5 ms·

To remove pirated movies from the interwebs there are two options really: either attack content providers / trackers etc, or, find the users directly. In Germa

To remove pirated movies from the interwebs there are two options really: either attack content providers / trackers etc, or, find the users directly. In Germany, as soon as you start a torrent client, your traffic is being monitored by bots and agents, and if you upload something inappropriate you (or your host) will get a letter from a law firm with a heavy fine. (I know of two friends who had to pay $600 and $3000.)

scandinavegan 9y ago
At least a few years ago in Sweden, all cases where someone had payed a fine for downloading pirated material due to such letters was because the person admitted guilt. The anti-piracy organizations had no way of forcing someone to pay, because none of the evidence would hold up in court. They tried to submit screenshots of IP addresses, but since it's easy to spoof it wasn't enough to convict someone. I don't know if this has changed in recent years, as I haven't heard anything about it recently.
_Codemonkeyism 9y ago
"In Germany, as soon as you start a torrent client, your traffic is being monitored by bots and agents" How is traffic monitored when I start a client? Don't I need to download/upload something to get monitored? Is the monitoring connected to trackers I download from or ISP monitored? "[...] with a heavy fine." Was it a fine or some kind of fee? ("Abmahngebühr")
- wimagguc 9y ago
  I'm not familiar with the German legal system but the sum did depend on what they've uploaded. (It was detailed in the letter, if I remember correctly, $600 for half an episode-of-whatever and $3000 for multiple movies.) As for the traffic monitoring, indeed, I'd imagine it to be honeypot tracker where all content/traffic is visible rather than something installed on the ISP side.
  - JohnStrange 9y ago
    No it's not the tracker, it also works for magnet links and people get letters for downloading. There are companies who join the download swarm and register all other downloading parties. That's very easy with bittorrent, since the protocol is (originally) designed for fast download sharing without any regard to anonymity or pseudonymity.[1] The process is not reliable for providing evidence of copyright infringement, though, and the German system mostly works by scare tactics of lawyers - many people don't want to risk a lawsuit even if they could win it. [1] https://torrentfreak.com/thousands-of-spies-are-watching-trackerless-torrents-151004/ https://torrentfreak.com/thousands-of-spies-are-watching-tra...
    - zaarn 9y ago
      These companies are the scum of the scum, tbh, I recall I once got a letter claiming I must pay about 6000€ for illegally downloading "Debian 5 Linux Netboot ISO" and "Ubuntu 12.04 x86 Full ISO" or something along those lines. They sent some awfully scary letters for what amounts to legally obtaining an ISO file.
      - notzorbo3 9y ago
        I used to run an abandoned warez site when I was young. I received a lot of cease and desist letters from "lawyers". They usually failed to identify the infringing material, failed to show they had the right to act on the copywriters behalf and a staggering amount of them confused trademark infringement with copyright infringement. Also, every last one I received via email. Yeah, right, like that's going to hold up. I ignored all of them and never got even so much as a follow up. In other words, such things are considered low-hanging fruit by these companies. Just throw it out there and see what sticks.
        zaarn 9y ago
        Luckily the german system is less strict than the DMCA, you can fact-check any letters you get, you only need to act if you know (for certain) it's illegal
- Tepix 9y ago
  I think he is saying that there are companies monitoring the trackers.
danielwarna 9y ago
Copyright holders have been sending those kinds of settlement demands in Finland as well. They seem to be monitoring the torrent swarm for relevant IP addresses so that they can demand that ISPs hand over account holder's names. ISP are by law required to hand over this information if the users has shared something illegally to "a significant degree". They settlement demands have been between 500€ and 3000€ and they have usually been lowered in the cases that have gone to court. A few have however ended up footing legal costs in the tens of thousands.
- exDM69 9y ago
  > ISP are by law required to hand over this information if the users has shared something illegally to "a significant degree". ISP's only hand over data by court order but in the past few years, court orders have granted this right to pretty much every request from the copyright holders. ISP's are now contesting this and there were two recent judgements in the courts to allow ISPs not to hand over the data. See this [0] (in Finnish). So the situation is now better in Finland, partially because the predatory abuse from copyright holders' law firms sending out tons of "fines". [0] https://www.turre.com/operaattori-voitti-oikeudenhaltijat-tuomioistuimessa-kuluttaja-ja-yksityisyys-voittivat/ https://www.turre.com/operaattori-voitti-oikeudenhaltijat-tu...
amelius 9y ago
So no Tor exit nodes in Germany, I suppose ...
- zaarn 9y ago
  IIRC there are Tor exit nodes in germany, they also filter some traffic but only on the lowest amount of effort they have to do legally. Ie the usual suspects: illegal porn, illegal torrents (usually also porn) and websites not conforming to strict german industry standards.
  - mrighele 9y ago
    How does the node operator know what traffic should be blocked (i.e. that something is illegal porn or illegal torrent) ? Is there an official source that says for example which website should be blocked and that is enough ?
    - Strom 9y ago
      Unlikely that there is a public list, but a node operator could certainly compile such a list based on angry letters they receive.
      - mrighele 9y ago
        That would be my approach too, but I was wondering if this would be enough to stay out of trouble.
        zaarn 9y ago
        Under german law, yes, notice-and-takedown is basically all you need to adhere to; if you are aware of illegal activities, you must take measures to stop them. (But unlike the DMCA for example, you are allowed to verify any notices thoroughly before taking action, you only have to listen to verified claims)
    - zaarn 9y ago
chrisper 9y ago
In Switzerland piracy for private reasons (non-commercial) is legal!
- LaundroMat 9y ago
  In Belgium, you're allowed to download, but not to upload.
  - chrisper 9y ago
    Hmm... maybe it is like that,too. I'd have to do some research.
    - madez 9y ago
      In Germany downloading is no problem, too. Uploading is what they try to get you for.
  - efdee 9y ago
    Not really. You're allowed to download for personal use from authorized sources. See https://ictrecht.be/featured-2/torrents-wat-mag-en-wat-mag-niet/ https://ictrecht.be/featured-2/torrents-wat-mag-en-wat-mag-n....
    - LaundroMat 9y ago
      Oh, thanks for this update! I had only known about the situation before the Court ruling.

scandinavegan 9y ago

At least a few years ago in Sweden, all cases where someone had payed a fine for downloading pirated material due to such letters was because the person admitted guilt. The anti-piracy organizations had no way of forcing someone to pay, because none of the evidence would hold up in court. They tried to submit screenshots of IP addresses, but since it's easy to spoof it wasn't enough to convict someone. I don't know if this has changed in recent years, as I haven't heard anything about it recently.

_Codemonkeyism 9y ago

"In Germany, as soon as you start a torrent client, your traffic is being monitored by bots and agents" How is traffic monitored when I start a client? Don't I need to download/upload something to get monitored? Is the monitoring connected to trackers I download from or ISP monitored? "[...] with a heavy fine." Was it a fine or some kind of fee? ("Abmahngebühr")

wimagguc 9y ago
I'm not familiar with the German legal system but the sum did depend on what they've uploaded. (It was detailed in the letter, if I remember correctly, $600 for half an episode-of-whatever and $3000 for multiple movies.) As for the traffic monitoring, indeed, I'd imagine it to be honeypot tracker where all content/traffic is visible rather than something installed on the ISP side.
- JohnStrange 9y ago
  No it's not the tracker, it also works for magnet links and people get letters for downloading. There are companies who join the download swarm and register all other downloading parties. That's very easy with bittorrent, since the protocol is (originally) designed for fast download sharing without any regard to anonymity or pseudonymity.[1] The process is not reliable for providing evidence of copyright infringement, though, and the German system mostly works by scare tactics of lawyers - many people don't want to risk a lawsuit even if they could win it. [1] https://torrentfreak.com/thousands-of-spies-are-watching-trackerless-torrents-151004/ https://torrentfreak.com/thousands-of-spies-are-watching-tra...
  - zaarn 9y ago
    These companies are the scum of the scum, tbh, I recall I once got a letter claiming I must pay about 6000€ for illegally downloading "Debian 5 Linux Netboot ISO" and "Ubuntu 12.04 x86 Full ISO" or something along those lines. They sent some awfully scary letters for what amounts to legally obtaining an ISO file.
    - notzorbo3 9y ago
      I used to run an abandoned warez site when I was young. I received a lot of cease and desist letters from "lawyers". They usually failed to identify the infringing material, failed to show they had the right to act on the copywriters behalf and a staggering amount of them confused trademark infringement with copyright infringement. Also, every last one I received via email. Yeah, right, like that's going to hold up. I ignored all of them and never got even so much as a follow up. In other words, such things are considered low-hanging fruit by these companies. Just throw it out there and see what sticks.
      - zaarn 9y ago
        Luckily the german system is less strict than the DMCA, you can fact-check any letters you get, you only need to act if you know (for certain) it's illegal
Tepix 9y ago
I think he is saying that there are companies monitoring the trackers.

danielwarna 9y ago

Copyright holders have been sending those kinds of settlement demands in Finland as well. They seem to be monitoring the torrent swarm for relevant IP addresses so that they can demand that ISPs hand over account holder's names. ISP are by law required to hand over this information if the users has shared something illegally to "a significant degree". They settlement demands have been between 500€ and 3000€ and they have usually been lowered in the cases that have gone to court. A few have however ended up footing legal costs in the tens of thousands.

exDM69 9y ago
> ISP are by law required to hand over this information if the users has shared something illegally to "a significant degree". ISP's only hand over data by court order but in the past few years, court orders have granted this right to pretty much every request from the copyright holders. ISP's are now contesting this and there were two recent judgements in the courts to allow ISPs not to hand over the data. See this [0] (in Finnish). So the situation is now better in Finland, partially because the predatory abuse from copyright holders' law firms sending out tons of "fines". [0] https://www.turre.com/operaattori-voitti-oikeudenhaltijat-tuomioistuimessa-kuluttaja-ja-yksityisyys-voittivat/ https://www.turre.com/operaattori-voitti-oikeudenhaltijat-tu...

amelius 9y ago

So no Tor exit nodes in Germany, I suppose ...

zaarn 9y ago
IIRC there are Tor exit nodes in germany, they also filter some traffic but only on the lowest amount of effort they have to do legally. Ie the usual suspects: illegal porn, illegal torrents (usually also porn) and websites not conforming to strict german industry standards.
- mrighele 9y ago
  How does the node operator know what traffic should be blocked (i.e. that something is illegal porn or illegal torrent) ? Is there an official source that says for example which website should be blocked and that is enough ?
  - Strom 9y ago
    Unlikely that there is a public list, but a node operator could certainly compile such a list based on angry letters they receive.
    - mrighele 9y ago
      That would be my approach too, but I was wondering if this would be enough to stay out of trouble.
      - zaarn 9y ago
        Under german law, yes, notice-and-takedown is basically all you need to adhere to; if you are aware of illegal activities, you must take measures to stop them. (But unlike the DMCA for example, you are allowed to verify any notices thoroughly before taking action, you only have to listen to verified claims)
  - zaarn 9y ago

chrisper 9y ago

In Switzerland piracy for private reasons (non-commercial) is legal!

LaundroMat 9y ago
In Belgium, you're allowed to download, but not to upload.
- chrisper 9y ago
  Hmm... maybe it is like that,too. I'd have to do some research.
  - madez 9y ago
    In Germany downloading is no problem, too. Uploading is what they try to get you for.
- efdee 9y ago
  Not really. You're allowed to download for personal use from authorized sources. See https://ictrecht.be/featured-2/torrents-wat-mag-en-wat-mag-niet/ https://ictrecht.be/featured-2/torrents-wat-mag-en-wat-mag-n....
  - LaundroMat 9y ago
    Oh, thanks for this update! I had only known about the situation before the Court ruling.