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> "Nobody actually transacts in cryptocurrency," Goldbard says. "So making something that people can actually use is our first goal. And then we want to find ad

icelancer 9y ago
> "Nobody actually transacts in cryptocurrency," Goldbard says. "So making something that people can actually use is our first goal. And then we want to find additional ways that people can implement it over time. But initially all we want is to make it so people can actually complete transactions." This is being solved by Shapeshift.io and XMR.to. I transact in cryptocurrency all the time using these intermediary services with BTC as the usual medium of exchange. It's opened my skeptical eyes about the future of how things will work.
- superquest 9y ago
  https://xmr.to/ https://xmr.to/ looks waaaay too complicated for the average person to use, which is a nonstarter for the average person. And it still processes a Bitcoin transaction, correct? So it will be no faster than Bitcoin?
  - icelancer 9y ago
    >https://xmr.to/ https://xmr.to/ looks waaaay too complicated for the average person to use, which is a nonstarter for the average person. OK, that's fine, but services like that could - and will - get much friendlier. I'm just rebutting the quote which is the blanket "no one transacts in cryptocurrency" which is certainly not true for me, even though I felt that way just 2 months ago. Now that I am an active miner of various currencies, I find myself using it quite frequently for random goods/services, even though the plan was really just to convert it quickly into USD fiat to continue reinvesting into the mining operations or to pocket it.
    - superquest 9y ago
      Fair point. I think "no one" here is a rhetorical exaggeration meaning "not very many," which might resolve our disagreement ...
wmf 9y ago
Because you can't get rich building it and you can't get rich hodling it and the press won't create much buzz.
- superquest 9y ago
  Why can't you get rich building it? I doubt one would get rich as Bitcoin creators, but one could still make a killing .... Edit: And this stands to reason. We're relatively later in the game, and so new contributions are less fundamental by definition.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - lumberjack 9y ago
    > Why can't you get rich building it? Because it defeats the point. There is no "coin" that will exponentially appreciate in value, making you a billionaire. There is also no centralisation, so you cannot be the owner of the payment system in the same way that Paypal or Visa are. At best you can be the Linus Torvalds of your payment system non-profit. Which would be a good gig in itself. But that comes with lots of hard work, not the easy riches that you can do from some hype-pump-dump scam in less than 6 months.
    - snowwrestler 9y ago
      To build on this comment, the purpose of a currency is to facilitate the transaction of value, not to store value. If an instrument stores value, it's an asset, not currency. One can of course transact business with assets, but it's a lot more complicated because you have to agree to a valuation. And without a currency, how do you measure that? Plus, the incentives for assets and currencies are opposed. Currency exists to be spent, but if an asset is appreciating, you'll want to hold it, not trade it. Bitcoin was advertised as a currency but it's acting like an asset. (And it's regulated like an asset.) If you create a new class of asset, you can buy in early, hold on, and get rich on appreciation. But if you invent a new currency? It's like inventing the inch. Even if everyone uses it, that doesn't give you any more length of your own.
em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
Doesn't lightning network fix this problem?
- Cyberdog 9y ago
  Tell us all about all the problems Lightning Network fixes once it is actually implemented.
  - prophesi 9y ago
    Doesn't solve usability, but it solves the slow transaction speeds.
    - superquest 9y ago
      Note: transaction speed is a component of usability
    - icelancer 9y ago
      That's possible, but the commenter above you isn't talking about that. He is talking about the fact that it is yet to launch and solve all of the problems it purports to.
  - jerdfelt 9y ago
    I'm not sure if you're trying to imply that Lightning Network is vaporware, but there are currently three implementations that pass the integration tests: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning https://github.com/ACINQ/eclair https://github.com/ACINQ/eclair https://cdecker.github.io/lightning-integration/ https://cdecker.github.io/lightning-integration/
    - Cyberdog 9y ago
      Oh, please. You and the other replier knew what I meant by "implemented."
highd 9y ago
This is secondary to there being no benefit to the average user for transacting in crypto vs Visa. What incentive is there for an end user to use even a hypothetically optimal crypto system? Then is that incentive sufficient to overcome network effects? The appropriate and interesting applications of crypto seem to be totally leaving p2p cash behind - it just doesn't seem like a good fit.
- superquest 9y ago
  The hypothetically optimal crypto system would be cheaper for merchants, correct? So it would have wider adoption than Visa, at the very least. I do agree that crypto keeps drifting away from p2p cash ... that's a good observation. But I hope people keep shooting at that target.
  - kang 9y ago
    > The hypothetically optimal crypto system would be cheaper for merchants Incorrect. Decentralization is always more expensive and slower than centralized system(both hypothetically optimal) due to extra sync cost.
    - wmf 9y ago
      You're mixing cost and price. Let's say the cost of a Visa transaction is 0.1% and the price is 2.5% while the cost and price of a MobileCoin transaction are 0.2%. It costs more but it's still cheaper for merchants.
      - highd 9y ago
        Cash is cheaper for merchants, but people have only continued to use credit cards more. Further, if crypto becomes attractive from a cost perspective Visa will just be forced to bring down fees and stay competitive. It's pretty near impossible to imagine crypto with costs less than Visa's database.
        9y ago
DennisP 9y ago
On reason, in the U.S. at least, is that you're supposed to pay capital gains on every little bit you spend. There's a bill in Congress right now to exclude crypto transactions under $600 from capital gains, which would be a big help. Even if you do want to hold long term, you could just replenish what you spend along the way, if it weren't a tax reporting nightmare.
- dogma1138 9y ago
  You also do so in the UK and virtually every other country I can think off.
  - celticninja 9y ago
    Nope. You only have to report capital gains in excess of your annual allowance, which is £11,300 at the moment.
    - dogma1138 9y ago
      You still have to record them. Also don’t forget that if you have an ISA, other savings and investments that allowance isn’t that big. As an individual if you mine you have to record the value as it was at the time of mining if you buy you record it at the time of purchase and you pay capital gains if you exchange the crypto for fiat currency or goods or services directly on the difference between the values. It gets more complicated since you can’t select an individual currency unit form your wallet but atm you are allowed to use creative accounting for that. The fact that you have an allowance doesn’t mean it’s not taxed and if you have any substantial amount you’ll blow throgh that allowance pretty darn fast.
      - psergeant 9y ago
        I don’t believe any assets held in an ISA have any bearing at all on your capital gains allowance.
        9y ago

icelancer 9y ago

> "Nobody actually transacts in cryptocurrency," Goldbard says. "So making something that people can actually use is our first goal. And then we want to find additional ways that people can implement it over time. But initially all we want is to make it so people can actually complete transactions." This is being solved by Shapeshift.io and XMR.to. I transact in cryptocurrency all the time using these intermediary services with BTC as the usual medium of exchange. It's opened my skeptical eyes about the future of how things will work.

superquest 9y ago
https://xmr.to/ https://xmr.to/ looks waaaay too complicated for the average person to use, which is a nonstarter for the average person. And it still processes a Bitcoin transaction, correct? So it will be no faster than Bitcoin?
- icelancer 9y ago
  >https://xmr.to/ https://xmr.to/ looks waaaay too complicated for the average person to use, which is a nonstarter for the average person. OK, that's fine, but services like that could - and will - get much friendlier. I'm just rebutting the quote which is the blanket "no one transacts in cryptocurrency" which is certainly not true for me, even though I felt that way just 2 months ago. Now that I am an active miner of various currencies, I find myself using it quite frequently for random goods/services, even though the plan was really just to convert it quickly into USD fiat to continue reinvesting into the mining operations or to pocket it.
  - superquest 9y ago
    Fair point. I think "no one" here is a rhetorical exaggeration meaning "not very many," which might resolve our disagreement ...

wmf 9y ago

Because you can't get rich building it and you can't get rich hodling it and the press won't create much buzz.

superquest 9y ago
Why can't you get rich building it? I doubt one would get rich as Bitcoin creators, but one could still make a killing .... Edit: And this stands to reason. We're relatively later in the game, and so new contributions are less fundamental by definition.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- lumberjack 9y ago
  > Why can't you get rich building it? Because it defeats the point. There is no "coin" that will exponentially appreciate in value, making you a billionaire. There is also no centralisation, so you cannot be the owner of the payment system in the same way that Paypal or Visa are. At best you can be the Linus Torvalds of your payment system non-profit. Which would be a good gig in itself. But that comes with lots of hard work, not the easy riches that you can do from some hype-pump-dump scam in less than 6 months.
  - snowwrestler 9y ago
    To build on this comment, the purpose of a currency is to facilitate the transaction of value, not to store value. If an instrument stores value, it's an asset, not currency. One can of course transact business with assets, but it's a lot more complicated because you have to agree to a valuation. And without a currency, how do you measure that? Plus, the incentives for assets and currencies are opposed. Currency exists to be spent, but if an asset is appreciating, you'll want to hold it, not trade it. Bitcoin was advertised as a currency but it's acting like an asset. (And it's regulated like an asset.) If you create a new class of asset, you can buy in early, hold on, and get rich on appreciation. But if you invent a new currency? It's like inventing the inch. Even if everyone uses it, that doesn't give you any more length of your own.

em3rgent0rdr 9y ago

Doesn't lightning network fix this problem?

Cyberdog 9y ago
Tell us all about all the problems Lightning Network fixes once it is actually implemented.
- prophesi 9y ago
  Doesn't solve usability, but it solves the slow transaction speeds.
  - superquest 9y ago
    Note: transaction speed is a component of usability
  - icelancer 9y ago
    That's possible, but the commenter above you isn't talking about that. He is talking about the fact that it is yet to launch and solve all of the problems it purports to.
- jerdfelt 9y ago
  I'm not sure if you're trying to imply that Lightning Network is vaporware, but there are currently three implementations that pass the integration tests: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning https://github.com/ACINQ/eclair https://github.com/ACINQ/eclair https://cdecker.github.io/lightning-integration/ https://cdecker.github.io/lightning-integration/
  - Cyberdog 9y ago
    Oh, please. You and the other replier knew what I meant by "implemented."

highd 9y ago

This is secondary to there being no benefit to the average user for transacting in crypto vs Visa. What incentive is there for an end user to use even a hypothetically optimal crypto system? Then is that incentive sufficient to overcome network effects? The appropriate and interesting applications of crypto seem to be totally leaving p2p cash behind - it just doesn't seem like a good fit.

superquest 9y ago
The hypothetically optimal crypto system would be cheaper for merchants, correct? So it would have wider adoption than Visa, at the very least. I do agree that crypto keeps drifting away from p2p cash ... that's a good observation. But I hope people keep shooting at that target.
- kang 9y ago
  > The hypothetically optimal crypto system would be cheaper for merchants Incorrect. Decentralization is always more expensive and slower than centralized system(both hypothetically optimal) due to extra sync cost.
  - wmf 9y ago
    You're mixing cost and price. Let's say the cost of a Visa transaction is 0.1% and the price is 2.5% while the cost and price of a MobileCoin transaction are 0.2%. It costs more but it's still cheaper for merchants.
    - highd 9y ago
      Cash is cheaper for merchants, but people have only continued to use credit cards more. Further, if crypto becomes attractive from a cost perspective Visa will just be forced to bring down fees and stay competitive. It's pretty near impossible to imagine crypto with costs less than Visa's database.
      - 9y ago

DennisP 9y ago

On reason, in the U.S. at least, is that you're supposed to pay capital gains on every little bit you spend. There's a bill in Congress right now to exclude crypto transactions under $600 from capital gains, which would be a big help. Even if you do want to hold long term, you could just replenish what you spend along the way, if it weren't a tax reporting nightmare.

dogma1138 9y ago
You also do so in the UK and virtually every other country I can think off.
- celticninja 9y ago
  Nope. You only have to report capital gains in excess of your annual allowance, which is £11,300 at the moment.
  - dogma1138 9y ago
    You still have to record them. Also don’t forget that if you have an ISA, other savings and investments that allowance isn’t that big. As an individual if you mine you have to record the value as it was at the time of mining if you buy you record it at the time of purchase and you pay capital gains if you exchange the crypto for fiat currency or goods or services directly on the difference between the values. It gets more complicated since you can’t select an individual currency unit form your wallet but atm you are allowed to use creative accounting for that. The fact that you have an allowance doesn’t mean it’s not taxed and if you have any substantial amount you’ll blow throgh that allowance pretty darn fast.
    - psergeant 9y ago
      I don’t believe any assets held in an ISA have any bearing at all on your capital gains allowance.
      - 9y ago