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Meyer's most interesting sentence is the last [1], about the extent to which he achieved his research goals at ETHZ: [T]he story told in this article is

Meyer's most interesting sentence is the last [1], about the extent to which he achieved his research goals at ETHZ: [T]he story told in this article is one of glaring, unremitted and probably definitive failure. What wonderful and unusual honesty. [1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/1712.05078.pdf#page=95 https://arxiv.org/pdf/1712.05078.pdf#page=95

amelius 9y ago
Yes, but why save this statement until the end? The abstract and introduction say nothing of the sort.
- YorkshireSeason 9y ago
  Why do you say "hello, nice to meet you"? I imagine that this document was written to a target audience, propbably so as to satify some funder's requirement, e.g. as 'post-mortem' for his ERC grants. Audiences have expectations as to what can and cannot be said. Funding organisations want/need success stories. Honesty is not always appropriate see e.g. yesterday's [1]. Honesty needs 'padding'. Meyer had numerous students, and his last sentence makes a statement about their professional work too. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15924093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15924093
  - amelius 9y ago
    > Meyer had numerous students, and his last sentence makes a statement about their professional work too. Well, I think the phrase "glaring, unremitted and probably definitive failure" is not one of modest honesty, and if he would have wanted to be politically correct, he could have definitely phrased it differently. (Just trying to look at this objectively).
- vikascoder 9y ago
  Pump and Dump European Sarcasm.
- throwaway262 9y ago
  Here, let me paste in the rest of the quote for context: "The outcomes that matter in research are not numerous publications, best-paper awards, PhD theses, keynote invitations, software tools, citations and other measurable signs of progress. I was after real success, in the sense of changing the way the IT industry develops software. That was the only justification for putting in parentheses my career as a technology entrepreneur. When you have an ambitious goal, you should be judged by that goal. Such absurd pieties as “it’s the journey that matters” or “what’s important is to participate” (by, of all people, Coubertin, founder of modern Olympics) are even more wrong in research than anywhere else. Only the result counts. By that standard, the story told in this article is one of glaring, unremitted and probably definitive failure." Still, if you're too lazy to click on a goddamn link to get the answer to your question, I doubt that'll help you much.
  - dang 9y ago
    We've banned this account for violating the site guidelines with personal attack. When people do this we eventually ban their main account as well, so please take https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html to heart and please don't post like this again.
codeisawesome 9y ago
I agree that it’s an honest statement, however I feel like the full context is necessary (the surrounding paragraph). “”” Still, one should not lie. The outcomes that matter in research are not numerous publications, best-paper awards, completed PhD theses, keynote invitations, soft- ware tools, citations and other measurable signs of progress. I was after real success, in the sense of changing the way the IT industry develops software. That was the only justification for putting in parentheses my career as a technology entrepreneur. When you have an ambitious goal, you should be judged by that goal. Such absurd pieties as “it’s the journey that matters” or “what’s important is to participate” (by, of all people, Coubertin, founder of modern Olympics) are even more wrong in research than anywhere else. Only the result counts. By that standard, the story told in this article is one of glaring, unremitted and probably definitive failure. “””
nickpsecurity 9y ago
That's too pessimistic view. This document was excellent in showing off all kinds of things that worked from education to developing useful tech to getting it into hands of some of industry. Those with strong focus on quality are always niche. Obviously, driving Worse is Better on grand scales in enterprise or FOSS takes a different set of techniques that operate close to the techs and practices that have already mainstreamed with a lot of momentum. Reports of success in those areas combined with what's in this document might allow people to develop hybrid approaches that get stuff done along both axises. As partial confirmation, we've already seen some of the same types of tooling that Eiffel has develop in .NET and Java spaces. Companies pay a lot of money for them, too. Still potential to repeat some of ETH's success with integrated tooling for other mainstream languages mixing tech that benefits various aspects of the software lifecycle. The releases could be a mix of proprietary tools that generate funding plus FOSS components that keep a strong ecosystem of contributors.
- YorkshireSeason 9y ago
  Meyer had a clearcut idea what he wanted from tooling. And that has not yet been achieved, neither by him, nor by anybody else. Maybe this will change in the future.

amelius 9y ago

Yes, but why save this statement until the end? The abstract and introduction say nothing of the sort.

YorkshireSeason 9y ago
Why do you say "hello, nice to meet you"? I imagine that this document was written to a target audience, propbably so as to satify some funder's requirement, e.g. as 'post-mortem' for his ERC grants. Audiences have expectations as to what can and cannot be said. Funding organisations want/need success stories. Honesty is not always appropriate see e.g. yesterday's [1]. Honesty needs 'padding'. Meyer had numerous students, and his last sentence makes a statement about their professional work too. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15924093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15924093
- amelius 9y ago
  > Meyer had numerous students, and his last sentence makes a statement about their professional work too. Well, I think the phrase "glaring, unremitted and probably definitive failure" is not one of modest honesty, and if he would have wanted to be politically correct, he could have definitely phrased it differently. (Just trying to look at this objectively).
vikascoder 9y ago
Pump and Dump European Sarcasm.
throwaway262 9y ago
Here, let me paste in the rest of the quote for context: "The outcomes that matter in research are not numerous publications, best-paper awards, PhD theses, keynote invitations, software tools, citations and other measurable signs of progress. I was after real success, in the sense of changing the way the IT industry develops software. That was the only justification for putting in parentheses my career as a technology entrepreneur. When you have an ambitious goal, you should be judged by that goal. Such absurd pieties as “it’s the journey that matters” or “what’s important is to participate” (by, of all people, Coubertin, founder of modern Olympics) are even more wrong in research than anywhere else. Only the result counts. By that standard, the story told in this article is one of glaring, unremitted and probably definitive failure." Still, if you're too lazy to click on a goddamn link to get the answer to your question, I doubt that'll help you much.
- dang 9y ago
  We've banned this account for violating the site guidelines with personal attack. When people do this we eventually ban their main account as well, so please take https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html to heart and please don't post like this again.

codeisawesome 9y ago

I agree that it’s an honest statement, however I feel like the full context is necessary (the surrounding paragraph). “”” Still, one should not lie. The outcomes that matter in research are not numerous publications, best-paper awards, completed PhD theses, keynote invitations, soft- ware tools, citations and other measurable signs of progress. I was after real success, in the sense of changing the way the IT industry develops software. That was the only justification for putting in parentheses my career as a technology entrepreneur. When you have an ambitious goal, you should be judged by that goal. Such absurd pieties as “it’s the journey that matters” or “what’s important is to participate” (by, of all people, Coubertin, founder of modern Olympics) are even more wrong in research than anywhere else. Only the result counts. By that standard, the story told in this article is one of glaring, unremitted and probably definitive failure. “””

nickpsecurity 9y ago

That's too pessimistic view. This document was excellent in showing off all kinds of things that worked from education to developing useful tech to getting it into hands of some of industry. Those with strong focus on quality are always niche. Obviously, driving Worse is Better on grand scales in enterprise or FOSS takes a different set of techniques that operate close to the techs and practices that have already mainstreamed with a lot of momentum. Reports of success in those areas combined with what's in this document might allow people to develop hybrid approaches that get stuff done along both axises. As partial confirmation, we've already seen some of the same types of tooling that Eiffel has develop in .NET and Java spaces. Companies pay a lot of money for them, too. Still potential to repeat some of ETH's success with integrated tooling for other mainstream languages mixing tech that benefits various aspects of the software lifecycle. The releases could be a mix of proprietary tools that generate funding plus FOSS components that keep a strong ecosystem of contributors.

YorkshireSeason 9y ago
Meyer had a clearcut idea what he wanted from tooling. And that has not yet been achieved, neither by him, nor by anybody else. Maybe this will change in the future.