4 ms·

It's not failing. North America is fine; people still want to move from other places to our place. Let's not be drastic. Let's sit down and listen and be calm.

aroberge 9y ago
The comment you replied to mentioned the USA. North America is a continent that includes 23 countries, only one of them is the USA. Living in one of the other 22 countries and looking at the USA, I would tend to agree with the comment that you were replying to, as the USA is becoming more and more an oligarchy, and less like a democracy.
- new-account-9 9y ago
  Fair enough, I should not be saying North America when it includes so many other countries, I should be saying USA and Canada which is what I mean. Look, it's not an oligarchy, it is a democracy. It seems to me that everyone thinks that just because Trump won the election that it is somehow not a democracy. I fear that the heavy anti-republican, anti-business sentiment will morph into a call for communism which will absolutely destroy the future of the human race.
  - chrisbennet 9y ago
    Socialism != Communism. In the US we have socialized fire departments, police departments, water departments, highways, and things like Medicare.
  - OldSchoolJohnny 9y ago
    Hey don't rope Canada into your mess! :)
  - 8note 9y ago
    It is an oligarchy though. just because Trump has an official position now doesn't mean he didn't have much more political power than other citizens before that. just listen to how he speaks about senators and congressfolk, who will "do anything for campaign contributions"
  - yndoendo 9y ago
    Milwaukee WI in the early 1900s had a Socialist Major and administration. Voted in to help stop corruption. Turns out his legacy is alive and well today. Summerfest is one of the worlds largest musical festivals. Original grounds for Summerfest was factories along the lake. Him and his administration turned it into a park. Everyone benefits from a park while factories come and go. Good politicians make a difference not the party. And by no means is the President of China a good politician.
  - ictoan 9y ago
    It is a democracy quickly turning into an oligarchy. In a democracy, people's voices get heard. In an oligarchy, $$ gets exchanged. This is exactly what is happening. Rich donors and lobbyists are buying Republican votes so they can avoid paying taxes and screw the middle class. The middle class has been shrinking for decades now. The rich gets richer and poor gets poorer is the best sign that oligarchy government is happening. Also, as other poster mentioned, socialism != communism. Grab a book, read about it.
  - Can_Not 9y ago
    > I fear that the heavy anti-republican, anti-business sentiment will morph into a call for communism which will absolutely destroy the future of the human race. This statement is insanely detached from reality. People are "heavy anti-republican" because modern Republican policies tend to be more about throwing humanity (or just poor people) under the bus for a quick money grab under the obviously misleading and fake pretense of family values and fiscal responsibility.
    - new-account-9 9y ago
      I think my statement is not insanely detached. Let's consider that the progressive culture of the bay area more or less throws men and western culture under the bus, what with our constant pursuit of sexual misdeeds perpetrated by the same men who bring us prosperity. Or that we take random ethnic groups, or women as a whole, and make them into victims of the "patriarchy", which translates into victims of western society, thus perpetuating the idea that western values are inherently evil. How about the fact that your company can get ripped apart for not having enough employees of certain races, or that conservatives either shut up or get ousted at big co's? There are invincible, roving SJW gangs with Google Sheets filled with names and details of tech workers that have been blacklisted for not being liberals. They enforce the ideology. Now, on to the republicans. You're saying that they're throwing poor people under the bus, and I think you're right, a lot of their policies are downright dangerous. But I cannot listen to anti-trump, anti-republican statements anymore because the real arguments are lost in the hysteria. I believe that traditional, western values are very important. They are what brought us to the promised land we are currently in - It was our colonialism and christian morals that allowed our society to blossom. I'm not going to budge on that. Now, I do want to receive good criticism from you and to improve my viewpoint, but the problem is that criticism often devolves on the part of the liberals to claims of being a racist, homophobe, transphobe, or xenophobe; that I'm some redneck who's uneducated and does not hold a valid opinion. That's why I'm worried. Communism worked by throwing anyone "against the state" into gulags, and against the state was a very low bar to pass. You basically had to have an uncommon or "off limits" opinion, which is what most all republicans have from the perspective of a progressive. Taken to the limit, perhaps this means that no republicans are allowed to get jobs at tech companies, they are unanimously attacked in the media, and slowly a mono-narrative emerges: Welcome immigrants, don't be straight, never express your innate male energy and aggression, and of course, if you're a woman, never have children and focus solely on your career. My imagination tells me that will happen, because the flame of that ideology has been lit and it is hard to snuff it out when the people confronted with it all hold tech jobs that they will lose if they speak out. Now I wish that you and I could have a real discussion about this because I know I haven't adequately addressed your central points, and I know my viewpoint is terribly flawed. But I think that shit gets fucked up a lot faster and a lot harder than any of us think, especially the rich ones of us in the bay. Good luck.
  - leadingthenet 9y ago
    > I fear that the heavy anti-republican, anti-business sentiment will morph into a call for communism I wish. I wish every conservatives fear about socialists / communists actually came true. Unfortunately, I fear the West will quickly slide into fascism waaaay before we actually start taking alternative economic systems seriously.
scott_karana 9y ago
"North America"? Please do not lump Canada, Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean in with your fiasco.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
SirZimzim 9y ago
Listen to what? Work more, receive less pay and benefits, and give up safety nets. Sounds exactly like something people would vote for in a functional democracy.
- new-account-9 9y ago
  You SHOULD be work more, and you should be glad to work more. Your work supports the best, most free, most prosperous country that has ever existed. You want to be mad and thrash around, like a bull in a China shop. I understand, but your reaction to negative outcomes is itself much more negative. You must be positive, listening, constantly productive and at your best behaviour. You must do this yourself because you need other people to do it, and we must all lead by example. I know you're mad, and that things aren't going the way you want to, but the truth is that things in USA and Canada are excellent and we should be very careful to get mad and start breaking things because we want to keep our promised land pristine. You're like a man with a blindfold and a baseball bat, and our democracy is the pinata. You can only do damage by swinging your bat around. You cannot help democracy that way.
  - Thorncorona 9y ago
    1: Let us know when you start working 18 hour days and consent to getting nickel and dimed by grubby companies who continually raise rates because they know you don't have a better option. 2: USA/Canada are great, but that doesn't mean they can't be improved. 3: You whole argument is doing nothing = everything will be fine. That's ridiculous.
    - new-account-9 9y ago
      What I'm saying is that you don't know enough to improve the system. You think you can just swing your blaming stick around like you know who's wrong and who is right. But you don't know that, and I don't know that, and the system we live in that is constantly producing prosperity is much too complex for anyone to understand. But you and I both know this one thing. We both know how to improve ourselves. We know things that we are both doing wrong. I know my problems, and I'm going to fix those before I start tearing down the beautiful, harmonic system that I've inherited.
sowbug 9y ago
There must be a stronger argument than observing that worse places exist in the world.

aroberge 9y ago

The comment you replied to mentioned the USA. North America is a continent that includes 23 countries, only one of them is the USA. Living in one of the other 22 countries and looking at the USA, I would tend to agree with the comment that you were replying to, as the USA is becoming more and more an oligarchy, and less like a democracy.

new-account-9 9y ago
Fair enough, I should not be saying North America when it includes so many other countries, I should be saying USA and Canada which is what I mean. Look, it's not an oligarchy, it is a democracy. It seems to me that everyone thinks that just because Trump won the election that it is somehow not a democracy. I fear that the heavy anti-republican, anti-business sentiment will morph into a call for communism which will absolutely destroy the future of the human race.
- chrisbennet 9y ago
  Socialism != Communism. In the US we have socialized fire departments, police departments, water departments, highways, and things like Medicare.
- OldSchoolJohnny 9y ago
  Hey don't rope Canada into your mess! :)
- 8note 9y ago
  It is an oligarchy though. just because Trump has an official position now doesn't mean he didn't have much more political power than other citizens before that. just listen to how he speaks about senators and congressfolk, who will "do anything for campaign contributions"
- yndoendo 9y ago
  Milwaukee WI in the early 1900s had a Socialist Major and administration. Voted in to help stop corruption. Turns out his legacy is alive and well today. Summerfest is one of the worlds largest musical festivals. Original grounds for Summerfest was factories along the lake. Him and his administration turned it into a park. Everyone benefits from a park while factories come and go. Good politicians make a difference not the party. And by no means is the President of China a good politician.
- ictoan 9y ago
  It is a democracy quickly turning into an oligarchy. In a democracy, people's voices get heard. In an oligarchy, $$ gets exchanged. This is exactly what is happening. Rich donors and lobbyists are buying Republican votes so they can avoid paying taxes and screw the middle class. The middle class has been shrinking for decades now. The rich gets richer and poor gets poorer is the best sign that oligarchy government is happening. Also, as other poster mentioned, socialism != communism. Grab a book, read about it.
- Can_Not 9y ago
  > I fear that the heavy anti-republican, anti-business sentiment will morph into a call for communism which will absolutely destroy the future of the human race. This statement is insanely detached from reality. People are "heavy anti-republican" because modern Republican policies tend to be more about throwing humanity (or just poor people) under the bus for a quick money grab under the obviously misleading and fake pretense of family values and fiscal responsibility.
  - new-account-9 9y ago
    I think my statement is not insanely detached. Let's consider that the progressive culture of the bay area more or less throws men and western culture under the bus, what with our constant pursuit of sexual misdeeds perpetrated by the same men who bring us prosperity. Or that we take random ethnic groups, or women as a whole, and make them into victims of the "patriarchy", which translates into victims of western society, thus perpetuating the idea that western values are inherently evil. How about the fact that your company can get ripped apart for not having enough employees of certain races, or that conservatives either shut up or get ousted at big co's? There are invincible, roving SJW gangs with Google Sheets filled with names and details of tech workers that have been blacklisted for not being liberals. They enforce the ideology. Now, on to the republicans. You're saying that they're throwing poor people under the bus, and I think you're right, a lot of their policies are downright dangerous. But I cannot listen to anti-trump, anti-republican statements anymore because the real arguments are lost in the hysteria. I believe that traditional, western values are very important. They are what brought us to the promised land we are currently in - It was our colonialism and christian morals that allowed our society to blossom. I'm not going to budge on that. Now, I do want to receive good criticism from you and to improve my viewpoint, but the problem is that criticism often devolves on the part of the liberals to claims of being a racist, homophobe, transphobe, or xenophobe; that I'm some redneck who's uneducated and does not hold a valid opinion. That's why I'm worried. Communism worked by throwing anyone "against the state" into gulags, and against the state was a very low bar to pass. You basically had to have an uncommon or "off limits" opinion, which is what most all republicans have from the perspective of a progressive. Taken to the limit, perhaps this means that no republicans are allowed to get jobs at tech companies, they are unanimously attacked in the media, and slowly a mono-narrative emerges: Welcome immigrants, don't be straight, never express your innate male energy and aggression, and of course, if you're a woman, never have children and focus solely on your career. My imagination tells me that will happen, because the flame of that ideology has been lit and it is hard to snuff it out when the people confronted with it all hold tech jobs that they will lose if they speak out. Now I wish that you and I could have a real discussion about this because I know I haven't adequately addressed your central points, and I know my viewpoint is terribly flawed. But I think that shit gets fucked up a lot faster and a lot harder than any of us think, especially the rich ones of us in the bay. Good luck.
- leadingthenet 9y ago
  > I fear that the heavy anti-republican, anti-business sentiment will morph into a call for communism I wish. I wish every conservatives fear about socialists / communists actually came true. Unfortunately, I fear the West will quickly slide into fascism waaaay before we actually start taking alternative economic systems seriously.

scott_karana 9y ago

"North America"? Please do not lump Canada, Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean in with your fiasco.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

SirZimzim 9y ago

Listen to what? Work more, receive less pay and benefits, and give up safety nets. Sounds exactly like something people would vote for in a functional democracy.

new-account-9 9y ago
You SHOULD be work more, and you should be glad to work more. Your work supports the best, most free, most prosperous country that has ever existed. You want to be mad and thrash around, like a bull in a China shop. I understand, but your reaction to negative outcomes is itself much more negative. You must be positive, listening, constantly productive and at your best behaviour. You must do this yourself because you need other people to do it, and we must all lead by example. I know you're mad, and that things aren't going the way you want to, but the truth is that things in USA and Canada are excellent and we should be very careful to get mad and start breaking things because we want to keep our promised land pristine. You're like a man with a blindfold and a baseball bat, and our democracy is the pinata. You can only do damage by swinging your bat around. You cannot help democracy that way.
- Thorncorona 9y ago
  1: Let us know when you start working 18 hour days and consent to getting nickel and dimed by grubby companies who continually raise rates because they know you don't have a better option. 2: USA/Canada are great, but that doesn't mean they can't be improved. 3: You whole argument is doing nothing = everything will be fine. That's ridiculous.
  - new-account-9 9y ago
    What I'm saying is that you don't know enough to improve the system. You think you can just swing your blaming stick around like you know who's wrong and who is right. But you don't know that, and I don't know that, and the system we live in that is constantly producing prosperity is much too complex for anyone to understand. But you and I both know this one thing. We both know how to improve ourselves. We know things that we are both doing wrong. I know my problems, and I'm going to fix those before I start tearing down the beautiful, harmonic system that I've inherited.

sowbug 9y ago

There must be a stronger argument than observing that worse places exist in the world.