable person". That is, whether you have acted as a reasonable person would act. In a place where the law is clearly defined, you're correct, that wouldn't help. However, when the law is vague, a documented conversation like that is definitely good evidence that one was acting reasonably.
      • NicoJuicy 9y ago
• raarts 9y ago
  Related: http://web.kitsapsun.com/archive/1998/06-20/0063_world_cup_soccer__japanese_cleani.html http://web.kitsapsun.com/archive/1998/06-20/0063_world_cup_s...
• djsumdog 9y ago
  I'd often seen kids on the tram in Melbourne. Rarely on their own though, almost always in groups. In Wellington, you'd see them occasionally too in the mornings. They had dedicated school buses (city buses with the "School" sign on the front), but if kids were running late and missed their bus, you'd often see them on regular public transport. One of the big problems is the lack of public transport in the US. Even with cities with good transit, the minimum age for kids on buses/trains is usually 12 (wasn't there an article on HN earlier about a New York man who's kids rode the bus in a group of three and how social services said he couldn't do that any more until one of them turned 13? I can't seem to find it now..) Crime is more perception then a real issue. You're always most likely to be a victim of a crime by a family member at home. Actual child abductions are more hollywood and rarely real life. When it does happens, it's usually someone who knows the child via family. I feel like this is yet another problem that could be solved via real transit and which will just be made worse by self-driving cars.
  • vim_wannabe 9y ago
    There's perception for sure but crime rates are quite something else in US versus Australia or Japan.
    • TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
      We need to make a clear distinction here between crime rates in general and crimes where a child is involved and the perpetrator(s) and strangers. As far as I'm aware the biggest dangers to children are their cohabitating relatives followed closely by non-resident family and friends. The solution to this issue for me was to move away from the big city I was in to a much smaller one, where the kids next door and a few houses down play in the street and my neighbors talk to me.
      • eru 9y ago
        > As far as I'm aware the biggest dangers to children are their cohabitating relatives followed closely by non-resident family and friends. Or getting hit by a car. Driven by a stranger or otherwise. Based on my anecdotal experience, prevalence of car culture seems to influence whether kids can roam quite a lot.
• Taniwha 9y ago
  I walked to school at 5 in New Zealand, took the bus to town at 10 to go to the library or the pool. My son at 11 took the BART to and from school from Berkeley/Oakland to El Cerito, other parents were horrified - we moved back to NZ a couple of years later, handed both kids a bus timetable and a phone and sent them off to town to explore. One of our main goals as a parent is to create independent kids who can function alone in the world - we don't want them still living in the basement at 30
  • throwaway613834 9y ago
    > One of our main goals as a parent is to create independent kids who can function alone in the world - we don't want them still living in the basement at 30 FYI this is a cultural thing. Not every culture's parents kicks out their children when they turn 18. So if it doesn't work out this way for whatever reason, don't view it as right or wrong unless you feel it's wrong to go against the culture (which also isn't inherently wrong either).
    • Taniwha 9y ago
      Oh we didn't kick them out, they left when they wanted to go, and have come back at times when it has made sense (after college for a while to save money for example).
      • deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
    • keerthiko 9y ago
      American culture is the ultra-contradiction of both expecting kids to be independent at 18 (or 22 with well-to-do families) AND kids not being able to develop that independence at all growing up. EDIT: The expectation of independence at 18 is not just between parents and the kid, but sometimes the kid's older SO, or society, or some other people who constantly repeat "once you're 18 you can do what you want", except they have no idea how to do it responsibly.
  • Silhouette 9y ago
• kyberias 9y ago
  In Finland, kids walk to school by themselves from age 7. Depends on the distance of course.
  • stevekemp 9y ago
    I've seen younger-still kids walking around in the mornings, even in the snow at the height of winter, presumably going to day-care. (Worth noting for others that children start "proper" school at 7 in Finland. Something that surprised me when I moved here.)
  • gambiting 9y ago
    In Poland, when I was 7 years old, by the time I had to go to school my parents have already gone to work,so I had to make myself some food, lock the door behind me, and walk for 15 minutes to school. But we also had kids taking buses to school, and they were normal public buses, not a dedicated school bus(never heard of such concept in Poland to be honest).
    • cube2222 9y ago
      To comment on this - also living in Poland. The concept exists in Poland, but only in a few private schools, mainly those marked as "American schools". I think the main reason is that public transit is magnitudes better and more widespread here, than in the US.
      • mamon 9y ago
        School buses are the real thing in Poland, my father has been driving one for the last 15 years :) It's just that they are more popular in rural areas (you know, grabbing kids from all those small villages and driving them to school in the nearby town). In big cities, like Warsaw there actually aren't any, as schools are usually within walking distance, and if they aren't then the normal public transport is supposed to fill in.
  • lultimouomo 9y ago
    In nothern Finland, I've seen kids dropped off by the bus in the middle of the snow covered woods. Younger ones had someone picking them up, but kids around 10 just started walking with the sun already setting off to a house that was absolutely nowhere in sight. They do have sisu!
• volgo 9y ago
  The end results of monoculturalism, aversion to immigration, and high work ethics. Kudos to the Japanese for creating such a safe and trusting society.
  • pimmen 9y ago
    Wow, you were very quick at turning correlations into causations there. Canada also has a very low crime rate but has a very multicultural society, same thing with Singapore. Rethoric like that could also get your case into trouble. By your logic, their monoculturalism, aversion to immigration and high work ethics created a decade of poor economic growth and deflation. I should add that I took public transportation around Gothenburg all the time from 10 years old. Is Sweden a monocultural country with high aversion to immigration and good work ethics?
    • Sharlin 9y ago
      I have no idea why you were downvoted. The GP is basically the dictionary definition of cum hoc ergo propter hoc.
      • krapp 9y ago
        Invoking Japanese culture as an exemplar of a successful society based on the enforcement of ethnic purity and homogeneity has become a bit of a rhetorical hobbyhorse for right and alt-right wingers, of which there are many on HN.
    • C6C6C6C 9y ago
      > same thing with Singapore. I don't know much about Canada as to whether your suggestions are true or not (statistics are so easy to manipulate) but Singapore is a terrible example to give in just about any context. Singapore did manage to lower crime in a multicultural aka multiconflictual society. It did so by destroying an individual's freedom and enforcing the rule of law the most brutal way possible. We are talking about a country that puts you in jail for blaspheming religion or even just littering. Singapore also banned homosexuality. Actually I wouldn't mind if we were to follow Singapore's example of enforced social harmony, go ahead, it will be funny to watch the left in the west go crazy over freedom issues like when Singapore banned foreign preachers from entering their territory. The only, single thing that is similar between a leftist wet dream and Singapore is multiculturalism. Everything else about Singapore is not a leftist dream but their very nightmare. And it's that "everything else" that allowed multiculturalism to even work there. Heck, Singapore only exists as a city state because they found it impossible to coexist with the muslim majority country. You should read up some history on the founding of that very young country. I'm nowhere near interested enough to try to look up things about a boring country like Canada but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't end all that well for it if I were to. Because so far, every single time I've seen leftist multuculturalism defenders talk about countries I do know something about, it has been a really good joke.
• Frogolocalypse 9y ago
  I used to do this in Australia many years back when I was six and seven. It never even occurred to anyone that it was an issue.
  • jpatokal 9y ago
    These days, in Queensland, it's illegal for children under 12 to walk to school on their own. (Although, for better or worse, both the letter of the law and its enforcement are unclear.) http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-09/how-long-is-too-long-to-leave-a-child-unattended/8335692 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-09/how-long-is-too-long-t...
    • Frogolocalypse 9y ago
      Yes, I remember when that law was introduced. I vaguely remember that it was in response to a child being murdered after being picked up while waiting for a bus. It's certainly a different world now. But I have a 10-year-old, and he goes to the shops around the corner to buy milk and/or bread. There'd be no way I could trust him to make public transport decisions at this stage though. Maybe a year or two more.
      • Zak 9y ago
        > It's certainly a different world now. What do you see as the relevant differences?
        • seanmcdirmid 9y ago
          My sister said the same thing, but I pointed out that the crime rates are actually lower vs. when we were kids.
          • Zak 9y ago
            And most people don't seem to know it: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/16/voters-perceptions-of-crime-continue-to-conflict-with-reality/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/16/voters-perce...
• jpalomaki 9y ago
  A study from 2015, "Children’s Independent Mobility: An International Comparison" [1] and the actual report [2]. Report covers 16 countries, US was not included. Unfortunately I could not find any summary articles (except in Finnish). The charts summarizing the results seem to start on the report page 14. [1] http://www.psi.org.uk/children_mobility http://www.psi.org.uk/children_mobility [2] http://www.psi.org.uk/docs/7350_PSI_Report_CIM_final.pdf http://www.psi.org.uk/docs/7350_PSI_Report_CIM_final.pdf
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• wimagguc 9y ago
  How children lost the right to roam in four generations - highly related article and previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13547089 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13547089 From the comments there it seems that it's not about (perceived) risks at all, it's more about peer pressure. If no other parents in your group would let their kids go about on their own, you surely won't want to be the only one.
  • eru 9y ago
    See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15945543 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15945543 about the German situation.
• ekianjo 9y ago
  Good, but too bad Japan does not let kids be as free to think for themselves at school a little more. If you limit autonomy to walking to school, it won't bring much benefits in the end.
• PoarNeemn 9y ago
  Only possible in a country without muslims. Must be a great country to live in.
• FabHK 9y ago
  In Germany, we had cycling safety classes in primary school (and you got a badge at the end, yay!), so we could cycle to school (or anywhere else, really). In many countries in Asia, kids with parents can just go to a restaurant (for example) and let the kids roam - everyone else (waiters, other patrons) will take care of the kids collectively.
  • swimfar 9y ago
    We had this in the US as well in elementary school. They had it every year, and I think all kids could participate (grades 1-6). It was a combination of safety instruction and some skills tests (riding in a figure 8, using turn signals properly etc.)
    • FabHK 9y ago
      Oh, cool! So, parents let kids cycle, but not take public transport? Is that it? In Germany, public transport would be considered even somewhat safer than cycling (which has its risks, even with bicycle paths etc.), I'd think.
      • kaybe 9y ago
        Elementary schools are usually within walking distance and not well served by public transport. In this case, biking is nice.
      • Zak 9y ago
        Public transport in most US cities is nearly unusable for the purpose of getting from most homes to most elementary schools. Downtown to the airport is usually viable, but can be a much worse experience than the average European might expect.
    • derda 9y ago
      In Germany (at least in they cities that I have lived in) they have a "Vehrkerskindergarten" (Traffic Kindergarden)[1] in addition to the cycling classes. Basically its a miniature town (streets with traffic signs, traffic lights etc.) where kids go around in pedal cars and bikes. They are run by the Verkehrswacht and the local police. You also get a badge for completing this and the proud picture of your class will be published in the local paper. [1] - http://www.shpol.ch/fileadmin/Redaktoren/Bilder/Verkehrsinstruktion/Verkehrsgarten1.JPG http://www.shpol.ch/fileadmin/Redaktoren/Bilder/Verkehrsinst...
• babayega2 9y ago
  Live in Burundi (Africa) which has been plagued by insecurity since 90s. We used to go by public transport even at age of 10. My little bro and sisters still doing so. I personally think it's related to culture. How the community like to make kids mature earlier. I've also lived in Tanzania where communism had made in the 90s, pupils not pay public transportation. So even little kids were riding buses.
• geff82 9y ago
  Welcome to my world in Germany :)
• solresol 9y ago
  The other day I accidentally left my son at a busy station in Tokyo. He was more annoyed than upset. He just found the right platform to go home and planned to email me when he got back to say where he was. We underestimate children's ability to navigate, which is silly because if they were really bad at it our species would have died out long ago.
  • bamboozled 9y ago
    How do you accidentally leave your son at a train station in Tokyo ?
    • solresol 9y ago
      There were 8 of us because my daughter's old school friend's family was here on holidays. They speak a Chinese dialect that I don't speak well. Anyway it was like herding sheep to get them anywhere. In the rush to get them onboard a train where we taking them back to their hotel from a shopping trip... well... I kinda left my youngest on the platform.
      • nasredin 9y ago
        I know it looks ridiculous but if you are in charge of a gang of kids put them in the brightest eye-burning tee shirts you can find. You won't even have to look at their dirty, disgusting faces, just count them like cattle. In a large city like NYC, neon-green would stands out very nicely.
        • Piskvorrr 9y ago
          Sounds foolproof, right? Well, let me introduce you to my town, where each of the tourist groups had this very same bright (sorry) idea. As the textile is mass-produced and apparently highly standardized, this results in streets being awash in ~8 hues of nigh-identical neon t-shirts (yellow, green, orange x2 each, red, blue). Now, which one, out of the sea of identical SCREAMING colors was yours? Yup, Red Queen Principle - back to square 1.
      • 9y ago
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• Ice_cream_suit 9y ago
  "What accounts for this unusual degree of independence? Not self-sufficiency, in fact, but “group reliance,” according to Dwayne Dixon, a cultural anthropologist who wrote his doctoral dissertation on Japanese youth. “[Japanese] kids learn early on that, ideally, any member of the community can be called on to serve or help others,” he says."
  • wklauss 9y ago
    Probably the same pretty much anywhere in the world. I have a hard time imagining a kid asking an adult for help and the adult refusing, even if it's a stranger.
    • intopieces 9y ago
      I have a hard time imagining a kid asking an adult for help. "Never talk to strangers," was the takeaway I got from elementary school. "Never tell an adult who you don't know where you live unless they know your codeword your parents shared with you" (in this case, the password was 'skateboard'.)
    • icodemuch 9y ago
      If the kid is too shy to ask for help or has been taught never to talk to strangers, then they would never even attempt to approach a stranger. Seems like that's the main difference: that Japanese children are taught to trust the community they live in.
• lukego 9y ago
  I'm raising kids in Switzerland. Here it will be more-or-less required for them to walk to school (kindergarten) themselves from age 5.
  • intellectronica 9y ago
    Yes, it's completely normal and expected (and indeed charming) to walk around children as they go about their day going to schools and other activities in Zürich. It's a very safe city, of course, but also must be something in the culture. Another thing I noticed is that playgrounds are not "safe" - the kids can climb tall structures, play with animals, etc. Kids are expected to progressively develop the ability to independently take care of themselves and of each other. I have not heard of any catastrophes.
    • InternetOfStuff 9y ago
      > Another thing I noticed is that playgrounds are not "safe" - the kids can climb tall structures, play with animals, etc. Kids are expected to progressively develop the ability to independently take care of themselves My sister talked to a playground designer in Germany once. He explained that they deliberately make the toys slightly dangerous -- if you fell off a structure, you wouldn't need to go to hospital, but it would hurt enough to teach a lesson. They explicitly want to school kids' sense of risk, and at the same time, self-reliance. And offer a sense of achievement if you dare and master, say, a "dangerous" climb.
• jsemrau 9y ago
  In Singapore my kids take the school bus. They could technically take the MRT / Bus by themselves, but I don't trust Singapore's traffic. When I grew up, I walked to school. But German drivers are really well educated (mostly).
• kapad 9y ago
  This is even more common and ubiquitous in India. From reading the article, I would say way more common.
  • kapad 9y ago
    I started using the public buses alone at the age of 5/6. Usually, to go visit my grandparents who lived about 20 minutes away. I started cycling alone at the age of about 8/10. And not short pleasure rides but to actually go from one place to another. School, gymnastics classes etc. etc. And getting groceries (from the corner or kirana store) wasn't even considered "going out alone". Everyone did that as soon as we learnt to properly count money. Mostly even before that, since the kirana stores could be trusted not to give incorrect change and steal from a kid. I'd have a list of items from my parents, hand it over to the storekeeper with the money, and he'd give me the stuff in a bag along with the change. There's another interesting story from when I was 4/5. I wanted a new toy and refused to sleep until my parents agreed to buy it for me the next day. They kept refusing so I threatened my parents that I'd run away from home if they didn't buy it for me. Their response was to simply tell me that I could runaway if I wanted, but I wasn't getting that toy (and remember, I'd been throwing this tantrum past bedtime, sonit was about 10/11 at night). I packed a little bag with some toys and clothes and left home. My parents idea of keeping me safe at this time was to ask my 6/7 year old brother to secretly follow me, which he did, but I had no idea about. Getting back to me, I left my apartment, walked out to the main road, walked for a bit, didn't know where to go, so I caught a bus and went to my grandparents house. They were quite happy to get a surprise visit from me. Though I asked them not to tell my parents I was there (I was 5, but didn't want my parents to think I was an idiot) they called my parents and let them know I would be staying over at their place. The next day I found out my brother had caught a cab and followed the bus, saw I went to my grandparents place and returned home in that same cab. Lastly, in India, every public transport service, offers a half price ticket for children. Even if travelling alone. Also, kids studying in government schools, get a card which allows them to travel from home to school by bus/train for free. It's actually very common to see kids traveling via public transport alone. In trains and buses it's also quite common to offer or see others offering their seats to small kids that can't reach the over head handles while standing.
• Lunatic666 9y ago
  I’m also letting my 10 year old daughter use the MRT in Singapore on her own, but also really only in Singapore, any other country I’d be worried too much. There is MRT staff everywhere who help everyone and after I explained to her that the police helps everyone here, so she asked a patrol when she wanted to try a new route. The streets might be cleaner in Tokyo, but I think the sense of community is similar
  • eru 9y ago
    Singapore is about as clean as Japan from what I can tell. You might like this article about what we do in Germany: https://www.wsj.com/articles/german-kindergarten-campouts-test-helicopter-parents-1451338940 https://www.wsj.com/articles/german-kindergarten-campouts-te...
  • kalleboo 9y ago
    Japan also has something called the "Kids 911 home" (こども110の家) which are signs on police stations, convenience stores, shops, taxis etc that show where children can go for help if they feel threatened
• looperhacks 9y ago
  Living in Germany, I've walked to the kindergarten alone (I think when I was four years old) and after knowing the way to school, I was walking there with my friends and without parents. We spent hours outside without our parents knowing where we are because we knew where we were allowed to go and what we where allowed to do (This didn't mean we listened, though).
  • eru 9y ago
    Yes, Germany is still mostly on the sane side. See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15945543 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15945543
  • gtirloni 9y ago
    Same in Brazil in the 80's. The same parents that were okay with me going to kindergarten by myself and sometimes cooking partial meals alone, now are horrified that such things happened (with their consent). I think it speaks a lot to how much society has changed, their current mindset would not accept the same behavior they themselves had a few decades ago. I remember being stopped by strangers asking "where are you going? School? Ok, watch out when crossing the streets". Nowadays nobody would intervene directly... They would probably call the police and take me into custody. "Practical Wisdom" (Barry Schwartz) is a good book about this.
• mrtree 9y ago
  (((Multiculturalism vs Monoculturalism)))
• ptaipale 9y ago
  I think children, 7 years or even younger, move about on their own almost everywhere in the world, except North America.
• skc 9y ago
  I grew up in Zambia, in the capital city in the 80's and to this day this is still a fairly common thing. No subways of course, but small children will walk to the store or school unaccompanied all the time. I live in South Africa now where it's probably not a great idea. Pretty sad.
• chrischen 9y ago
  In suburbia there are no subways to use, although parents do let their 15 year old kids take their cars and run erands alone.
• DrJohanson 9y ago
  I grew up in France in the late 1980s. Almost all the children went to school alone. How the world changed...
• rsynnott 9y ago
  This used to be far more common in Ireland a few decades ago than it is today, though you certainly still see it. Funnily enough, the crime rate was much higher back then; it’s not a risk thing.
• brndnmtthws 9y ago
  I had a somewhat unique childhood, in that I spent my early years (before the age of about 10) living in many different places around the world. My parents always made me walk or ride a bike to school, although sometimes I would go together with my 2 older sisters (who were only a few years older than me). Specifically, we lived in places like Caracas (Venezuela), Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia), and Africa (Nigeria, Ghana). Eventually my family settled in Canada where I mostly grew up, and I continued to transport myself to/from school every day without an escort. Not only was I never harmed whilst traveling to/from school (except for one time when I fell off my bike while riding to school when I was 6 or 7 years old in Venezuela and I had to get stitches on my knee—I've still got the scar to prove it), but today I live mostly without fear and don't subscribe to most of the BS that fear-driven people do. Depending on how you look at it, I seem to have turned out fine. I also spent most of my childhood playing outside eating dirt, and go figure, I have no allergies or immune problems. American parents today who coddle their children are robbing them of learning and growth experiences they deserve. Experiences which, in my opinion, would help make them better people. More tolerant, more empathetic, more intelligent, and healthier.
  • Waterluvian 9y ago
    I only grew up in Canada but had a similar experience: my parents would tell me to stay in the neighbourhood (about 20 streets winding around hills and parks) and and be home by dark. That was it. I spent entire childhood summers wandering forests with my friends, making forts, going on adventures. That being said, it probably helps when you live somewhere with no significant crime. I dunno if my parents would have allowed that if we didn't move away from Scarborough (Toronto suburb with some crime issues at the time)
    • Zak 9y ago
      > it probably helps when you live somewhere with no significant crime I'm sure that helps put parents at ease, but I think even hardened criminals are very unlikely to randomly attack children. Aside from the fact that most criminals still have some level of humanity, there's not much to gain from it. Other kids are much more likely to mistreat kids than adult criminals, but kids find ways to do that even in relatively supervised situations.
• dmitriid 9y ago
  In Sweden kids are taught how to navigate by public transportation while they are at kindergarten. 7-9-ish might still be considered too young to travel alone (probably because kids are easily distracted), but it's not uncommon for a 9-10 yo to take care of a 6yo and take him home by commuter train. Traveling long distances by commuter train and then switching to bus is not uncommon for kids ages 11 and up.
• twobyfour 9y ago
  It's a change in culture. When I was a kid, it was pretty normal for a 9-year-old to take the public bus to school alone and then the subway to an after-school program. In New York City. In the 1980s (aka the "bad old days"). The level of parental paranoia and of cultural concern has skyrocketed. We're so concerned about actual neglectful parenting and so paranoid about infinitesimally low-probability events that we are afraid to give our children what would once have been considered age-appropriate levels of autonomy and responsibility; and parents who do attempt to are under threat from a safety net originally intended to prevent qualitatively different behaviors.
  • hashkb 9y ago
    In Japan, the culture of safety, trust, and respect is greater than anything we ever had here. You need only take one subway trip through Tokyo to realize this.
    • kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
      Unless you're a woman.
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• mlvljr 9y ago
  Was same back in USSR here -- but we already discussed this.
• artur_makly 9y ago
  and u can eat off the subway floor’s its that clean there
• coldtea 9y ago
  There's a great article on the topic (for USA) by Michael Ventura of Austin Chronicle: A little clause set between commas in a missive from a reader about a recent column ["Hero vs. Superhero," July 25] -- in that piece I wondered about the effect of today's movie superheroes on little children as opposed to what children saw, say, in John Ford's 1956 The Searchers. The reader was intelligently critical of the piece, but in that clause he doubted that many 7-year-olds ever went to movies like The Searchers. A natural mistake -- he was clearly too young to remember, and how else would he know? But, for me, his error brought back a lost world. In today's America, where parents chauffeur kids to "play dates," only on the poorest streets do 7-year-olds still roam free ... but they don't go to movies much because tickets are so pricey ... the concession stand is even more expensive ... and you can't just walk into any movie (it might not be rated for kids) ... and you have to know the exact time a film starts ... and shopping-mall movie theatres are rarely within walking distance. Today you're blitzed by TV ad campaigns and product tie-ins in fast-food joints, so you know all about a Hollywood film before it starts ... and today's urban parents panic if their grade-school children disappear, unaccounted for, for hours on end. Fifty years ago, none of that was so. In the larger cities, two or three movie theatres were in walking distance of most neighborhoods. Each had but one screen. The program began with a newsreel, a few cartoons, and brief "coming attractions" (not today's compilations that tell the whole story). Then the "features" began -- plural, features, for all neighborhood theatres played double, sometimes triple, features, two or three movies for the price of one ticket. Nothing was rated, there were no sex scenes or obscenities; anyone could go to any movie. Admission price for a kid was rarely more than a quarter. Popcorn for a dime, a Coke for a nickel. They weren't supposed to sell kids tickets during school hours, but they did. As for kids roaming about -- "Go play in traffic," our parents would say, and they wouldn't be surprised if we didn't walk in 'til dinnertime, which in our immigrant neighborhood wasn't until after 7. ("Go play in traffic" wasn't so harsh a phrase as it sounds. Where else could we play?) And you didn't go to a movie, you went to "the movies." You rarely knew the title of the film you were going to see until you saw the marquee -- and even then you might not recognize the title. Big productions were advertised on billboards, but there weren't so many billboards. No ads on the sides of buses, and none in supermarkets (and there weren't that many supermarkets). Second features were never advertised. TV ads for movies? Very rare in the early Fifties, and not so common by the end of the decade. Except for Davy Crockett's "coonskin" hats (and that was for television), massive product tie-ins were decades away. So adults and kids alike went to the movies, to see whatever was playing -- especially during the hot months, because in those days the big pull was to go to "an air-conditioned movie," as the phrase went. Into the early Sixties, movie theatres were among the only air-conditioned public buildings, and nothing was more rare for working-class people (on the East Coast anyway) than an air-conditioned residence. (I didn't live in one until I was 29.) And there was this, a fact that can't be overestimated: Almost all movies (with Disney the major exception) were made for adults. Kids went to the movies, but few movies were calibrated for kids. Yet no ticket-seller I ever encountered thought it strange for a 7-year-old alone, or a group of three or four, to show up. I went every time I could scrounge the change, and I don't remember ever being turned away. My birthday is late in October, so I was still 7 in 1953 when I saw my first film without "parental guidance" -- or parental presence. Frankly, it kind of shocks me to write that, for I can't imagine the parents of 7-year-olds today allowing their children to go to the movies alone. In fact, I doubt a lone 7-year-old would be sold a ticket now anywhere in this country. But once upon a time, it was no big deal. (All of which makes urban parents of 50 years ago sound permissive. They weren't. We would never have dreamed of speaking to our parents, or to any adult, as I now hear so many minutely supervised kids speak to theirs. Disrespect was not tolerated. Neither was whining. I know that sounds like an exaggeration. It's not.) So, at the age of 7, three or four other urchins and I saw Vincent Price in House of Wax -- in 3-D, no less. It was deliciously scary in a harmless sort of way. But that same year I felt true horror at seeing (alone) The Robe; the Jesus I prayed to -- I watched him be crucified, watched the nails entering his hands, and it was among the more shattering experiences of my little life. And then, a different kind of shattering, that same year: The War of the Worlds -- the scene where the crazed mob throws the scientists out of their truck, destroys their work, and so (seemingly) ends all hope that mankind might survive the martian invasion. When later I became an obsessive reader of history, I had occasion to think of that scene many times. In the spring of the next year, when I was 8, my 6-year-old cousin Tony and I "went to the movies," and what was playing was what I now know to be one of the rarest films by a major director and major star: William Wellman's The High and the Mighty, my first John Wayne film. Tony and I sat through it twice -- that is, we sat through The High and the Mighty, a second feature that I've forgotten, and The High and the Mighty again. For in those days once you bought a ticket you could sit there till the theatre closed. Also, since you just "went," you almost always walked in the middle of whatever picture it was, stayed through the second feature, and watched the first feature until the scene you walked in on. That's the origin of the saying, "This is where I came in" -- people would often leave at that point, with those words on their lips. Not me. I always stayed 'til the end, even if I didn't like the picture. I was (and am) stubborn that way. The High and the Mighty was about a haunted, limping co-pilot (John Wayne) who'd survived the crash that killed his wife and child. He redeems himself by managing to land a (propeller-driven) airliner that otherwise would have been destroyed. Tony and I walked out whistling the haunting theme music. We went back the next day. Which was the first time I ever went to a movie. I can still whistle that theme, but I've never seen that film again -- to my knowledge it has yet to appear on TV, VHS, or DVD. What happened to it? In any case, I kind of fell in love with John Wayne. He was the man my 8-year-old wanted to be. Other movies I saw solo or with buddy-urchins: The Blackboard Jungle, East of Eden, Rebel Without a Cause when I was 9 ... The Searchers when I was 10 ... age 11, I saw Edge of the City (the complex friendship between John Cassavetes and Sidney Poitier turned my young head around about race). Eleven, too, when I saw A Face in the Crowd and The Three Faces of Eve. Face left me absolutely stunned -- so much so that I couldn't stand to see the film again until I was well into my 40s. I know this will sound incredibly naive to a modern ear, but Face taught me that those smiling faces on TV were laughing at me. Baby, that changed me. I stopped believing a lot of things that year -- and stopped calling myself a Catholic. I didn't trust a priestly smile anymore. As for The Three Faces of Eve -- my mother had been in and out of mental hospitals, so Eve taught me more than I wanted to know, earlier than I could absorb it, and to this day I've not been able to watch it again. All of which is to say ... there are good arguments for and against a child seeing such things, though I'm glad I did. Good arguments for and against children roaming dangerously, freely. Yes, disasters happened. You had to learn how to handle men who sat next to you and groped (that was rare, but once was plenty); I'd always grab an aisle seat, and I took to the trick of spilling Coke and popcorn on the seat next to me. But, as W.D. Snodgrass said when asked why he didn't write poems about A-bombs: "I've seen more people killed in their living rooms." It isn't much of an exaggeration to say "the movies," as an entity, raised me. It was like listening in to the conversations of the grownups. Which, we now forget, is how children have been raised for eons. So, reader, yes -- 7-year-olds did see The Searchers, in another world, and in a freer, riskier, more exciting, and inviting country. https://www.austinchronicle.com/columns/2003-08-22/174046/ https://www.austinchronicle.com/columns/2003-08-22/174046/
• the_solenoid 9y ago
  I worry that american culture has gotten so paranoid that kids don't get to roam free any more. I remember growing up in the 80's I could bus/walk all around town and do whatever as long as I got back by night or called. Remember, none of those cheating cell phones!
• cjbenedikt 9y ago
  In Germany too
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• konart 9y ago
  >Kaito, a 12-year-old in Tokyo, has been riding the train by himself between the homes of his parents, who share his custody, since he was nine. Normal thing here in Russia. Why would 9-10 year old need a guardian on his way to school anyways? Same for some shopping.
  • tehlike 9y ago
    Fear. When i grew up this was pretty common, but over time it got less and less frequent.
    • konart 9y ago
      I was growing up during the 90s. In Russia. "I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
• jordache 9y ago
  when I was 9-10, while living in Munich around 1989-1990, I rode the U-bahn (subway) to school with 2 other kids around the same age everyday. Had to do a transfer in between also....
• lagadu 9y ago
  Might as well replace the title with "In <not the US>, small children take the subway and run errands alone (2015)". Children are expected to get to school and to go to whatever by themselves from age 6-7 in pretty much all of Europe.
• rurban 9y ago
  Not only Japan, everywhere. I believe the US is the only country which would be worried of kids go to school by themselves. Sick. But the most trust into their kids I saw amongst Africans.
• m1sta_ 9y ago
  The safety that allows a child to travel alone should be a defining factor of a “first world” region.
• killmanbearpig 9y ago
  What does this have to do with technology? Why is this on Hacker News? While it is an interesting story, I don't come to this site to read stuff like this.
  • DanBC 9y ago
    > While it is an interesting story Hello! https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > What to Submit > On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
  • grzm 9y ago
    From the site guidelines: > ”On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.” https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
• wayanon 9y ago
  Reminds me of the Scandinavian woman prosecuted in 1980s/90s NYC for leaving her child in a pram outside a cafe. In Scandinavia this is (or at least was) extremely common, you get a cluster of prams outside cafes with babies still in them. I was in Berlin last week and was amazed to see bikes being locked to bollards on the street only waist high, so you only had to lift it a foot if you wanted to steal it.
  • prodent 9y ago
    > you only had to lift it a foot if you wanted to steal it. Which is exactly what happens.
• quantumofmalice 9y ago
  This is not surprising: Japan is a high trust, low crime ethnostate.
• horsecaptin 9y ago
  I know a lot of parents in the US who would like for their kids to go out and play, and go places on their own. What prevents them: - Stories of overzealous Child Protection Services agents, child neglect and abuse laws being used to punish parents. - Stories of neighbors, teachers, and other overly concerned people, sometimes with malicious intent calling CPS. - Stories of lawsuits because children trespassed, caused noise in the neighborhood. - Stories of child rapists and serial murderers. When you live in an litigious, social-media and 24-hour news addicted society, some of the side-effects are ugly. Even if a parent wants to raise their children like "when I grew up", it is very difficult not to get either swept up or cut out.
• lerie82 9y ago
  Did you know they still hang people in Japan? Anyway, America has more freedoms and also more crime. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Japan/United-States/Crime http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Japan/Unite... Not sure why this is newsworthy, seems like they are just trying to stir the pot up.
• christmasity 9y ago
  Is this news worthy? This is also the case in NYC and probably every city around the world. Kids take the subway, bus, etc all by themselves to go to school, malls, theaters, friends' homes, etc. My siblings and I did. All my friends did.
• mnm1 9y ago
  I did this too at those ages in Eastern Europe and even in the US. This is hardly unique at all. It's hardly newsworthy. Keeping kids locked up at home under supervision until they become adults is a neuroticism seemingly unique to American (and possibly Canadian) culture. I wonder if parents really think through the consequences of their actions in these cases. Do they weigh the high likelihood of their children suffering and not developing into adults properly because of the parents' actions against the tiny chance they might be harmed if they were allowed on their own? Clearly, as a society, we have adopted the paranoid, scared point of view, a point of view that has defined culture in the US for the last two decades. It makes sense that the culture would appeal to the lowest common denominator, the most paranoid of the paranoid. Unfortunately, these people have codified their paranoid delusional culture into laws that now affect everyone else. I simply cannot see myself raising children in the US. Just like my parents gave up everything to bring me here, I will give up everything to bring them to a society that respects them, where they have the opportunity to grow into adults without them or me getting arrested for being independent human beings. The way we treat children in the US at the moment is sick, disgusting, and simply unacceptable to me. Children are human beings too.