4 ms·

no, it is not how normal markets work. a stock, bond, real estate "generates income". that's why it has value. bitcoin does not.

by thkim 9y ago

ravingraven 9y ago
A) Bitoin is not a stock, it's a currency. It'ss value lies in its utility. B) There are (a lot of) stocks that do not pay dividends and never will. There are a lot of stocks that were issued by companies that never made a profit. Both of those categories are traded with a value above zero, how do you explain that?
- glastra 9y ago
  Bitcoin has absolutely no utility as a currency. Look at the current mempool [0] to see why. People then switch to arguing that it's a great store of value. Given its volatility this makes no sense. [0]: https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#24h https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#24h
  - ravingraven 9y ago
    To clarify: Bitcoin is deeply flawed, and I agree with you that Bitcoin is probably worth less than many people speculate it is worth (but not zero). Cryptocurrencies in general have a lot of utility and solve real problems.
    - Cthulhu_ 9y ago
      And yet they introduce a lot of new problems too - problems that have been solved by traditional currencies a while ago. Problems like exchange security and protection to citizens. If my bank goes bankrupt for whatever reason, the government has an insurance for up to 100K for me. When mtgox went down, everyone lost their money.
      - Lunar_Lamp 9y ago
        I'm not sure I agree here. Those are definitely real issues that you've highlighted, but they're not because of crypto currency. There's no reason that a crypto-exchange cannot be as secure as a bank (or more), and that governments cannot insure crypto deposits up to some value. Those are purely problems for regulators/governments, which have been relatively slow to adapt legislation. The problems you highlight are real, and can be good reasons to favour traditional currencies, but they're also easy problems to solve - the thinking has already been done once for traditional currencies and the solutions for crypto are mostly identical.
  - pmorici 9y ago
    Bitcoin Cash fixes that by following the original vision articulated by Satoshi.
    - twayamznacct 9y ago
      Hahaha, you mean the vision where one wealthy elite gets even MORE power than everyone else? I suppose it could be even worse though, it could be the upcoming UB fork.
- paxy 9y ago
  It doesn't matter if a company isn't making a profit. It still has assets - whether physical, intellectual, goodwill, brand, or anything else. If you own stocks in a company you literally own a part of all of these.
  - ravingraven 9y ago
    That would mean that the value of the stock would be decoupled from financial success of the company, which is clearly not the case. A company with very few assets and record profits every quarter will have an expensive stock price.
    - goldbeck 9y ago
      One wonders what they're doing with all those profits then. Seems like they would either reinvest in the company (accumulating assets), put it in the bank (fairly literally accumulating assets), or pay it out to shareholders (perhaps the most straightforward way in which stocks are worth money).
  - Cakez0r 9y ago
    A company may also have debts that outweigh the value of their assets.
- imbeel 9y ago
  B) It's straightforward - those companies are very often bought by other companies (because they have intrinsic value). The buyer purchases all of the shares from the shareholders (usually in cash), which realizes the value of the company.
  - ravingraven 9y ago
    You can say all those things about currency as well. Someone buys it at a certain price (because it has intrinsic value), which realizes the value of the currency.
- thkim 9y ago
  the guy I was replying to was saying a ponzi scheme is how markets work, which is definitely not true. a) this is valid point, but bitcoin is failing currency. if there was a central authority then its value would have been stabilized. never gonna happen with bitcoin. b) expected income. for bitcoin, it's nil for ever. don't confuse investment with speculation.
  - nihonde 9y ago
    You completely mischaracterized my statement. Also, you don’t know what a Ponzi scheme is. I said that early adopters take risks that pay off when conservative investors are looking for safe plays. Seriously, shame on you.
    - thkim 9y ago
      i take back what i said. i apologize. i read it not as a general statement but as a defense on bitcoin. taking risk on something that does not have any income potential and passing it off to late joiners is very essence of ponzi scheme.
      - nihonde 9y ago
        Fair enough. We’re cool, then!
- deadmetheny 9y ago
  >Bitoin is not a stock, it's a currency. It'ss value lies in its utility. hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Bitcoin's current transaction fee is like $20, and the value of Bitcoin itself has gone up 25% in the past week alone. If I bought a pizza last week using $20 worth of Dunning-Krugerrands, that same pizza would be $25 this week for no reason. That alone makes it useless as a currency.
solotronics 9y ago
Amazon stock actually doesn't generate income on purpose for tax reasons. They reinvest almost 100% back into the company and by appreciating the stock price the shareholders and employees get to sell stock and only get hit for capital gains tax. This is almost exactly how Bitcoin works.
- thkim 9y ago
  you are confusing between investment and speculation. buying amazon stock with an outlook for income potential is an investment. buying something that has no way of recouping investment other than capital appreciation is speculation. even if amazon pay zero dividend now, you own something that has potential to pay back to you. bitcoin has no income potential whatsoever.
- imtringued 9y ago
  >This is almost exactly how Bitcoin works. The difference is that if amazon is worth let's say 50 billion and they have 10 billion revenue and 9 billion operating costs then not paying out the excess 1 billion as dividends doesn't mean they magically disappear. A 50 billion company with 1 billion in the bank account is in reality a 51 billion company. When a dividend is paid out the value of the stock is reduced by exactly the amount that is paid out. If the money is used to buy more delivery infrastructure (trucks, buildings) the value of the stock remains the same. From the perspective of a share holder who can sell his shares to someone else nothing has changed. You either have 50€ worth of stock plus 1€ or 51€ worth of stock. With bitcoin there is no revenue that can be paid out or be invested. If bitcoin goes "bankrupt" what assets can you liquidate to obtain at least a fraction of it's value? How does it work?

no, it is not how normal markets work. a stock, bond, real estate "generates income". that's why it has value. bitcoin does not.

by thkim 9y ago

no, it is not how normal markets work. a stock, bond, real estate "generates income". that's why it has value. bitcoin does not.

ravingraven 9y ago

A) Bitoin is not a stock, it's a currency. It'ss value lies in its utility. B) There are (a lot of) stocks that do not pay dividends and never will. There are a lot of stocks that were issued by companies that never made a profit. Both of those categories are traded with a value above zero, how do you explain that?

glastra 9y ago
Bitcoin has absolutely no utility as a currency. Look at the current mempool [0] to see why. People then switch to arguing that it's a great store of value. Given its volatility this makes no sense. [0]: https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#24h https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#24h
- ravingraven 9y ago
  To clarify: Bitcoin is deeply flawed, and I agree with you that Bitcoin is probably worth less than many people speculate it is worth (but not zero). Cryptocurrencies in general have a lot of utility and solve real problems.
  - Cthulhu_ 9y ago
    And yet they introduce a lot of new problems too - problems that have been solved by traditional currencies a while ago. Problems like exchange security and protection to citizens. If my bank goes bankrupt for whatever reason, the government has an insurance for up to 100K for me. When mtgox went down, everyone lost their money.
    - Lunar_Lamp 9y ago
      I'm not sure I agree here. Those are definitely real issues that you've highlighted, but they're not because of crypto currency. There's no reason that a crypto-exchange cannot be as secure as a bank (or more), and that governments cannot insure crypto deposits up to some value. Those are purely problems for regulators/governments, which have been relatively slow to adapt legislation. The problems you highlight are real, and can be good reasons to favour traditional currencies, but they're also easy problems to solve - the thinking has already been done once for traditional currencies and the solutions for crypto are mostly identical.
- pmorici 9y ago
  Bitcoin Cash fixes that by following the original vision articulated by Satoshi.
  - twayamznacct 9y ago
    Hahaha, you mean the vision where one wealthy elite gets even MORE power than everyone else? I suppose it could be even worse though, it could be the upcoming UB fork.
paxy 9y ago
It doesn't matter if a company isn't making a profit. It still has assets - whether physical, intellectual, goodwill, brand, or anything else. If you own stocks in a company you literally own a part of all of these.
- ravingraven 9y ago
  That would mean that the value of the stock would be decoupled from financial success of the company, which is clearly not the case. A company with very few assets and record profits every quarter will have an expensive stock price.
  - goldbeck 9y ago
    One wonders what they're doing with all those profits then. Seems like they would either reinvest in the company (accumulating assets), put it in the bank (fairly literally accumulating assets), or pay it out to shareholders (perhaps the most straightforward way in which stocks are worth money).
- Cakez0r 9y ago
  A company may also have debts that outweigh the value of their assets.
imbeel 9y ago
B) It's straightforward - those companies are very often bought by other companies (because they have intrinsic value). The buyer purchases all of the shares from the shareholders (usually in cash), which realizes the value of the company.
- ravingraven 9y ago
  You can say all those things about currency as well. Someone buys it at a certain price (because it has intrinsic value), which realizes the value of the currency.
thkim 9y ago
the guy I was replying to was saying a ponzi scheme is how markets work, which is definitely not true. a) this is valid point, but bitcoin is failing currency. if there was a central authority then its value would have been stabilized. never gonna happen with bitcoin. b) expected income. for bitcoin, it's nil for ever. don't confuse investment with speculation.
- nihonde 9y ago
  You completely mischaracterized my statement. Also, you don’t know what a Ponzi scheme is. I said that early adopters take risks that pay off when conservative investors are looking for safe plays. Seriously, shame on you.
  - thkim 9y ago
    i take back what i said. i apologize. i read it not as a general statement but as a defense on bitcoin. taking risk on something that does not have any income potential and passing it off to late joiners is very essence of ponzi scheme.
    - nihonde 9y ago
      Fair enough. We’re cool, then!
deadmetheny 9y ago
>Bitoin is not a stock, it's a currency. It'ss value lies in its utility. hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Bitcoin's current transaction fee is like $20, and the value of Bitcoin itself has gone up 25% in the past week alone. If I bought a pizza last week using $20 worth of Dunning-Krugerrands, that same pizza would be $25 this week for no reason. That alone makes it useless as a currency.

solotronics 9y ago

Amazon stock actually doesn't generate income on purpose for tax reasons. They reinvest almost 100% back into the company and by appreciating the stock price the shareholders and employees get to sell stock and only get hit for capital gains tax. This is almost exactly how Bitcoin works.

thkim 9y ago
you are confusing between investment and speculation. buying amazon stock with an outlook for income potential is an investment. buying something that has no way of recouping investment other than capital appreciation is speculation. even if amazon pay zero dividend now, you own something that has potential to pay back to you. bitcoin has no income potential whatsoever.
imtringued 9y ago
>This is almost exactly how Bitcoin works. The difference is that if amazon is worth let's say 50 billion and they have 10 billion revenue and 9 billion operating costs then not paying out the excess 1 billion as dividends doesn't mean they magically disappear. A 50 billion company with 1 billion in the bank account is in reality a 51 billion company. When a dividend is paid out the value of the stock is reduced by exactly the amount that is paid out. If the money is used to buy more delivery infrastructure (trucks, buildings) the value of the stock remains the same. From the perspective of a share holder who can sell his shares to someone else nothing has changed. You either have 50€ worth of stock plus 1€ or 51€ worth of stock. With bitcoin there is no revenue that can be paid out or be invested. If bitcoin goes "bankrupt" what assets can you liquidate to obtain at least a fraction of it's value? How does it work?