13 ms·
Nike’s Two Hour Marathon Attempt
- pcunite 9y agoWear Altra shoes (or something similar) and protect your feet.
- mikestew 9y agoSomething wrong with Nikes?
- pcunite 9y agoThere is strong evidence of a need to wear shoes that don't pinch the toes (push them together) nor elevate the heel to much.
- Analemma_ 9y agoI'm just one data point, but as a semi-serious runner I tried switching from ordinary Nike running shoes to the cushion-less, toe-heel-preferred style, and found it made no difference. I think all this business about "running shoes are bad for you" is an overblown fad, no different than all the other fitness fads that come and go.
- caio1982 9y agoThankfully there are scientific data to prove you wrong. You just need to leave your prejudice and bubble behind, and we're talking about running mechanics here not Nike's competitors producing minimalist shoe wear. They you can have doubt about.
- bostonpete 9y agoYour comment comes across as a little smug. Are you sure the scientific data conclusively proves the GP's comment "wrong"? You didn't link to what you had in mind, but this study seems to reinforce their comment... https://www.runnersworld.com/running-shoes/study-zero-drop-cushioned-shoes-show-no-difference-in-injury-rates https://www.runnersworld.com/running-shoes/study-zero-drop-c...
- hangonhn 9y agoI would be very interested in seeing those data. If you're going to cite Lieberman, I would say that he is a lot more cautious and nuanced than most articles have make him sound. He doesn't make overly generalized bold claims. Most of these papers I've come across makes a number of assumption and use various methods that are proxies for what they want to measure. For example, they will force plates to measure the amount of force generated against the ground. But that doesn't necessarily imply more injuries because of the number of different components involved in your feet and legs. In fact, the foot is extraordinarily complex and I think that's part of Lieberman's general idea. I don't think it's prudent to reduce it to a single set of number and say "yep, more injuries" because having shoes on or off and different design of shoes can all affect how your feet and legs respond to that force. It's not that I necessarily disagree with your statement but as far as I know there is no scientific paper that simply states, "shoes are bad for running" or "minimal shoes are good", etc. Making claims like that are often unhelpful because there isn't one simple answer to running injuries. We have a huge number of supporting muscles and components that are involved in running. Your feet is only one part in that system and even those are complex systems in themselves.
- yesenadam 9y ago"Don't be snarky."
- hangonhn 9y agoYes. In fact, after that fad it swung the other way and the Hoka shoes started becoming very popular. I will say that, however, over time I've gradually switched to less supportive shoes as I've become more experienced as a runner. I started with "anti-pronation" shoes and now are running with fairly bare minimal shoes. I think I just like the feeling of lighter shoes.
- imglorp 9y agoCame here to talk about that and see what people thought about barefoot running: either completely unshod or very minimal padding for protection only and not for landing cushion/support. For better or worse, barefoot forces you to adopt a different gait. Stride length is reduced and landing is shifted more mid/fore-foot instead of heels. Now, can you do this in padded shoes? Sure. You just don't have much choice when barefooting: you will change your stride. If you view heel striking as a bad habit--maybe causing injury--this will prevent that at least. Personal experience: old guy, unable to run much distance in regular shoes, and after a long conversion period changing technique, I can run a 5k comfortably without injury. Unshod. I'm trying to get up to a 10k. I do wonder if the technique will back-port to regular shoes or if the shod injuries will return.
- hangonhn 9y agoMy personal experience with this is that the real benefit for me with minimal shoes is that I forced myself to shorten my stride. I had to retrain myself by using a foot pod and a heart rate monitor that would beep if my cadence goes below 90 per minute. A high cadence forces my body to shorten its stride length and I think that has made a bigger difference for me in terms of injury than anything else. I've stayed with minimal shoes simply because it's easier to have a high cadence in light weight minimal shoes. Plus, the more padded shoes became unnecessary. Not sure if the technique works for you but could be worth trying.
- jgladch 9y agointeresting, this is in line with current cycling performance concepts as well. top cyclists are aiming for ~90-105 cadence when climbing atm.
- durandal1 9y agoI have the same experience, I couldn't even run 2 miles without inflammation flaring up in the knees (I tried to build up distance many times) - but after running with Evo barefoot shoes for about 2 years (which allowed me to run 10k:s without problem), I can now run with any type of shoes - but my technique is completely transformed with much shorter stride length and a high cadence.
- eitally 9y agoThere's stronger evidence (among serious-ish runners) that it doesn't really matter, and you should wear what feels good.
- teamhappy 9y ago> There's stronger evidence (among serious-ish runners) There's some science behind it too. Google "Benno Nigg" and "comfort filter".
- bub_davos 9y agoA few week's ago I read a a paper entitled "Modeling: optimal marathon performance on the basis of physiological factors". I found the topic incredibly interesting. In this paper (from 1991) the author examines the limiting factors in human running and tries to build a model that gives you a bound on how fast a human could run a marathon. The results he got is 1:57:58. You can take a look at the paper here http://fermatslibrary.com/s/modeling-optimal-marathon-performance-on-the-basis-of-physiological-factors http://fermatslibrary.com/s/modeling-optimal-marathon-perfor...
- strictnein 9y agoThat paper is referenced in this story.
- ng-user 9y agoAmazing how people don't even open the article isn't it? edit: opening it is the easy part, reading however proves challenging for some
- ouid 9y agohow do you open the article?
- j4ship 9y agowhat article? all i see are comments ... nice juicy comments
- xeromal 9y agoWhat's comments, precious?
- surrey-fringe 9y agoYou posted a JOKE. Have some DOWNFOTES
- kbenson 9y ago
- legohead 9y agoI was going to call out this article on the "Untold" part, but apparently it was released before the NatGeo video [1]. The video is a good watch. I didn't plan to watch the whole thing, but it sucked me in. You really get attached to the runners. When Kipchoge started falling behind, they seemed to not be worried, but I felt that they should have tried to remedy it right away. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2ZLG-Fij_4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2ZLG-Fij_4
- bobsgame 9y agoI believe everyone physically able to should try running 13.1 mph on a treadmill just to get an understanding of just how fast these athletes run for two hours. It is incredible.
- jandrese 9y ago13.1 mph is a decent pace on a bike! That's the sort of pace you set for a commute to split minimizing your commute time with arriving at work not completely exhausted and sweaty.
- brianwawok 9y agoAre you including stopsigns in that, or actual steady state? I think up to 15 or 18 mph is pretty easy pace for anyone who even road bikes once a week.
- jandrese 9y agoDepends how hilly the terrain is.
- choward 9y agoPretty sure I'd fly off.
- gebeeson 9y agoJust for fun I cranked my treadmill up to 12mph which is the max. Not while I was on it because I know I'd fly off. Every time I 'run' I think about fast running for a long distance. Then I usually stop my workout and go sit on the couch and think of some things. Sub 2hr marathon is Stupid Fast.
- privacypoller 9y agoI used to sometimes run a mile in the middle of my treadmill run @ 10 mpg. I'm a bigger guy and regularly the machine would shut down because the belt would start to slip or overheat at that pace. I don't think it would even do 13+ mph
- smidgen2 9y agoThis is not news. Why is this in the HN feed? I read this article months ago.
- arcticfox 9y agoThere is nothing that says HN submissions need to be from the current date.
- dang 9y agoTo add to what arcticfox correctly said: we put the year on articles from previous years but this one is from earlier in 2017. Historical material is super welcome here too. The "News" in "Hacker News" is like a second-hand clothing store in my home town called "New to You". Of course this article didn't qualify in your case, but that's the general idea. Older posts can't be new to all of the people all of the time but in the long run there are enough surprises to go around.
- greglindahl 9y agoOne would hope that discussions about whether repeating old news is interesting or not is encouraged.
- dang 9y agoHN's definition of 'interesting' is for practical purposes pretty established. Of course we don't all agree, but there's enough of a stable core that I wouldn't say it changes much.
- olivermarks 9y agoSpeaking as someone who has run a lot of marathons and half marathons, it would be more honest to describe this project as attempting to have a human run 26.2 miles in under 2 hours in perfect, laboratory like conditions. It's a little insulting to marathon runners to claim this is a 'marathon' IMO. Long but fascinating article though...
- pboutros 9y agoIt's totally a marathon! Sure, the conditions are lab perfect -- but these are also some of the best runners in the world.
- chrisfosterelli 9y agoI don't want to take away from their substantial achievement but I think it's an important distinction between "lab perfect" and "techniques that would not be allowed in any official marathon race in the world".
- alasdair_ 9y ago>"techniques that would not be allowed in any official marathon race in the world" (genuine question) is there only one official body in the world that determines what a "marathon" is? My understanding is that the Boston Marathon (which certainly seems to be a marathon) isn't considered a "real" marathon because of various reasons (weather, elevation, non-loop nature of the course etc.)
- bronson 9y agoThe IAAF. Boston is an excellent marathon but ineligible for world records.
- zjaffee 9y agoThe original definition of a marathon involves running from Athens to Marathon in Greece, and when your average person thinks of a marathon, they think of the street races that happen all around the world. Marathon running isn't necessarily a track and field sport in the way the 100 meter sprint is.
- padobson 9y agoBut by then, he had won four major marathons and the Olympic gold medal, and what he lacked in raw physical potential he made up for with … something. It seems like the next frontier in distance running optimization is the mind. Given the analysis on the runners' physiology, the only thing that really separated them was mentality. This seems obvious, given the nature of distance running, but the article never mentions sports psychology or mental exercises the runners do to improve performance. That's pretty interesting, given that so many elite athletes have put such an emphasis on the mental part of their game: I knew I was going to wrestle in the finals of the Olympics against a Russian and I knew he had been training specifically to beat me, but then I knew the guy was on steroids, That would help me. Whereas some might think ‘oh he’s cheating, for me you didn’t pay the price. You’re not as committed as I am. It’ll tear him apart. He may be strong, but all I have to do during that 9 minutes of wrestling is loosen one single wire in his brain, make him do something that isn’t perfect, and he’ll fall apart. Besides the health effects, what you lose when you use steroids is mental toughness. The key to victory is that the strongest mind wins. You can get physical strength with steroids, but you lose the mental toughness (you would have gained) from brutal hard work. Steroids hurt mental toughness by serving as a crutch. - Dan Gable[0] Champions aren’t made in gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them – a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have the skill, and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. To be a champion you must believe you are the best. If you’re not, pretend you are. - Muhammad Ali[1] Physically is a little bit easier, but the mental part is the hardest part, and I think that's what separates the good players from the great players - Michael Jordan[2] [0]https://www.bjjee.com/articles/wrestling-legend-dan-gable-steroid-users-lack-mental-toughness/ https://www.bjjee.com/articles/wrestling-legend-dan-gable-st... [1]https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-power-of-visualisation-in-sports-and-in-life-s1s/ https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-power-of-vis... [2]https://youtu.be/xlFRZmUmaYI https://youtu.be/xlFRZmUmaYI
- other_herbert 9y agorunning may not seem like it, but the way you think about what you are doing especially in a race scenario can make or break you quickly... I recently ran a half and did almost all of my morning prep beforehand wrong.. forgot some key things, freaked myself out just before the race and did far worse than I had trained for... if you think you've messed up, you've messed up :)
- Void_ 9y agoDid Tesla battery last the whole race? ;)
- jeffwass 9y agoYou're asking if the Tesla managed to drive a whopping 26.2 miles on a single charge?
- artur_makly 9y agomindblowing writer and runner https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2195464.What_I_Talk_About_When_I_Talk_About_Running https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2195464.What_I_Talk_Abou...
- yla92 9y agoYeah. I recently read the book and amazed by how good of a runner he is, especially his discipline and dedication. Inspiring, even might to the non-runners.
- rconti 9y agoI'm surprised to see no mention of temperature here. The article says the temperature was 53f and "a little bit humid", and concludes with the Nike experts saying they disagreed that it might have been too warm, arguing that the temperature was perfect. This flies in the face of much of what I've seen. Alex Hutchinson wrote a wonderful article entitled "What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?" in 2014[1], and in a subsequent piece[2] he lays out data from Paris officials who have found that the fastest elite runners did best with temps at 38.9f. This is a HUGE unexplained difference. Furthermore, with pacers blocking the wind more than ever, the Breaking2 effort would have given Kipchoge even less opportunities for evaporative and convective cooling. "When French researchers analyzed the finishing times of 1.8 million marathoners over a 10-year period, they found that a race-day temp of 43.2°F produced the quickest times overall. But faster runners, who generate more heat, benefited from cooler temps, with the top one percent (green line below) peaking at 38.9°F. Midpackers (red line) do best in the mid-40s." [1] https://rw.runnersworld.com/sub-2/?_ga=2.79362900.1119941834.1513383885-914977841.1512581592 https://rw.runnersworld.com/sub-2/?_ga=2.79362900.1119941834... [2]https://www.runnersworld.com/sweat-science/whats-the-optimal-temperature-for-marathons https://www.runnersworld.com/sweat-science/whats-the-optimal...
- Gustomaximus 9y ago38.9°F is 3.8°C to save people a conversion.
- aezell 9y agoElite marathoners are incredibly fast. It boggles the mind. But, for me, I'm more impressed by Camille Herron breaking the world record (men's and women's) for 100 miles in 12 hours, 42 minutes, and 39 seconds which is a 7:38/mi pace. Running a 7:38 mile would be really fast for most adults, but to do it over 100 miles is unthinkable.
- crikli 9y agoAgreed. Amazing accomplishment that many runners even don’t know about. I had a friend running the same race and it took him just under 20 hours. A seven hour difference boggles the mind.
- RickJWag 9y agoAmazing. I hope they make it happen.