22 ms·

Statistics, we have a problem

295 points by stablemap 9y ago

dontnotice 9y ago
I'm not totally okay with blackballing brilliant people for touching someone's thigh.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  If he hadn't sent those "innuendo-laced messages" he could have gotten away with it and your post would not be misrepresenting what happened.
- HarryHirsch 9y ago
  I worked with Clawdia Chauchat once, she changed my opinion. Harassment must be dealt with sternly and harshly.
  - calsy 9y ago
    Eye for an eye, no mercy, no forgiveness.
    - alexasmyths 9y ago
      "Eye for an eye" - so she can 'touch his thigh' back? All of this requires a lot of context.
- treebog 9y ago
  I'm not okay with letting brilliant people be harassed. Even from a purely cost/benefit standpoint, allowing a toxic environment will drive out more talent than we'd lose by eliminating the harassers.
  - RyanZAG 9y ago
    Agreed, but at the same time I think this matter shouldn't be broadcast publicly until the investigation finishes. If he did do what he said, then the investigation should confirm it, and then he should get blackballed for harassment because it's not ok. But first step should be proving it, not blackballing someone because of allegations. I think we can all agree that removing someone who harassed is a good thing, while removing someone who is only alleged to have harassed is a bad thing. And that distinction probably needs to be made by someone qualified, not an activist or the general public.
    - muglug 9y ago
      > Agreed, but at the same time I think this matter shouldn't be broadcast publicly until the investigation finishes. As we've seen over and over, very often there's no investigation unless the matter is broadcast publicly. So much easier to sweep things under the rug.
      - RyanZAG 9y ago
        Good point. Still, maybe we should publicize that allegations have occurred without specifying against who? And making it public if an organisation refuses to investigate. That should give the same public result without the need to attack someone who is only alleged.
- discoursism 9y ago
  > I'm not totally okay with blackballing brilliant people for touching someone's thigh. Are you saying you'd be fine with it if they weren't brilliant? Or that touching the thigh of a junior in your organization, who you are also hitting on in texts, should just be OK in general, for both brilliant and non-brilliant managers? I mean either way I think you were born a few decades too late, but for clarity's sake, I'm curious what you're getting at.
- sho_hn 9y ago
  Did we read the same article? More than touching her thigh, the accusation described a prolonged unreciprocated infatuation with her. That would surely make me uncomfortable in my workplace.
  - mgraczyk 9y ago
    The second set of allegations you're referring to were directed at Carlin, not Scott. Two different accused individuals.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- coliveira 9y ago
  Because it was not your thigh.
- projektir 9y ago
  This is a complex issue but why is them being brilliant relevant here at all?
- dang 9y ago
  There was a lot more and a lot worse than that, as you'll see if you read the post that's now pointed to above. See my top comment for explanation of the change.
- hjjiehebebe 9y ago
  There is an abusive and potentially criminal pattern of behavior spanning years.
swagv1 9y ago
Didn't see that coming
mc32 9y ago
It's easy for companies to fire people at the lower levels or even top management who are for the most part replaceable. The question will become more difficult when people who are essential to the success of a company or product become entangled in allegations (and perhaps eventual convictions). But let's forget the high bar of convictions, for a moment. If we soon begin to embroil anyone and everyone who may have said something inappropriate or who had someone interpret something as inappropriate, we'll end up including people who are _essential_ to a company or companies. When that time comes, I think companies and society will have to reach a consensus on how to deal with borderline cases (things uncouth but not illegal). Will society ostracize and black ball all cases, or pursue ways to rehabilitate people --like they rehabilitate drunk drivers, etc. Else, a less discerning competitor could scoop up problematic talent.
- HarryHirsch 9y ago
  Policy has a way of shaping character. When people get away with a lot, they think it's OK, because experience shows that it is.
  - gozur88 9y ago
    There's a limit to the extent to which HR can control basic human urges. This kind of stuff is going to happen no matter what the rules are.
    - deeponey 9y ago
      Look at the diversity, globally, of behaviors supported by an equally diverse set of culturally formed ethos. It's about dropping orders of magnitude off the frequency of these situations.
      - gozur88 9y ago
        There's a lot of assumptions baked into that cake. The most obvious being what's considered acceptable behavior in a man by his female colleagues. There are a lot of countries where this kind of thing is considered part of the job by women.
aceon48 9y ago
This is getting crazy. Guilty until proven innocent. Seems overly sensitive to me.... there's a huge different between rape / assault and crude jokes or attempted flirting. Maybe I just don't understand the other perspective enough.
- 1024core 9y ago
  Nobody does anything until there's corroborating evidence. Read the entire article; other people came forward and confirmed that "S" had harassed them or someone they knew.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  Isn't the other perspective having a stranger touch your thigh and send you unwanted messages during and after a professional conference? Is that flirting or a joke? Would you want that? He's not guilty by law, he's been accused, and it's very possible there is enough evidence behind the accusations to make it warranted. Most people don't want to go out of their way to pretend to be the victim (not great word, but nothing more appropriate) of sexual harassment or assault.
  - aceon48 9y ago
    Maybe if there's some compelling evidence or something. But one person's word shouldn't be enough to end someone's career at a company, especially if it's not even at the office. To me, it seems to be "harassment" if the female isn't interested, but that can be a very fine line between the natural relationship between men and women that almost always requires the man to make an advancement and put himself out there.
    - meowface 9y ago
      But his career didn't end. They suspended him pending the results of the investigation. If the investigation turns up nothing, they would presumably reinstate him.
      - 9y ago
sho_hn 9y ago
It's interesting how the tenor of comments suddenly becomes "wait a moment" when it's hitting our own industry.
- 4684499 9y ago
  Not really, our industry has been hitting for awhile, Uber for instance. The "wait a moment" is because it's Google this time.
  - discoursism 9y ago
    I wouldn't say so. I've seen a few of these threads in my time on this site. It's very common for the first few responses, and the ones that are up-voted early, to be folks doing what can only be described as concern trolling ("I can't date my coworkers?" "Guilty until proven innocent!" or, as in this thread, "zomg blackballing" for a guy that hasn't even been fired, etc.). Often times folks will even flag these stories off the front page. Later on, cooler, more egalitarian heads seem to prevail, but things are always pretty dirty during the first hour or so one of these stories is on the front page. I can only be thankful that the folks doing the upvoting are not the dominant voice in the direction that we're taking as a society r.e. respect for women in the workplace and elsewhere.
  - zbentley 9y ago
    > The "wait a moment" is because it's Google this time. Er, James Damore, anyone?
- tigershark 9y ago
  I don't really care about the industry in which he is in. I'm just wary of witch hunts started from nothing just to destroy an individual. I'm certain that this is not the case, but how would you react if someone that has a grudge against you would write an accusing unverified comment and your career would be finished because of this?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
microcolonel 9y ago
This is why, jurisdiction providing, you always record everything at work these days. Don't leave it to chance. Whether you need to make an accusation, or you need to defend against one, records clear things up spectacularly fast. P.S. I recognize that California generally requires two-party consent for recording.
- haZard_OS 9y ago
  I have been recording the vast majority of my conversations with people for about a year now. Doing so has saved me not once, not twice, but three times from blatantly false allegations regarding my speech/behavior. I HATE living my life this way...but what choice do I have?
  - freedomben 9y ago
    Do you work in an office or just remotely? If the former, do you carry a recorder with you or how do the logistics work? I'd be interested to know more about your implementation if you don't mind sharing
  - yesenadam 9y ago
    Well, you could not do it, like most people. ..after I wrote that, I remembered I do know something about that. A few years ago, I was arrested and lost my relationship and was made homeless etc when the police believed false allegations about my behaviour, made by my partner's 11-yr old daughter. (Nothing sexual or too terrible, just that I'd done overly threatening things one night, enough to make her feel afraid.) But I still wouldnt record everything. Sometimes in disagreements with my current partner we wish we had recorded the whole argument; that would be very useful.
vowelless 9y ago
I initially laughed at Pence as described in this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/03/30/mike-pence-doesnt-dine-alone-with-other-women-and-were-all-shocked/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/03/30/mi... Now I think he might have been on to something. Is it really common to go swimming at a conference with others attendees of a different sex? Crazy parties with booze et al at a conference like NIPS? What is going on here? Why even have these non-professional outlets, distracting from the professionalism of the conferences themselves?
- rawnlq 9y ago
  I am really worried about this unintended consequence of self-segregation. This is us going backwards. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/upshot/as-sexual-harassment-scandals-spook-men-it-can-backfire-for-women.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/upshot/as-sexual-harassme... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/upshot/members-of-the-opposite-sex-at-work-gender-study.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/upshot/members-of-the-opp...
- discoursism 9y ago
  A lot of conferences occur at hotels, and most hotels do not have gender segregated pools. So if you fancy a dip and you're at a conference, you're likely going to be swimming with colleagues and counterparts of all genders.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- freedomben 9y ago
  I thought Pence was being a bit ridiculous as well, but now seeing what is happening I'm beginning to think there's great wisdom in it.
  - danso 9y ago
    And then we wonder why women feel there's a glass ceiling blocking them from advancing
randyrand 9y ago
when will these stop making news headlines? i look forward to it.
- muglug 9y ago
  When powerful men stop abusing their power?
  - sampo 9y ago
    When powerful people stop abusing their power. A large majority of harassing is probably done by men, but it's not 100% men.
    - krapp 9y ago
      Part of the problem here is the culture of toxic masculinity and the acceptance of harassing behavior by men as being normal, even expected. Even though it's not 100% about men, it still being almost entirely about men and the culture among men which equates sexual aggression with status and power still makes the discussion worth framing in those terms.
      - sampo 9y ago
        > it still being almost entirely about men We cannot know that. It has not been researched, and the victims don't talk about it. There was a time, in Finland, when everyone assumed that domestic violence is "almost entirely about men", research proposals were ridiculed and not funded. When they eventually studied the topic, 20% of the perpetrators turned out to be women, and in aggravated assaults 50%.
- kayoone 9y ago
  so the more women speak out about these issues the more you get annoyed by it ? It's good that people realise these issues are as widespread as they are.
freedomben 9y ago
I'm glad that people are beginning to stand up to this type of behavior. It is completely unacceptable and has no place in our society, let alone the workplace. That said, I do fear we may take it too far. Unwanted touching is never OK, and abusive/hurtful language is not OK either. However, I saw a poll the other day where a significant number of respondents said that asking someone on a date was sexual harassment. There have also been a lot of cases where sex was consensual, but later on one of the parties had regrets, and now it was considered rape (even though it was consensual at the time it was happening). This sort of thing is what happened with Louis C.K. What he did was sick and weird IMHO, but the women actually consented to watching him pet his monkey, but then later after the fact had regret, and what in the moment was fine suddenly became a heinous act. If this is the standard, I think we're all screwed, because we have all undoubtedly "raped" or at least "sexually harassed" somebody.
- hux_ 9y ago
  I just this Americans have too much free time on their hands.
- muglug 9y ago
  > There have also been a lot of cases where sex was consensual, but later on one of the parties had regrets, and now it was considered rape Sure, "a lot". But it is a very small percentage of all rape reports (obviously not counting the millions of rapes that are never reported). > This sort of thing is what happened with Louis C.K No it's not. Not in the least. > the women actually consented to watching him pet his monkey No they did not.
  - freedomben 9y ago
    > Sure, "a lot". But it is a very small percentage of all rape reports (obviously not counting the millions of rapes that are never reported). Fair enough, "a lot" is most likely not accurate. It's probably a small percentage of all rape reports. > No it's not. Not in the least. > No they did not. Yes, they did. His mea culpa was essentially a statement that he believed that his asking for and receiving consent wasn't valid because he didn't realize that the women's respect and admiration for him would cause them to feel pressured to consent. I don't fully disagree with his analysis there, but if the standard is that anybody who has respect for you cannot consent, we are in some trouble.
golemiprague 9y ago
I am trying not to hire any professional women who are not married and old. There is no point to do that, men can do those jobs better than women as proven for years in the most successful industry of the last 30 years, the tech industry. I don't mind hiring young good looking women for secretarial jobs though, those women don't have a chip on their soldier and are quiet happy with a bit of flirting from the well payed men in the company. The older women are more mature and confident, they can play with the men in the company like toys and are happy for any attention. All together it works perfectly for everyone, I just hope that as the company grows we will get more pressure to employ more women in the engineering side of things, but I am going to stall it as much as I can.
imh 9y ago
For everyone who seems to be skeptical of this article or skeptical of overreaction, it's just a shitty article. Read the blog post it's reporting on. It's much more damning than 'he made off color jokes' or 'he flirted awkwardly' or anything like that: https://medium.com/@kristianlum/statistics-we-have-a-problem-304638dc5de5 https://medium.com/@kristianlum/statistics-we-have-a-problem...
- ColinWright 9y ago
  This is an example of the "doesn't make sense" referred to by dang above[0] - the original pointed to the "shitty article" and now it points to the recommended blog post. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15938382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15938382
  - noobermin 9y ago
    Hate to go further meta, but a number of the comments that "don't make sense" were made after the switch, and it's bothersome that these are still their takeaways.
- mcguire 9y ago
  On the other hand, the blog post doesn't name any names. Describing "S"'s behavior is one thing, describing the behavior of a Senior Researcher at Google is another.
  - dang 9y ago
    Right, the Bloomberg article does add additional info, so people should probably read both articles.
sytelus 9y ago
This doesn't seem to be minor one time thing... Right before I ever attended my first conference, one of the women who was a year ahead of me in my program pulled me aside to warn about him. She told me to do my best to avoid him at the conference but “every woman has a story about him, so it’s only a matter of time.” Of course, she was right. Months before my defense, while at a poster session to present my dissertation work, he touched me on the leg and told me that my dress was “way too sexy for a poster session.” I remember feeling deflated. In the years since, he’s sent me several inappropriate private Facebook messages. In the first, he responded to a Facebook post I had made asking for people’s experiences with Lasik eye surgery with a message that some activities would become much better. Trying to deflect what I thought was going to be an awkward interaction, I responded that I was looking forward to better bird watching. He followed up with a private message that “the activity [he was] thinking about was sex, but bird watching would be better too ;)”. I ignored him. On another occasion, I posted about some data visualizations using data from a medical journal that involved the relationship between age and pubic hair. He sent me a private message explaining how the data is corroborated by his own experiences watching a certain genre of porn. What his personal preferences regarding porn are is something I definitely did not want to know. Perhaps I shouldn’t have posted about the data given the racy topic, but I thought it was in-bounds since it was a comment on data in a medical journal. I guess I was wrong. I responded but tried to end the conversation quickly. On another occasion, he sent me a private message out of the blue to let me know that there was another researcher with a name very similar to my own who published an article that “is even about sex, broadly defined (fecundity). You guys related?” ...and it goes on.
- mirimir 9y ago
  >... he touched me on the leg and told me that my dress was “way too sexy for a poster session.” This seems to have been their first interaction. Touching her was plainly a dumb-ass move. Plus his consistent deafness to her repeated "I'm not interested" feedback. But his comment about professional dress could have been made far more constructively. When I encounter provocatively-dressed women in professional contexts, I'm immediately suspicious. Are they stylishly clueless? Are they trying to manipulate others? Are they making a point about women being free to dress as they like? I mean, I invite you to log about outfits worn by your male and female professional colleagues. Assess overall tightness, especially legs, butt and breasts. Estimate percentage of bare skin, especially cleavage. For example, you may see women in tight sleavless tshirts aka wifebeaters, plus short skirts. How many men will be wearing tight wifebeaters with short pants and sandals? Not many, I bet.
dang 9y ago
We changed the URL from https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-16/google-researcher-accused-of-sexual-harassment-roiling-ai-field https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-16/google-re.... Some of the comments below make less sense as a result, which is bad. But the blog post is well-written, substantive, and brings considerable clarity as the original source—which is what the site guidelines ask for. People should probably read both articles since the Bloomberg one adds follow-up info. While I have you: if you're commenting here, please keep this guideline in mind too: Comments should get more civil and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
catnaroek 9y ago
If there was any harassment on online media, the right course of action is to screenshot everything the mofo says and only then publicly shame them with evidence.
hetspookjee 9y ago
It's as if his great work contribution warrant some kind of free pass for abhorrent and unacceptable behaviour.
jstewartmobile 9y ago
What depresses me the most about this is that most people, even ones with elite degrees in stats, are not actually free people. If this were a free woman, she would have raised her voice, made a scene, and possibly even delivered a well-deserved slap to professor creepy. Instead, there was "struggling", "humiliation", "embarrassment", etc. She didn't even name names in the Medium post! As to why she is not free, I do not know. Escalation of commitment? Prestige? Financial insecurity? What I do know is that this is a terrible example for the ladies out there. Saving it for a cryptic blog post and waiting for some godless HR department to mete out justice is a shit plan, even if it did work this time. If this were a rougher crowd than a bunch of stats nerds, this could have ended very badly...
jimnotgym 9y ago
I am not an academic and not in this field. I have dealt with harrassment issues in business though. I hear do much nonsense about 'grey areas' and 'men and women would never meet if we followed HR'. I hereby advance my theory that it is rather simpler than that. 'If you are in a position of power over the other party, then you should keep some social distance'. Don't smack their bum, don't message them about their holiday photos on FB. If they come to you tired and emotional, sit them down on the other side of your desk and ask them what is wrong. Tell them you are sorry they feel that way. Talk for hours if you need to...at work. Keep your trousers zipped up. Is it that hard? If your team socialize, then by all means go with them. If you find there is only two of you left, then go home. I think it is very easy for a decent human being to avoid.
- ealexhudson 9y ago
  It's not really even about power: if they're a colleague or your boss, it's inappropriate too. I've never heard of a man being ignorant enough to hit on a female boss, but it wouldn't surprise me. Even if people don't follow the platinum rule, they should surely recognise that there are interactions they would have a problem with. The people happy handing out "hugs" to people they are attracted to are surprisingly unwilling to receive them from people they find unattractive. Everyone should be given social space until a mutual agreement that something else happens. This is especially important if there are significant cultural differences between people.
  - FLUX-YOU 9y ago
    >I've never heard of a man being ignorant enough to hit on a female boss, but it wouldn't surprise me. It's far less common, but it certainly does. You just won't hear about it if they find each other attractive.
- NotOscarWilde 9y ago
  Disclaimer: I am an academic, not in this field. I have never approached any colleague with any intimate or other inappropriate topics. Here are two points I consider interesting: * In academia, the only time when you have no power over anyone else is when you are an undergraduate student. After that, almost everyone can be thought to wield some power over anyone, either directly (professor -> student, full professor -> junior professor, senior/accomplished PhD student -> new PhD student) or indirectly (almost everyone you meet is a potential reviewer of your papers, many professors sit on boards which decide postdoc/faculty positions). I would say that the power is more perceived than real -- having a bad name with one professor outside your university likely does not kill your career -- but I would consider it natural to feel uneasy if such a professor expressed intimate interest in you and you had to turn them down. * I have a feeling that for many people, already a single bit of information -- namely knowledge that an person with some amount of power considers you attractive -- is something that would cause them uneasiness (in academia or otherwise). And this uneasiness would be permanent and is not dependent on how this bit propagates to you; from the most innocent (an invitation for coffee that is turned down, a smile in a professional discussion that never veers off-topic) to the most inappropriate (as described in the original post). If that is true, the only solution I can think of is to make sure no such information is shared among any people in your organization -- I abide by that rule personally, but I can understand people opposing such a dehumanization of the work environment.
imartin2k 9y ago
Two patterns emerge which can be found in many of the stories that one hears about these days. 1. A certain type of man who has developed highly problematic habits in regards to repeated, if not very frequent inappropriate (sexual) harassment, and who essentially has been rewarded for this for a long time. 2. A type of person (mostly women, but as far as my observation goes, this general trait is common regardless of gender) who has failed to speak up and push back, often for many many years - who only now that everyone does it, feels "comfortable" enough to speak up. As a man I am frustrated about group 1) because they are a pain in the ass to women and fuck it up for all other men, and I am frustrated about persons from group 2) who selectively deny their personal ethical/moral responsibility as adults and their ability to use free will ("I was too feared to speak up")- which they of course in all other scenarios would insist in - when it suits them - but still now, that they finally tell their stories, ask for full retribution. Fear of losing a job/allies/opportunities for not having spoken up over long amounts of time is not a valid excuse, in my eyes. It's more a sign of lack of integrity. And lack of integrity seems to be the big problem here anyway, for everyone involved. How many of those misbehaving men could have been stopped from doing what they have done over decades if they'd have received clear, unambiguous feedback on the inappropriateness of their actions, instead of "rewards" for their bad actions? Many of these might be better men today (as long as you don't think they are born that way), and there would not be a need to publicly shame all those men (which will probably come at a cost to society in some form of backlash, making everybody worse off). Julia Galef just did a podcast interview with Timur Kuran about "preference falsification" which touches on this topic . http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/show/rs-198-timur-kuran-on-private-truths-and-public-lies.html http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/show/rs-198-timur-kuran... I know men who have an extremely hard time to speak up when things happen that they disagree with, and I know women who are very good at clearly, ambiguously showing boundaries as soon as someone attempts to overstep them (note: I am writing here about these sexual harassment cases related professional environments, not about physical attempts of rape). So as far as I can tell, the root of this mess is not a gender-related problem, but a general problem of learned social behavior and compulsive conflict aversion.
- galactus 9y ago
  Textbook example of victim blaming.
hal9000xp 9y ago
In the past, there was another extreme in societies when raped woman could be considered guilty for inappropriate seduction of a men. So those victims could be crucified by society and in some cases even sent to prison. There were some important changes in societies which made women in many modern countries much more emancipated. This is no doubt was very positive change for economies (more educated workforce) and live in general (free love versus arranged marriage). In recent decade or two, third wave-feminism took off and ballooned to the point when it became pretty ugly and full of systemic-hate towards males. What I mean by systemic-hate is that under the flag of gender equality, feminists try to explain any disparity between men and women as systemic oppression and discrimination driven by men. So now, we can see overstretched definitions of rape and harassment and absurd claims that 25% of women experienced sexual assault etc (so called "rape culture", a bizzare term on its own). Just making sexual harassment allegations is enough to consider a person guilty. So any woman can forever destroy carrier of any man just by making such allegations. I can easily imagine situation where socially awkward male tries to make awkward flirt with female and, in response, she will easily destroy his career and life. I can imagine that sexual self-esteem of young males could be massively degraded in hostile environment created by third-wave feminists. I'm so glad I lived my 20ties in Russia and not being influenced by this bizarre new leftist culture. As one friend of mine called - horizontal totalitarianism: anyone who question third-wave feminism's dogmas would be crucified/banned and fired for being sexist, supportive of rape (what an absurd!!!!), and against gender equality, considering women as inferior to men etc When I lived in Russia, I romanticized western world based on movies and politics of 80s and 90s. I imagined western world as individualist and free-market paradise free from government's heavy hand. I imagined that people in the west are open minded and I looked at feminism positively. Now, I'm deeply disappointment by what I see...
- iak8god 9y ago
  > In the past, there was another extreme in societies when raped woman could be considered guilty for inappropriate seduction of a men. That still happens in some societies today https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatif_rape_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatif_rape_case > So now, we can see overstretched definitions of rape and harassment and absurd claims that 25% of women experienced sexual assault etc You need to get to know some women.
czep 9y ago
> I felt that this was evidence that, like S, all of the other more senior men who had showed interest in my research must actually have only been trying to sleep with me. This is one of the intangible yet insidious impacts of harrassment that men really need to stop and take notice of. As a man, I've been fortunate enough never to have been put in a situation where I've had to doubt that interest in my work was merely a ploy to get me in bed. Think of the massive impact such a doubt can have on a young scholar, struggling to prove onesself, fighting self doubt and imposter syndrome. Then when senior colleagues pay attention to your work, and you find out that their interest was more salacious than professional, it must be hugely demoralizing. I'm sure this accounts for at least some of the gender disparity in technical fields, how many women simply vacated the field after people would only use their work as a pick-up line? > We need to start holding prominent individuals accountable for how their inappropriate behavior negatively impacts the careers of their junior colleagues. Holding them accountable is not enough, we need to ruin them. Everyone in S's group at Google should submit their resignation, conferences should blacklist him, editors should reject his manuscripts, grant money should be withdrawn, and the entire field should shun him and his kind until the message is clear that science will not tolerate this behavior. I don't care how good of a researcher he is, how much of a "Bayesian expert" he claims to be, I could never read a paper of his or hear him talk without feeling disgust that here's yet another ego-consumed hyper-nerd who exploits his talents to gain power that he can use as leverage to satisfy his lust. Screw you, S, and the Bayesian prior you rode in on.
- bonniemuffin 9y ago
  Everyone in his group should lose their job? That seems like an awful lot of collateral damage.
  - czep 9y ago
    I was suggesting they should voluntarily resign, in the current market they will have no shortage of opportunity. It would send a strong message to Google (and others) that the behavior is not acceptable.
    - 9y ago
grondilu 9y ago
I don't use facebook so I'm wondering : isn't there a way to turn a private message into a public one, so that users think twice before sending an offensive one?
- bonniemuffin 9y ago
  Well, you can screenshot it and share the screenshot, but that doesn't seem to stop people apparently.
- Can_Not 9y ago
  On OSX shift+cmd+4 gives you a box selector that saves what you selected as an image to your desktop, where you can share it back on Facebook as a public image.
nerdponx 9y ago
One night after the conference talks were over, a bunch of conference participants and I went for a swim in the ocean. While I was swimming around, S repeatedly grabbed me under the water, putting his hands on my torso, hips, and thighs. I tried to play it off and swim away. He picked me up and pulled me into his chest. He then started to carry me away from the rest of the group, presumably to have some sort of private moment with me that I had absolutely no interest in sharing with him. I struggled, gently at first and then more forcefully, and he let me go. How is this not outright assault? Why are the police not involved and why is this guy not being charged with anything? Why is anyone concerned about protecting his privacy?
- ajross 9y ago
  Checking the author's twitter, it looks like the guy has been named at this point. And it's not assault because it's not. He was playing in the pool, she disengaged successfully. If you push someone in expectation of a bar fight and they walk away, the police likewise aren't going to pursue charges. That doesn't excuse it, of course. But there's a limit to the protection we can get from law enforcement. Obviously if it happens repeatedly, this can be harrassment, which is something that can be pursued via civil means.
  - graeme 9y ago
    Have a look at the comment I wrote in reply. It is assault. There are reasons why assault isn't prosecuted, but we should be aware of the nature of the offense. (And, probably sexual assault, but that depends on how it's defined in the jurisdiction. In Canada this would be sexual assault)
    - graeme 9y ago
      Ajross, in case you're reading replies, your comment above has been flagged and is dead. I don't believe it deserved that. I do think what you wrote has a legal mistake, but there's no malice, and it's a fairly common mistake.
      - 9y ago
SubiculumCode 9y ago
Misleading title.
SubiculumCode 9y ago
While men are often perpetrators, and may have predisposition to do so, I believe a large driver of sexual harassment is power relationships. This means men over women, but increasingly,also power relationships involving a female over male subordinates. Sure some male subordinates might receive it gladly, and women often think that offering themselves sexually is doing a male a favor, not all male subordinates will perceive it this way. Anyway, I just wanted to chime in about how central power relationships are to these things, and how they often lead to abuse, and also abnormal behaviors in people with power.
- SubiculumCode 9y ago
  If anyone inferred the above post as not supporting women and then downvoted, that is just not the case. Sexual harrassment is wrong. Full stop.
- crimsonalucard 9y ago
  How can you say men have predisposition to be perpetrators? How come men aren't rallying and getting outraged? What if I said men are predisposed to be better at science and technical careers? Men are predisposed to being better leaders? By using the word predisposition on sex, are you implying that men and women aren't equal?
  - SubiculumCode 9y ago
    I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not. Across many species, males exhibit forceful sex behaviors. Those behaviors increased fitness.
    - crimsonalucard 9y ago
      Science can be immoral at times. When science and morality are at odds, the right thing to do is to make the moral choice. One just needs to look at the holocaust to see the perils of placing science first. What you state is a true scientific fact. However, it is immoral because it implies that men and women aren't equal. Thus because it is immoral, the fact cannot be true. Women are equal to men in both intelligence, aggression, height, size, strength, ability and penis length. To imply otherwise is to be sexist.
fullshark 9y ago
I expected this to be the millionth blogpost about p-values. It's pretty clear that any organization is gonna have some powerful men (people?) in it who sexually harassed people. I don't think any industry is free from it, though some industries may more conducive to it (hollywood and academia for example are industries with cults of personality, and a lot of people desperate to be involved in it).
crimsonalucard 9y ago
What about the instances when men are harassed by women? It must happen to men in equal amounts because for this not to happen would mean that men and women are unequal which is sexist and wrong.
a_puppy 9y ago
On the one hand, the behavior she describes is unambiguously sexual harassment, and no well-meaning person would behave like "S" did by accident. On the other hand, I still remember Donglegate, so this trend towards more men being accused of sexual harassment makes me nervous.
crimsonalucard 9y ago
Nothing is wrong with statistics. This is just a sexual harasser. Why frame it as a new social issue in statistics when this is a very well known general problem in society?
YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
>> Since then, I have heard one professor who witnessed the incident openly lament that he’ll have to find a way to delicately advise his female students on “how not to get raped by S” so as not to lose promising students. I mean, that's a start, but maybe the most general solution in this case is to make sure S doesn't actually try to rape anyone?
robot197 9y ago
Given all the events happening in society regarding sexual assault, I think I need to point out something. These men who abuse their positions are repugnant creatures.They are worthless animals incapable of controlling their instincts. Grown ass men, who haven't yet learned to control their mind. Somehow they achieved success without any significant strengthening of their mind. Pathetic. But I don't think this portrayal of all women as innocent angels who these evil men are out to abuse isn't right. There are pathetic men, just as there are pathetic women. It might not be the case here, but women use these powerful men, give them sexual favors, so that they can accumulate power for themselves. In the case of Weinstein, so many famous actress, kept quiet and let him do what he wanted, simply for the pursuit of fame, money etc, and now when it became safe to accuse him, after they acquired their fame, they did. Of-course, these creeps are repugnant, but the women who keep quiet, use them and enable their behavior are pretty immoral too. So kudos to this women for speaking out. Some posters where saying, that any scientific progress he makes should be ignored, that is pretty stupid. I think the women should name him, so that their will be atleast a social cost for him, if not legal.
ashwinpp 9y ago
I think there are two orthogonal issues in the discussion which I would like to untangle. Some of the proposed solutions have been about maintaining a "social distance" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15939009 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15939009) to "reduce the odds" of sexual attraction [Pencesque] (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15940041 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15940041) and consequently sexual harassment at the workplace. Another comment asked about whether pool parties at a conference make sense (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15937938 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15937938) The orthogonal issues are 1) Non-consensual unwanted advances 2) Curbing avenues for sexual attraction I call them orthogonal because, - A person with enough avenues for sexual attraction at workplace or otherwise and choose not to do anything non-consentual and to recognize the people he/she feels attracted towards as equal humans even if they are his/her superiors or juniors. - A person with few avenues for sexual attraction can choose to be non-consentual and delegitimize the humanity of his/her victims despite the lack of abundance of opportunity. Mixing up these issues ends up confusing infidelity and sexual harassment. A person who seeks and engages in consensual sex outside his/her marriage is guilty of infidelity but not guilty of sexual harassment. A person who makes unwanted advances towards a married partner is guilty of sexual harassment irrespective of the fact that the victim is a married partner. Note that I would categorize anything that makes the other person uncomfortable as an unwanted sexual advance. If a person talks about his/her pornography fetishes, but the other isn't interested, it is unwanted. If a person grabs the other other by the waist, while the other does not like it and tries to wriggle free, it is unwanted. If a person asks a subordinate for drinks and the subordinate is unwilling but pressured into accompanying, it is unwanted. Being unwanted is a clear signal for a person to not engage in a certain activity in the future and the victim should not be expected to create a ruckus in order to reject unwanted advances.

295 points by stablemap 9y ago

dontnotice 9y ago

I'm not totally okay with blackballing brilliant people for touching someone's thigh.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
aaron-lebo 9y ago
If he hadn't sent those "innuendo-laced messages" he could have gotten away with it and your post would not be misrepresenting what happened.
HarryHirsch 9y ago
I worked with Clawdia Chauchat once, she changed my opinion. Harassment must be dealt with sternly and harshly.
- calsy 9y ago
  Eye for an eye, no mercy, no forgiveness.
  - alexasmyths 9y ago
    "Eye for an eye" - so she can 'touch his thigh' back? All of this requires a lot of context.
treebog 9y ago
I'm not okay with letting brilliant people be harassed. Even from a purely cost/benefit standpoint, allowing a toxic environment will drive out more talent than we'd lose by eliminating the harassers.
- RyanZAG 9y ago
  Agreed, but at the same time I think this matter shouldn't be broadcast publicly until the investigation finishes. If he did do what he said, then the investigation should confirm it, and then he should get blackballed for harassment because it's not ok. But first step should be proving it, not blackballing someone because of allegations. I think we can all agree that removing someone who harassed is a good thing, while removing someone who is only alleged to have harassed is a bad thing. And that distinction probably needs to be made by someone qualified, not an activist or the general public.
  - muglug 9y ago
    > Agreed, but at the same time I think this matter shouldn't be broadcast publicly until the investigation finishes. As we've seen over and over, very often there's no investigation unless the matter is broadcast publicly. So much easier to sweep things under the rug.
    - RyanZAG 9y ago
      Good point. Still, maybe we should publicize that allegations have occurred without specifying against who? And making it public if an organisation refuses to investigate. That should give the same public result without the need to attack someone who is only alleged.
discoursism 9y ago
> I'm not totally okay with blackballing brilliant people for touching someone's thigh. Are you saying you'd be fine with it if they weren't brilliant? Or that touching the thigh of a junior in your organization, who you are also hitting on in texts, should just be OK in general, for both brilliant and non-brilliant managers? I mean either way I think you were born a few decades too late, but for clarity's sake, I'm curious what you're getting at.
sho_hn 9y ago
Did we read the same article? More than touching her thigh, the accusation described a prolonged unreciprocated infatuation with her. That would surely make me uncomfortable in my workplace.
- mgraczyk 9y ago
  The second set of allegations you're referring to were directed at Carlin, not Scott. Two different accused individuals.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
coliveira 9y ago
Because it was not your thigh.
projektir 9y ago
This is a complex issue but why is them being brilliant relevant here at all?
dang 9y ago
There was a lot more and a lot worse than that, as you'll see if you read the post that's now pointed to above. See my top comment for explanation of the change.
hjjiehebebe 9y ago
There is an abusive and potentially criminal pattern of behavior spanning years.

swagv1 9y ago

Didn't see that coming

mc32 9y ago

It's easy for companies to fire people at the lower levels or even top management who are for the most part replaceable. The question will become more difficult when people who are essential to the success of a company or product become entangled in allegations (and perhaps eventual convictions). But let's forget the high bar of convictions, for a moment. If we soon begin to embroil anyone and everyone who may have said something inappropriate or who had someone interpret something as inappropriate, we'll end up including people who are _essential_ to a company or companies. When that time comes, I think companies and society will have to reach a consensus on how to deal with borderline cases (things uncouth but not illegal). Will society ostracize and black ball all cases, or pursue ways to rehabilitate people --like they rehabilitate drunk drivers, etc. Else, a less discerning competitor could scoop up problematic talent.

HarryHirsch 9y ago
Policy has a way of shaping character. When people get away with a lot, they think it's OK, because experience shows that it is.
- gozur88 9y ago
  There's a limit to the extent to which HR can control basic human urges. This kind of stuff is going to happen no matter what the rules are.
  - deeponey 9y ago
    Look at the diversity, globally, of behaviors supported by an equally diverse set of culturally formed ethos. It's about dropping orders of magnitude off the frequency of these situations.
    - gozur88 9y ago
      There's a lot of assumptions baked into that cake. The most obvious being what's considered acceptable behavior in a man by his female colleagues. There are a lot of countries where this kind of thing is considered part of the job by women.

aceon48 9y ago

This is getting crazy. Guilty until proven innocent. Seems overly sensitive to me.... there's a huge different between rape / assault and crude jokes or attempted flirting. Maybe I just don't understand the other perspective enough.

1024core 9y ago
Nobody does anything until there's corroborating evidence. Read the entire article; other people came forward and confirmed that "S" had harassed them or someone they knew.
aaron-lebo 9y ago
Isn't the other perspective having a stranger touch your thigh and send you unwanted messages during and after a professional conference? Is that flirting or a joke? Would you want that? He's not guilty by law, he's been accused, and it's very possible there is enough evidence behind the accusations to make it warranted. Most people don't want to go out of their way to pretend to be the victim (not great word, but nothing more appropriate) of sexual harassment or assault.
- aceon48 9y ago
  Maybe if there's some compelling evidence or something. But one person's word shouldn't be enough to end someone's career at a company, especially if it's not even at the office. To me, it seems to be "harassment" if the female isn't interested, but that can be a very fine line between the natural relationship between men and women that almost always requires the man to make an advancement and put himself out there.
  - meowface 9y ago
    But his career didn't end. They suspended him pending the results of the investigation. If the investigation turns up nothing, they would presumably reinstate him.
    - 9y ago

sho_hn 9y ago

It's interesting how the tenor of comments suddenly becomes "wait a moment" when it's hitting our own industry.

4684499 9y ago
Not really, our industry has been hitting for awhile, Uber for instance. The "wait a moment" is because it's Google this time.
- discoursism 9y ago
  I wouldn't say so. I've seen a few of these threads in my time on this site. It's very common for the first few responses, and the ones that are up-voted early, to be folks doing what can only be described as concern trolling ("I can't date my coworkers?" "Guilty until proven innocent!" or, as in this thread, "zomg blackballing" for a guy that hasn't even been fired, etc.). Often times folks will even flag these stories off the front page. Later on, cooler, more egalitarian heads seem to prevail, but things are always pretty dirty during the first hour or so one of these stories is on the front page. I can only be thankful that the folks doing the upvoting are not the dominant voice in the direction that we're taking as a society r.e. respect for women in the workplace and elsewhere.
- zbentley 9y ago
  > The "wait a moment" is because it's Google this time. Er, James Damore, anyone?
tigershark 9y ago
I don't really care about the industry in which he is in. I'm just wary of witch hunts started from nothing just to destroy an individual. I'm certain that this is not the case, but how would you react if someone that has a grudge against you would write an accusing unverified comment and your career would be finished because of this?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

microcolonel 9y ago

This is why, jurisdiction providing, you always record everything at work these days. Don't leave it to chance. Whether you need to make an accusation, or you need to defend against one, records clear things up spectacularly fast. P.S. I recognize that California generally requires two-party consent for recording.

haZard_OS 9y ago
I have been recording the vast majority of my conversations with people for about a year now. Doing so has saved me not once, not twice, but three times from blatantly false allegations regarding my speech/behavior. I HATE living my life this way...but what choice do I have?
- freedomben 9y ago
  Do you work in an office or just remotely? If the former, do you carry a recorder with you or how do the logistics work? I'd be interested to know more about your implementation if you don't mind sharing
- yesenadam 9y ago
  Well, you could not do it, like most people. ..after I wrote that, I remembered I do know something about that. A few years ago, I was arrested and lost my relationship and was made homeless etc when the police believed false allegations about my behaviour, made by my partner's 11-yr old daughter. (Nothing sexual or too terrible, just that I'd done overly threatening things one night, enough to make her feel afraid.) But I still wouldnt record everything. Sometimes in disagreements with my current partner we wish we had recorded the whole argument; that would be very useful.

vowelless 9y ago

I initially laughed at Pence as described in this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/03/30/mike-pence-doesnt-dine-alone-with-other-women-and-were-all-shocked/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/03/30/mi... Now I think he might have been on to something. Is it really common to go swimming at a conference with others attendees of a different sex? Crazy parties with booze et al at a conference like NIPS? What is going on here? Why even have these non-professional outlets, distracting from the professionalism of the conferences themselves?

rawnlq 9y ago
I am really worried about this unintended consequence of self-segregation. This is us going backwards. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/upshot/as-sexual-harassment-scandals-spook-men-it-can-backfire-for-women.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/09/upshot/as-sexual-harassme... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/upshot/members-of-the-opposite-sex-at-work-gender-study.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/upshot/members-of-the-opp...
discoursism 9y ago
A lot of conferences occur at hotels, and most hotels do not have gender segregated pools. So if you fancy a dip and you're at a conference, you're likely going to be swimming with colleagues and counterparts of all genders.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
freedomben 9y ago
I thought Pence was being a bit ridiculous as well, but now seeing what is happening I'm beginning to think there's great wisdom in it.
- danso 9y ago
  And then we wonder why women feel there's a glass ceiling blocking them from advancing

randyrand 9y ago

when will these stop making news headlines? i look forward to it.

muglug 9y ago
When powerful men stop abusing their power?
- sampo 9y ago
  When powerful people stop abusing their power. A large majority of harassing is probably done by men, but it's not 100% men.
  - krapp 9y ago
    Part of the problem here is the culture of toxic masculinity and the acceptance of harassing behavior by men as being normal, even expected. Even though it's not 100% about men, it still being almost entirely about men and the culture among men which equates sexual aggression with status and power still makes the discussion worth framing in those terms.
    - sampo 9y ago
      > it still being almost entirely about men We cannot know that. It has not been researched, and the victims don't talk about it. There was a time, in Finland, when everyone assumed that domestic violence is "almost entirely about men", research proposals were ridiculed and not funded. When they eventually studied the topic, 20% of the perpetrators turned out to be women, and in aggravated assaults 50%.
kayoone 9y ago
so the more women speak out about these issues the more you get annoyed by it ? It's good that people realise these issues are as widespread as they are.

freedomben 9y ago

I'm glad that people are beginning to stand up to this type of behavior. It is completely unacceptable and has no place in our society, let alone the workplace. That said, I do fear we may take it too far. Unwanted touching is never OK, and abusive/hurtful language is not OK either. However, I saw a poll the other day where a significant number of respondents said that asking someone on a date was sexual harassment. There have also been a lot of cases where sex was consensual, but later on one of the parties had regrets, and now it was considered rape (even though it was consensual at the time it was happening). This sort of thing is what happened with Louis C.K. What he did was sick and weird IMHO, but the women actually consented to watching him pet his monkey, but then later after the fact had regret, and what in the moment was fine suddenly became a heinous act. If this is the standard, I think we're all screwed, because we have all undoubtedly "raped" or at least "sexually harassed" somebody.

hux_ 9y ago
I just this Americans have too much free time on their hands.
muglug 9y ago
> There have also been a lot of cases where sex was consensual, but later on one of the parties had regrets, and now it was considered rape Sure, "a lot". But it is a very small percentage of all rape reports (obviously not counting the millions of rapes that are never reported). > This sort of thing is what happened with Louis C.K No it's not. Not in the least. > the women actually consented to watching him pet his monkey No they did not.
- freedomben 9y ago
  > Sure, "a lot". But it is a very small percentage of all rape reports (obviously not counting the millions of rapes that are never reported). Fair enough, "a lot" is most likely not accurate. It's probably a small percentage of all rape reports. > No it's not. Not in the least. > No they did not. Yes, they did. His mea culpa was essentially a statement that he believed that his asking for and receiving consent wasn't valid because he didn't realize that the women's respect and admiration for him would cause them to feel pressured to consent. I don't fully disagree with his analysis there, but if the standard is that anybody who has respect for you cannot consent, we are in some trouble.

golemiprague 9y ago

I am trying not to hire any professional women who are not married and old. There is no point to do that, men can do those jobs better than women as proven for years in the most successful industry of the last 30 years, the tech industry. I don't mind hiring young good looking women for secretarial jobs though, those women don't have a chip on their soldier and are quiet happy with a bit of flirting from the well payed men in the company. The older women are more mature and confident, they can play with the men in the company like toys and are happy for any attention. All together it works perfectly for everyone, I just hope that as the company grows we will get more pressure to employ more women in the engineering side of things, but I am going to stall it as much as I can.

imh 9y ago

For everyone who seems to be skeptical of this article or skeptical of overreaction, it's just a shitty article. Read the blog post it's reporting on. It's much more damning than 'he made off color jokes' or 'he flirted awkwardly' or anything like that: https://medium.com/@kristianlum/statistics-we-have-a-problem-304638dc5de5 https://medium.com/@kristianlum/statistics-we-have-a-problem...

ColinWright 9y ago
This is an example of the "doesn't make sense" referred to by dang above[0] - the original pointed to the "shitty article" and now it points to the recommended blog post. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15938382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15938382
- noobermin 9y ago
  Hate to go further meta, but a number of the comments that "don't make sense" were made after the switch, and it's bothersome that these are still their takeaways.
mcguire 9y ago
On the other hand, the blog post doesn't name any names. Describing "S"'s behavior is one thing, describing the behavior of a Senior Researcher at Google is another.
- dang 9y ago
  Right, the Bloomberg article does add additional info, so people should probably read both articles.

sytelus 9y ago

This doesn't seem to be minor one time thing... Right before I ever attended my first conference, one of the women who was a year ahead of me in my program pulled me aside to warn about him. She told me to do my best to avoid him at the conference but “every woman has a story about him, so it’s only a matter of time.” Of course, she was right. Months before my defense, while at a poster session to present my dissertation work, he touched me on the leg and told me that my dress was “way too sexy for a poster session.” I remember feeling deflated. In the years since, he’s sent me several inappropriate private Facebook messages. In the first, he responded to a Facebook post I had made asking for people’s experiences with Lasik eye surgery with a message that some activities would become much better. Trying to deflect what I thought was going to be an awkward interaction, I responded that I was looking forward to better bird watching. He followed up with a private message that “the activity [he was] thinking about was sex, but bird watching would be better too ;)”. I ignored him. On another occasion, I posted about some data visualizations using data from a medical journal that involved the relationship between age and pubic hair. He sent me a private message explaining how the data is corroborated by his own experiences watching a certain genre of porn. What his personal preferences regarding porn are is something I definitely did not want to know. Perhaps I shouldn’t have posted about the data given the racy topic, but I thought it was in-bounds since it was a comment on data in a medical journal. I guess I was wrong. I responded but tried to end the conversation quickly. On another occasion, he sent me a private message out of the blue to let me know that there was another researcher with a name very similar to my own who published an article that “is even about sex, broadly defined (fecundity). You guys related?” ...and it goes on.

mirimir 9y ago
>... he touched me on the leg and told me that my dress was “way too sexy for a poster session.” This seems to have been their first interaction. Touching her was plainly a dumb-ass move. Plus his consistent deafness to her repeated "I'm not interested" feedback. But his comment about professional dress could have been made far more constructively. When I encounter provocatively-dressed women in professional contexts, I'm immediately suspicious. Are they stylishly clueless? Are they trying to manipulate others? Are they making a point about women being free to dress as they like? I mean, I invite you to log about outfits worn by your male and female professional colleagues. Assess overall tightness, especially legs, butt and breasts. Estimate percentage of bare skin, especially cleavage. For example, you may see women in tight sleavless tshirts aka wifebeaters, plus short skirts. How many men will be wearing tight wifebeaters with short pants and sandals? Not many, I bet.

dang 9y ago

We changed the URL from https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-16/google-researcher-accused-of-sexual-harassment-roiling-ai-field https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-16/google-re.... Some of the comments below make less sense as a result, which is bad. But the blog post is well-written, substantive, and brings considerable clarity as the original source—which is what the site guidelines ask for. People should probably read both articles since the Bloomberg one adds follow-up info. While I have you: if you're commenting here, please keep this guideline in mind too: Comments should get more civil and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

catnaroek 9y ago

If there was any harassment on online media, the right course of action is to screenshot everything the mofo says and only then publicly shame them with evidence.

hetspookjee 9y ago

It's as if his great work contribution warrant some kind of free pass for abhorrent and unacceptable behaviour.

jstewartmobile 9y ago

What depresses me the most about this is that most people, even ones with elite degrees in stats, are not actually free people. If this were a free woman, she would have raised her voice, made a scene, and possibly even delivered a well-deserved slap to professor creepy. Instead, there was "struggling", "humiliation", "embarrassment", etc. She didn't even name names in the Medium post! As to why she is not free, I do not know. Escalation of commitment? Prestige? Financial insecurity? What I do know is that this is a terrible example for the ladies out there. Saving it for a cryptic blog post and waiting for some godless HR department to mete out justice is a shit plan, even if it did work this time. If this were a rougher crowd than a bunch of stats nerds, this could have ended very badly...

jimnotgym 9y ago

I am not an academic and not in this field. I have dealt with harrassment issues in business though. I hear do much nonsense about 'grey areas' and 'men and women would never meet if we followed HR'. I hereby advance my theory that it is rather simpler than that. 'If you are in a position of power over the other party, then you should keep some social distance'. Don't smack their bum, don't message them about their holiday photos on FB. If they come to you tired and emotional, sit them down on the other side of your desk and ask them what is wrong. Tell them you are sorry they feel that way. Talk for hours if you need to...at work. Keep your trousers zipped up. Is it that hard? If your team socialize, then by all means go with them. If you find there is only two of you left, then go home. I think it is very easy for a decent human being to avoid.

ealexhudson 9y ago
It's not really even about power: if they're a colleague or your boss, it's inappropriate too. I've never heard of a man being ignorant enough to hit on a female boss, but it wouldn't surprise me. Even if people don't follow the platinum rule, they should surely recognise that there are interactions they would have a problem with. The people happy handing out "hugs" to people they are attracted to are surprisingly unwilling to receive them from people they find unattractive. Everyone should be given social space until a mutual agreement that something else happens. This is especially important if there are significant cultural differences between people.
- FLUX-YOU 9y ago
  >I've never heard of a man being ignorant enough to hit on a female boss, but it wouldn't surprise me. It's far less common, but it certainly does. You just won't hear about it if they find each other attractive.
NotOscarWilde 9y ago
Disclaimer: I am an academic, not in this field. I have never approached any colleague with any intimate or other inappropriate topics. Here are two points I consider interesting: * In academia, the only time when you have no power over anyone else is when you are an undergraduate student. After that, almost everyone can be thought to wield some power over anyone, either directly (professor -> student, full professor -> junior professor, senior/accomplished PhD student -> new PhD student) or indirectly (almost everyone you meet is a potential reviewer of your papers, many professors sit on boards which decide postdoc/faculty positions). I would say that the power is more perceived than real -- having a bad name with one professor outside your university likely does not kill your career -- but I would consider it natural to feel uneasy if such a professor expressed intimate interest in you and you had to turn them down. * I have a feeling that for many people, already a single bit of information -- namely knowledge that an person with some amount of power considers you attractive -- is something that would cause them uneasiness (in academia or otherwise). And this uneasiness would be permanent and is not dependent on how this bit propagates to you; from the most innocent (an invitation for coffee that is turned down, a smile in a professional discussion that never veers off-topic) to the most inappropriate (as described in the original post). If that is true, the only solution I can think of is to make sure no such information is shared among any people in your organization -- I abide by that rule personally, but I can understand people opposing such a dehumanization of the work environment.

imartin2k 9y ago

Two patterns emerge which can be found in many of the stories that one hears about these days. 1. A certain type of man who has developed highly problematic habits in regards to repeated, if not very frequent inappropriate (sexual) harassment, and who essentially has been rewarded for this for a long time. 2. A type of person (mostly women, but as far as my observation goes, this general trait is common regardless of gender) who has failed to speak up and push back, often for many many years - who only now that everyone does it, feels "comfortable" enough to speak up. As a man I am frustrated about group 1) because they are a pain in the ass to women and fuck it up for all other men, and I am frustrated about persons from group 2) who selectively deny their personal ethical/moral responsibility as adults and their ability to use free will ("I was too feared to speak up")- which they of course in all other scenarios would insist in - when it suits them - but still now, that they finally tell their stories, ask for full retribution. Fear of losing a job/allies/opportunities for not having spoken up over long amounts of time is not a valid excuse, in my eyes. It's more a sign of lack of integrity. And lack of integrity seems to be the big problem here anyway, for everyone involved. How many of those misbehaving men could have been stopped from doing what they have done over decades if they'd have received clear, unambiguous feedback on the inappropriateness of their actions, instead of "rewards" for their bad actions? Many of these might be better men today (as long as you don't think they are born that way), and there would not be a need to publicly shame all those men (which will probably come at a cost to society in some form of backlash, making everybody worse off). Julia Galef just did a podcast interview with Timur Kuran about "preference falsification" which touches on this topic . http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/show/rs-198-timur-kuran-on-private-truths-and-public-lies.html http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/show/rs-198-timur-kuran... I know men who have an extremely hard time to speak up when things happen that they disagree with, and I know women who are very good at clearly, ambiguously showing boundaries as soon as someone attempts to overstep them (note: I am writing here about these sexual harassment cases related professional environments, not about physical attempts of rape). So as far as I can tell, the root of this mess is not a gender-related problem, but a general problem of learned social behavior and compulsive conflict aversion.

galactus 9y ago
Textbook example of victim blaming.

hal9000xp 9y ago

In the past, there was another extreme in societies when raped woman could be considered guilty for inappropriate seduction of a men. So those victims could be crucified by society and in some cases even sent to prison. There were some important changes in societies which made women in many modern countries much more emancipated. This is no doubt was very positive change for economies (more educated workforce) and live in general (free love versus arranged marriage). In recent decade or two, third wave-feminism took off and ballooned to the point when it became pretty ugly and full of systemic-hate towards males. What I mean by systemic-hate is that under the flag of gender equality, feminists try to explain any disparity between men and women as systemic oppression and discrimination driven by men. So now, we can see overstretched definitions of rape and harassment and absurd claims that 25% of women experienced sexual assault etc (so called "rape culture", a bizzare term on its own). Just making sexual harassment allegations is enough to consider a person guilty. So any woman can forever destroy carrier of any man just by making such allegations. I can easily imagine situation where socially awkward male tries to make awkward flirt with female and, in response, she will easily destroy his career and life. I can imagine that sexual self-esteem of young males could be massively degraded in hostile environment created by third-wave feminists. I'm so glad I lived my 20ties in Russia and not being influenced by this bizarre new leftist culture. As one friend of mine called - horizontal totalitarianism: anyone who question third-wave feminism's dogmas would be crucified/banned and fired for being sexist, supportive of rape (what an absurd!!!!), and against gender equality, considering women as inferior to men etc When I lived in Russia, I romanticized western world based on movies and politics of 80s and 90s. I imagined western world as individualist and free-market paradise free from government's heavy hand. I imagined that people in the west are open minded and I looked at feminism positively. Now, I'm deeply disappointment by what I see...

iak8god 9y ago
> In the past, there was another extreme in societies when raped woman could be considered guilty for inappropriate seduction of a men. That still happens in some societies today https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatif_rape_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatif_rape_case > So now, we can see overstretched definitions of rape and harassment and absurd claims that 25% of women experienced sexual assault etc You need to get to know some women.

czep 9y ago

> I felt that this was evidence that, like S, all of the other more senior men who had showed interest in my research must actually have only been trying to sleep with me. This is one of the intangible yet insidious impacts of harrassment that men really need to stop and take notice of. As a man, I've been fortunate enough never to have been put in a situation where I've had to doubt that interest in my work was merely a ploy to get me in bed. Think of the massive impact such a doubt can have on a young scholar, struggling to prove onesself, fighting self doubt and imposter syndrome. Then when senior colleagues pay attention to your work, and you find out that their interest was more salacious than professional, it must be hugely demoralizing. I'm sure this accounts for at least some of the gender disparity in technical fields, how many women simply vacated the field after people would only use their work as a pick-up line? > We need to start holding prominent individuals accountable for how their inappropriate behavior negatively impacts the careers of their junior colleagues. Holding them accountable is not enough, we need to ruin them. Everyone in S's group at Google should submit their resignation, conferences should blacklist him, editors should reject his manuscripts, grant money should be withdrawn, and the entire field should shun him and his kind until the message is clear that science will not tolerate this behavior. I don't care how good of a researcher he is, how much of a "Bayesian expert" he claims to be, I could never read a paper of his or hear him talk without feeling disgust that here's yet another ego-consumed hyper-nerd who exploits his talents to gain power that he can use as leverage to satisfy his lust. Screw you, S, and the Bayesian prior you rode in on.

bonniemuffin 9y ago
Everyone in his group should lose their job? That seems like an awful lot of collateral damage.
- czep 9y ago
  I was suggesting they should voluntarily resign, in the current market they will have no shortage of opportunity. It would send a strong message to Google (and others) that the behavior is not acceptable.
  - 9y ago

grondilu 9y ago

I don't use facebook so I'm wondering : isn't there a way to turn a private message into a public one, so that users think twice before sending an offensive one?

bonniemuffin 9y ago
Well, you can screenshot it and share the screenshot, but that doesn't seem to stop people apparently.
Can_Not 9y ago
On OSX shift+cmd+4 gives you a box selector that saves what you selected as an image to your desktop, where you can share it back on Facebook as a public image.

nerdponx 9y ago

One night after the conference talks were over, a bunch of conference participants and I went for a swim in the ocean. While I was swimming around, S repeatedly grabbed me under the water, putting his hands on my torso, hips, and thighs. I tried to play it off and swim away. He picked me up and pulled me into his chest. He then started to carry me away from the rest of the group, presumably to have some sort of private moment with me that I had absolutely no interest in sharing with him. I struggled, gently at first and then more forcefully, and he let me go. How is this not outright assault? Why are the police not involved and why is this guy not being charged with anything? Why is anyone concerned about protecting his privacy?

ajross 9y ago
Checking the author's twitter, it looks like the guy has been named at this point. And it's not assault because it's not. He was playing in the pool, she disengaged successfully. If you push someone in expectation of a bar fight and they walk away, the police likewise aren't going to pursue charges. That doesn't excuse it, of course. But there's a limit to the protection we can get from law enforcement. Obviously if it happens repeatedly, this can be harrassment, which is something that can be pursued via civil means.
- graeme 9y ago
  Have a look at the comment I wrote in reply. It is assault. There are reasons why assault isn't prosecuted, but we should be aware of the nature of the offense. (And, probably sexual assault, but that depends on how it's defined in the jurisdiction. In Canada this would be sexual assault)
  - graeme 9y ago
    Ajross, in case you're reading replies, your comment above has been flagged and is dead. I don't believe it deserved that. I do think what you wrote has a legal mistake, but there's no malice, and it's a fairly common mistake.
    - 9y ago

SubiculumCode 9y ago

Misleading title.

SubiculumCode 9y ago

While men are often perpetrators, and may have predisposition to do so, I believe a large driver of sexual harassment is power relationships. This means men over women, but increasingly,also power relationships involving a female over male subordinates. Sure some male subordinates might receive it gladly, and women often think that offering themselves sexually is doing a male a favor, not all male subordinates will perceive it this way. Anyway, I just wanted to chime in about how central power relationships are to these things, and how they often lead to abuse, and also abnormal behaviors in people with power.

SubiculumCode 9y ago
If anyone inferred the above post as not supporting women and then downvoted, that is just not the case. Sexual harrassment is wrong. Full stop.
crimsonalucard 9y ago
How can you say men have predisposition to be perpetrators? How come men aren't rallying and getting outraged? What if I said men are predisposed to be better at science and technical careers? Men are predisposed to being better leaders? By using the word predisposition on sex, are you implying that men and women aren't equal?
- SubiculumCode 9y ago
  I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not. Across many species, males exhibit forceful sex behaviors. Those behaviors increased fitness.
  - crimsonalucard 9y ago
    Science can be immoral at times. When science and morality are at odds, the right thing to do is to make the moral choice. One just needs to look at the holocaust to see the perils of placing science first. What you state is a true scientific fact. However, it is immoral because it implies that men and women aren't equal. Thus because it is immoral, the fact cannot be true. Women are equal to men in both intelligence, aggression, height, size, strength, ability and penis length. To imply otherwise is to be sexist.

fullshark 9y ago

I expected this to be the millionth blogpost about p-values. It's pretty clear that any organization is gonna have some powerful men (people?) in it who sexually harassed people. I don't think any industry is free from it, though some industries may more conducive to it (hollywood and academia for example are industries with cults of personality, and a lot of people desperate to be involved in it).

crimsonalucard 9y ago

What about the instances when men are harassed by women? It must happen to men in equal amounts because for this not to happen would mean that men and women are unequal which is sexist and wrong.

a_puppy 9y ago

On the one hand, the behavior she describes is unambiguously sexual harassment, and no well-meaning person would behave like "S" did by accident. On the other hand, I still remember Donglegate, so this trend towards more men being accused of sexual harassment makes me nervous.

crimsonalucard 9y ago

Nothing is wrong with statistics. This is just a sexual harasser. Why frame it as a new social issue in statistics when this is a very well known general problem in society?

YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago

>> Since then, I have heard one professor who witnessed the incident openly lament that he’ll have to find a way to delicately advise his female students on “how not to get raped by S” so as not to lose promising students. I mean, that's a start, but maybe the most general solution in this case is to make sure S doesn't actually try to rape anyone?

robot197 9y ago

Given all the events happening in society regarding sexual assault, I think I need to point out something. These men who abuse their positions are repugnant creatures.They are worthless animals incapable of controlling their instincts. Grown ass men, who haven't yet learned to control their mind. Somehow they achieved success without any significant strengthening of their mind. Pathetic. But I don't think this portrayal of all women as innocent angels who these evil men are out to abuse isn't right. There are pathetic men, just as there are pathetic women. It might not be the case here, but women use these powerful men, give them sexual favors, so that they can accumulate power for themselves. In the case of Weinstein, so many famous actress, kept quiet and let him do what he wanted, simply for the pursuit of fame, money etc, and now when it became safe to accuse him, after they acquired their fame, they did. Of-course, these creeps are repugnant, but the women who keep quiet, use them and enable their behavior are pretty immoral too. So kudos to this women for speaking out. Some posters where saying, that any scientific progress he makes should be ignored, that is pretty stupid. I think the women should name him, so that their will be atleast a social cost for him, if not legal.

ashwinpp 9y ago

I think there are two orthogonal issues in the discussion which I would like to untangle. Some of the proposed solutions have been about maintaining a "social distance" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15939009 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15939009) to "reduce the odds" of sexual attraction [Pencesque] (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15940041 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15940041) and consequently sexual harassment at the workplace. Another comment asked about whether pool parties at a conference make sense (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15937938 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15937938) The orthogonal issues are 1) Non-consensual unwanted advances 2) Curbing avenues for sexual attraction I call them orthogonal because, - A person with enough avenues for sexual attraction at workplace or otherwise and choose not to do anything non-consentual and to recognize the people he/she feels attracted towards as equal humans even if they are his/her superiors or juniors. - A person with few avenues for sexual attraction can choose to be non-consentual and delegitimize the humanity of his/her victims despite the lack of abundance of opportunity. Mixing up these issues ends up confusing infidelity and sexual harassment. A person who seeks and engages in consensual sex outside his/her marriage is guilty of infidelity but not guilty of sexual harassment. A person who makes unwanted advances towards a married partner is guilty of sexual harassment irrespective of the fact that the victim is a married partner. Note that I would categorize anything that makes the other person uncomfortable as an unwanted sexual advance. If a person talks about his/her pornography fetishes, but the other isn't interested, it is unwanted. If a person grabs the other other by the waist, while the other does not like it and tries to wriggle free, it is unwanted. If a person asks a subordinate for drinks and the subordinate is unwilling but pressured into accompanying, it is unwanted. Being unwanted is a clear signal for a person to not engage in a certain activity in the future and the victim should not be expected to create a ruckus in order to reject unwanted advances.