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The UBI debate is fundamental to how we perceive society and what kind of society we want to build into the future. If one's idea of human society is people wo

by tobbyb 9y ago

The UBI debate is fundamental to how we perceive society and what kind of society we want to build into the future. If one's idea of human society is people working to earn money. Fullstop. And those who are better at it are the be all and end alls of human civilization and progress and the ultimate aspiration. Then words like lazy, people will not do anything, arguments that are generic enough to block any action, and are actually red herrings enter the debate. This seems to be a pretty impoverished view of humanity. But one that our current capitalist system necessitates, The other way is thinking of the billions of brains wasted every generation just trying to survive, exactly what humans did 2000 years ago. Now imagine if all these brains could be freed and god knows how much innovation, progress and intellectual output can be unlocked into a completely different kind of society. That's a vision. But the reality is many will stick doggedly to the personal wealth and achievement mantra and because of the disproportionate influence of wealth and entrenched interests in our societies right from feudalism to now, and UBI or any such fanciful idea will be sabotaged and blocked.

danenania 9y ago
The "laziness" issue is such a distraction. If some percentage of UBI recipients sit on their couches all day, that's perfectly fine. 1 - These weren't the people who were going to move our economy and society forward in the first place. 2 - It's better if they sit on the couch and have their needs met than having them turn to violence or fueling the rise of the next Hitler. That's what will happen if we take away a huge number of people's jobs via automation and give them nothing to fill the gap.
- tmh79 9y ago
  3) its much worse if they use their newfound free time and available resources to do things that actively harm society
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- jimmywanger 9y ago
  Wow, going to Hitler already? The people who were going to move our economy and society forward are not the motivated ones. A fire needs to be lit under their asses. What else are they entitled to for _no_ effort? If they weren't going to benefit our society at all and might be a detriment, a round of ammunition costs far less than UBI.
dahdum 9y ago
"The other way is thinking of the billions of brains wasted every generation just trying to survive, exactly what humans did 2000 years ago. Now imagine if all these brains could be freed and god knows how much innovation, progress and intellectual output can be unlocked into a completely different kind of society. That's a vision." It's not so cut and dry. I don't believe that incentives under UBI will lead to greater innovation. I see it as wonderful gift to the most intelligent and self motivated, while killing the incentives to achieve anything for so many others. I grew up in a poor rural area and have seen many examples of what guaranteed monthly checks does to ambition. I believe kids growing up in the inevitable "UBI communities" will be trapped even more strongly than in disadvantaged communities now. My objection is not about taxes or wealth distribution, but the ethics of giving millions such a choice, much less making it the "default" one.
- eanzenberg 9y ago
  I think the people who would agree with you are the ones who see this firsthand. The people who back UBI generally live in a bubble or see things from an ivory tower.
  - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
    I'm not sure, there are a lot of perverse incentives in the welfare system in the UK, I assume they exist in the US as well. If you replace it with a system where the benefits don't disappear when you start work then there is more of an incentive to work. The main problem I see is most people promoting it want to set it so high that the figures just don't add up.
    - eanzenberg 9y ago
      That's my current biggest problem with UBI. We are not even close to post-scarce.
- firethief 9y ago
  > what guaranteed monthly checks does to ambition Do you think it's a coincidence that that check is only guaranteed in the absence of ambition? You've seen the perverse incentives of means-tested welfare, not the effects of a UBI.
eanzenberg 9y ago
No it's even more basic then that. There are two competing theories for humanity. One is, do you have faith in society and the peoples of that society? The other, do you not have faith in society and the peoples of it? Many of the human-made constructs in our world were defined as a stop-gap for the lowest depths of humanity. Certain people are extremely selfish, narcissistic, care only for themselves? We have some laws to combat that such as taxes, environmental protections, etc. Certain people are violent? We have some laws to combat that and gone to war against that. So you need to ask yourself, do you have faith that UBI will "free brains enough to produce innovation, progress, and further intellectual output", or lead to massive work reduction, increased prices, and increased complacency?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- tonyedgecombe 9y ago
  Reality is never as black and white as that.
  - eanzenberg 9y ago
    It kind of is, and you can see how real-world countries behave when pushed more towards the UBI end-goal. You can then figure out whether to put faith in society or not.
- akvadrako 9y ago
  > So you need to ask yourself, do you have faith that UBI will "free brains enough to produce innovation, progress, and further intellectual output", or lead to massive work reduction, increased prices, and increased complacency? You don't need to know that yet. As long as you accept that work for the sake of work is not the purpose of life, you can study UBI to see how people behave.
  - eanzenberg 9y ago
    >>As long as you accept that work for the sake of work is not the purpose of life But I don't accept that! And I doubt I'm not alone in this country. I believe that you are the work you do. If you spend the majority of time doing it, then that's who you are and you should own it and be proud of it.
dgudkov 9y ago
>Now imagine if all these brains could be freed and god knows how much innovation, progress and intellectual output can be unlocked into a completely different kind of society. This may sound cynical, but those who can actually deliver innovation, progress and intellectual output of a meaningful magnitude are already doing pretty well. To a big extent, because they can be determined and can work hard. Most people (myself included) are rather mediocre and have no capacity to advance the society beyond its current, rather advanced state.
- pixelbill 9y ago
  This is the classic bad argument of "determination and hard work" are the only means of success, falsely insinuating that anyone not successful simply just didn't work hard enough. Back here in reality, you have lots of rich people who haven't worked hard a day in their life, who are incredibly successful by the genetic lottery of being born into wealth. If you have money, you don't have to work hard.. your money works for you. Those on the bottom are the hardest workers, because they have to. Their lives are wasted because they didn't win the lottery of wealth, and struggle simply to survive every day. Imagine the quality of life increase if we took away that feeling of your very survival being at risk every single day..
- Mithaldu 9y ago
  You have a very valid answer from pixelbill, who seems to be shadowbanned. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15919850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15919850
ramblerman 9y ago
I'm a proponent of UBI, but this Utopian kind of vision is naive at best. The power of UBI is that it solves the immediate problem that many jobs will disappear, and with modern technology people shouldn't be starving. But it keeps the tried and tested incentive-based capitalism underneath. Perhaps one day mankind will evolve to a utopian state, but in the intermediate to long term we absolutely are still capable of great selfishness, laziness, and ready to take any shortcut to advance our own goals.
fuzzfactor 9y ago
It is easy for some of us to remember what it was like 40 years ago when SF rose to become the US center of non-capitalism at the time. The Grateful Dead were local musicians who gained more widespread popularity whether every one of them wanted it or not, especially once they signed a record deal with a capitalist outfit that could advertise and promote in ways that the musicians could not or would not do on their own. As the purported leader of the band, Jerry Garcia for one indicated that he was soon earning more income than he really needed, and having a strong balance toward benevolence over greed, set out to give 1000 dollars each to numerous individuals who without a doubt were truly in need of the funds. A thousand dollars really would go a lot further then compared to a short 10 years later once the devastating devaluation of the US dollar was set into motion after it was unlinked to a universally appreciated natural resource (gold). Anyway, turns out that before too long it was determined that it was costing twelve hundred dollars to give away each thousand, and the program ended up grinding to a halt.
badwulf 9y ago
> The UBI debate is fundamental to how we perceive society and what kind of society we want to build into the future. Right now it's only fundamental to the minority of HNers who can't stop talking about it. > If one's idea of human society is people working to earn money. Fullstop. We don't work for money, we work for value, I do my part and in return, I'll get food shelter, protection by the police, roads etc. > This seems to be a pretty impoverished view of humanity. Requiring people to do their part for the group as a whole is an impoverished view of humanity? > Then words like lazy Yes, that is what you call a person who refuses to work, yet probably expects the fruit of other people's labour and yes, that's UBI in a nutshell. > But one that our current capitalist system necessitates, And by capitalist you mean all systems that we have tried so far. > The other way is thinking of the billions of brains wasted every generation just trying to survive, exactly what humans did 2000 years ago. Survival is just as important to us now as it was 2000 years ago, you are also overlooking the fact that we are getting better and better at it. > Now imagine if all these brains could be freed and god knows how much innovation, progress and intellectual output can be unlocked into a completely different kind of society. That's a vision. It's not a vision, it's just ignorance about the huge progress that we made as a species. > But the reality is many will stick doggedly to the personal wealth and achievement mantra and because of the disproportionate influence of wealth and entrenched interests in our societies right from feudalism to now, and UBI or any such fanciful idea will be sabotaged and blocked. The reality is: we want stuff. The more value we provide to society, the more stuff we get in return. For you to be able to give me free stuff means that somebody was happy to produce that stuff without getting anything in return, I believe the term for that is slavery.

by tobbyb 9y ago

danenania 9y ago

The "laziness" issue is such a distraction. If some percentage of UBI recipients sit on their couches all day, that's perfectly fine. 1 - These weren't the people who were going to move our economy and society forward in the first place. 2 - It's better if they sit on the couch and have their needs met than having them turn to violence or fueling the rise of the next Hitler. That's what will happen if we take away a huge number of people's jobs via automation and give them nothing to fill the gap.

tmh79 9y ago
3) its much worse if they use their newfound free time and available resources to do things that actively harm society
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
jimmywanger 9y ago
Wow, going to Hitler already? The people who were going to move our economy and society forward are not the motivated ones. A fire needs to be lit under their asses. What else are they entitled to for _no_ effort? If they weren't going to benefit our society at all and might be a detriment, a round of ammunition costs far less than UBI.

dahdum 9y ago

"The other way is thinking of the billions of brains wasted every generation just trying to survive, exactly what humans did 2000 years ago. Now imagine if all these brains could be freed and god knows how much innovation, progress and intellectual output can be unlocked into a completely different kind of society. That's a vision." It's not so cut and dry. I don't believe that incentives under UBI will lead to greater innovation. I see it as wonderful gift to the most intelligent and self motivated, while killing the incentives to achieve anything for so many others. I grew up in a poor rural area and have seen many examples of what guaranteed monthly checks does to ambition. I believe kids growing up in the inevitable "UBI communities" will be trapped even more strongly than in disadvantaged communities now. My objection is not about taxes or wealth distribution, but the ethics of giving millions such a choice, much less making it the "default" one.

eanzenberg 9y ago
I think the people who would agree with you are the ones who see this firsthand. The people who back UBI generally live in a bubble or see things from an ivory tower.
- tonyedgecombe 9y ago
  I'm not sure, there are a lot of perverse incentives in the welfare system in the UK, I assume they exist in the US as well. If you replace it with a system where the benefits don't disappear when you start work then there is more of an incentive to work. The main problem I see is most people promoting it want to set it so high that the figures just don't add up.
  - eanzenberg 9y ago
    That's my current biggest problem with UBI. We are not even close to post-scarce.
firethief 9y ago
> what guaranteed monthly checks does to ambition Do you think it's a coincidence that that check is only guaranteed in the absence of ambition? You've seen the perverse incentives of means-tested welfare, not the effects of a UBI.

eanzenberg 9y ago

No it's even more basic then that. There are two competing theories for humanity. One is, do you have faith in society and the peoples of that society? The other, do you not have faith in society and the peoples of it? Many of the human-made constructs in our world were defined as a stop-gap for the lowest depths of humanity. Certain people are extremely selfish, narcissistic, care only for themselves? We have some laws to combat that such as taxes, environmental protections, etc. Certain people are violent? We have some laws to combat that and gone to war against that. So you need to ask yourself, do you have faith that UBI will "free brains enough to produce innovation, progress, and further intellectual output", or lead to massive work reduction, increased prices, and increased complacency?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
tonyedgecombe 9y ago
Reality is never as black and white as that.
- eanzenberg 9y ago
  It kind of is, and you can see how real-world countries behave when pushed more towards the UBI end-goal. You can then figure out whether to put faith in society or not.
akvadrako 9y ago
> So you need to ask yourself, do you have faith that UBI will "free brains enough to produce innovation, progress, and further intellectual output", or lead to massive work reduction, increased prices, and increased complacency? You don't need to know that yet. As long as you accept that work for the sake of work is not the purpose of life, you can study UBI to see how people behave.
- eanzenberg 9y ago
  >>As long as you accept that work for the sake of work is not the purpose of life But I don't accept that! And I doubt I'm not alone in this country. I believe that you are the work you do. If you spend the majority of time doing it, then that's who you are and you should own it and be proud of it.

dgudkov 9y ago

>Now imagine if all these brains could be freed and god knows how much innovation, progress and intellectual output can be unlocked into a completely different kind of society. This may sound cynical, but those who can actually deliver innovation, progress and intellectual output of a meaningful magnitude are already doing pretty well. To a big extent, because they can be determined and can work hard. Most people (myself included) are rather mediocre and have no capacity to advance the society beyond its current, rather advanced state.

pixelbill 9y ago
This is the classic bad argument of "determination and hard work" are the only means of success, falsely insinuating that anyone not successful simply just didn't work hard enough. Back here in reality, you have lots of rich people who haven't worked hard a day in their life, who are incredibly successful by the genetic lottery of being born into wealth. If you have money, you don't have to work hard.. your money works for you. Those on the bottom are the hardest workers, because they have to. Their lives are wasted because they didn't win the lottery of wealth, and struggle simply to survive every day. Imagine the quality of life increase if we took away that feeling of your very survival being at risk every single day..
Mithaldu 9y ago
You have a very valid answer from pixelbill, who seems to be shadowbanned. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15919850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15919850

ramblerman 9y ago

I'm a proponent of UBI, but this Utopian kind of vision is naive at best. The power of UBI is that it solves the immediate problem that many jobs will disappear, and with modern technology people shouldn't be starving. But it keeps the tried and tested incentive-based capitalism underneath. Perhaps one day mankind will evolve to a utopian state, but in the intermediate to long term we absolutely are still capable of great selfishness, laziness, and ready to take any shortcut to advance our own goals.

fuzzfactor 9y ago

It is easy for some of us to remember what it was like 40 years ago when SF rose to become the US center of non-capitalism at the time. The Grateful Dead were local musicians who gained more widespread popularity whether every one of them wanted it or not, especially once they signed a record deal with a capitalist outfit that could advertise and promote in ways that the musicians could not or would not do on their own. As the purported leader of the band, Jerry Garcia for one indicated that he was soon earning more income than he really needed, and having a strong balance toward benevolence over greed, set out to give 1000 dollars each to numerous individuals who without a doubt were truly in need of the funds. A thousand dollars really would go a lot further then compared to a short 10 years later once the devastating devaluation of the US dollar was set into motion after it was unlinked to a universally appreciated natural resource (gold). Anyway, turns out that before too long it was determined that it was costing twelve hundred dollars to give away each thousand, and the program ended up grinding to a halt.

badwulf 9y ago

> The UBI debate is fundamental to how we perceive society and what kind of society we want to build into the future. Right now it's only fundamental to the minority of HNers who can't stop talking about it. > If one's idea of human society is people working to earn money. Fullstop. We don't work for money, we work for value, I do my part and in return, I'll get food shelter, protection by the police, roads etc. > This seems to be a pretty impoverished view of humanity. Requiring people to do their part for the group as a whole is an impoverished view of humanity? > Then words like lazy Yes, that is what you call a person who refuses to work, yet probably expects the fruit of other people's labour and yes, that's UBI in a nutshell. > But one that our current capitalist system necessitates, And by capitalist you mean all systems that we have tried so far. > The other way is thinking of the billions of brains wasted every generation just trying to survive, exactly what humans did 2000 years ago. Survival is just as important to us now as it was 2000 years ago, you are also overlooking the fact that we are getting better and better at it. > Now imagine if all these brains could be freed and god knows how much innovation, progress and intellectual output can be unlocked into a completely different kind of society. That's a vision. It's not a vision, it's just ignorance about the huge progress that we made as a species. > But the reality is many will stick doggedly to the personal wealth and achievement mantra and because of the disproportionate influence of wealth and entrenched interests in our societies right from feudalism to now, and UBI or any such fanciful idea will be sabotaged and blocked. The reality is: we want stuff. The more value we provide to society, the more stuff we get in return. For you to be able to give me free stuff means that somebody was happy to produce that stuff without getting anything in return, I believe the term for that is slavery.