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This thread's audience is obviously a 'developed nations' one. From our perspective yes, Crytpo's use case as currency make absolutely no sense (yet), we tap

This thread's audience is obviously a 'developed nations' one. From our perspective yes, Crytpo's use case as currency make absolutely no sense (yet), we tap our Visa card to pay instantly with no fees and no fraud liability, hard to beat. As a store of value however there is a very strong use case in the western world. Of the top my head, it is estimated that 10% of our GDP is in off shore havens, think about that infamous 1% moving just half of that 10% into Bitcoin .. I digress.. If you venture your mind a little outside the borders of our empire and think about the 'unbanked' parts of our planet, entire populations whom live under poverty for the sole reason that they do not have access to the equity and efficient markets directly. If you look there, people are DYING for something like Bitcoin and other crypto's. There is absolutely no reason an African farmer to have to sell his Oranges to Europe in Euro then buy it back from there (Sell Euro to local currency) for local use. Currency is an abstraction, an expression of a market, just like language is. Here we tap to pay and need everyone to protect us from fraudsters, pornographers, money laundry , <insert your favorite horse man of the apolocyple here>, in other parts of the world , that far out number the western world in population, they don't care to be protected by the above because quite frankly the price they pay for that 'protection' is insanely oppressive governments that use the above to legitimize the oppression. It is exactly in those markets where you start to see a VERY stong use case as both store of value and currency for crypto and it is exactly that market that will drive the world's demand for good UI for crypto that will eventually usher in mass adoption.

qzervaas 9y ago
No fees? Visa and MasterCard are making off like bandits as we move from cash to card.
- xioxox 9y ago
  Interchange fees are restricted to 0.2% (debit cards) and 0.3% (credit cards) in Europe now.
- zMiller 9y ago
  haha, depends on the card you agree to sign off to :)
  - xigency 9y ago
    Try selling something on ebay and see how much money you get back.
    - zMiller 9y ago
      Now try sending some of that money to a third world country and see how much they get between the fees they pay western union and the thugs waiting outside to 'tax' you. From sale to end point .. where'd my money go ? lol
  - readams 9y ago
    the merchant is paying 3-5% plus transaction fees for each transaction. It's hidden from you, but you're paying for it.
  - diab0lic 9y ago
    No, it does not depend on which card you're using. Everything costs a few percentage points more because of fees for the merchant. You pay this no matter what card you're using. They don't offer you a different price for using a specific card, though a handful do for using cash (gasoline comes to mind).
    - geofft 9y ago
      Sure, but merchants can generally get fees that are only slightly higher than what you get in cash back. Square charges a 2.75% fee (and some of that goes to Square, presumably), and there are 2% cash back cards with no annual fee easily available (I use the Citi Double Cash one). So even if your store is raising prices by 2.75%, you're effective price only goes up by about .7%. If you want to get upset, get upset at how if you have poor credit, you're not eligible for these cards, so really this is credit card companies stealing from poor people.
- nwah1 9y ago
  Credit cards aren't an apples-to-apples comparison because of the risk to banks of default. An apples to apples comparison is ACH, which is free, and now same-day service is available.
bllguo 9y ago
Africa is actually more sophisticated than the US in many ways regarding fintech Anyway, this is a straw man. Who is saying cryptos are useless? People are saying that they are a bubble, that the valuations are irrational.
- zMiller 9y ago
  Totally Kenya's mobile payment system evolution from SMSing minute refill codes, to an actual legally recognized form of payment is the original Blockchain in my mind :) But that is exactly my point, in that market , there is demand and need for innovation that means crypto (while inflated right now) is here to stay. People who call Bitcoin a 'Ponzi scheme' , type of plant or apply whatever reduction on a very complex and innovative product are just mind boggling to me.
  - TheDong 9y ago
    > People who call Bitcoin a 'Ponzi scheme' , type of plant or apply whatever reduction on a very complex and innovative product are just mind boggling to me. You are mind-boggled because you have created a strawman; a caricature of what the "bitcoin non-believer" looks like. Your mind would be less boggled if you accepted that there are valid points on both sides in this case. People who question bitcoin's current valuation or utility often have valid points, but if you immediately interpret their points to be as extreme as possible, of course they're mind boggling. Similarly, people who are bullish on bitcoin often have good points and sound reasoning, but it's quite easy to also paint them with a brush which makes their positions and points mind boggling as well. It's good to have some empathy and to actually listen, especially when it's about subjects that are so divisive. The most divisive things are the things that should least be divided further by constantly misrepresenting each side's points.
    - zMiller 9y ago
      You are absolutely right. Again my comment was directed at : > People who call Bitcoin a 'Ponzi scheme' , type of plant or apply whatever reduction on a very complex and innovative product. Not at the one's who are raising very valid red flags on valuation and how hot the market is becoming. In my personal opinion it is absolutely 'bubble' like behavior right now. And i believe we both echo the same sentiment.
riku_iki 9y ago
> we tap our Visa card to pay instantly with no fees I guess it's businesses, who pay high enough fees on your transactions.
- geofft 9y ago
  The current Bitcoin transaction fee is $20+. Credit card processors charge you under 3%. If you're doing transactions of under about $700 USD, credit card fees are cheaper than Bitcoin fees.
  - vkou 9y ago
    Credit card processors also pay the user of the CC a cashback on a significant portion of that fee... And are also liable for fraud. Who do I chargeback when an online merchant takes my BTC, and doesn't ship the goods I bought? BitPay will tell me to pound sand. VISA will process a chargeback, no questions asked.
    - a_tractor 9y ago
      Good problems to solve in this space.
      - vkou 9y ago
        By creating an off-chain payment processor called BISA, and we're back to charging merchants fees for cashback + fraud losses, except now we're for some stupid reason doing it on a blockchain.
        a_tractor 9y ago
        Wow. Its like you have no imagination at all and your thinking is confined to a prison of pessimism and failure. Thanks for sharing! The best thing I could say to you is that you need to do less talking about stuff you clearly know nothing about, and far more research. No offense.
  - 9y ago
amckenna 9y ago
Yup, that's why Dash coin has partnered with KuvaCash to help fight inflation and provide easier access to funds in Zimbabwe - https://www.dash.org/2017/11/23/KuvaCash.html https://www.dash.org/2017/11/23/KuvaCash.html It'll be an interesting test case for the value cryptocurrencies can provide in third world countries.
KasianFranks 9y ago
Well said.
baby 9y ago
> Crytpo's use case as currency make absolutely no sense Note that calling cryptocurrencies "crypto" doesn't make much sense either.
johnwheeler 9y ago
> Of the top my head, it is estimated that 10% of our GDP is in off shore havens, think about that infamous 1% moving just half of that 10% into Bitcoin .. The IRS would crack down on this as with any other tax avoidance scheme. Offshore havens are probably safer since many rely on loopholes.
- millermp12 9y ago
  Sure, but much of this depends on BTC exchanged for fiat. I suspect that if governments really try to put their foot down, they will inadvertently fuel a shadow economy similar to how failed states try to set an official FX rate.
- starlust2 9y ago
  More so that argument relies on magic thinking. Unless there's good reason to believe that bitcoin will be the goto for tax avoidance it's just wishful thinking. If just 0.000000001% of all astroids made of solid platinum land in my back yard I'll be a gazillionaire!
- gamblor956 9y ago
  We have information disclosure treaties with all of the offshore havens, re FATCA. They were actually the first targets and they acquiesced almost immediately. If you're trying to hide assets, the U.S. is the place to be, as none of our treaties actually require us to share information back with the rest of the world.
and0 9y ago
But wouldn't transaction fees, which are already really rough for people making a first-world salary, be even more unsustainable if that fee is a whole day's wage (or more) in the places you're describing? And how would those areas of the world have that level of connectivity? e: for making a huge sale of crops or something to another nation, then 1 transaction fee is not bad compared converting at a %, but you'd still need to convert from Bitcoin to a local currency to actually use the money you made.
joe_the_user 9y ago
The average "unbanked" person in a third world nation couldn't afford a $20 transaction fee for their ordinary transactions. But bitcoin certainly looks like a way for some portion of this group to protect their capital since it's not controlled by states want capital controls. Of course, there's a reason third world countries want capital controls - a lot of the people seeking to export capital are corrupt non-owning possessors of resources. Just as an example, whatever rank administrators within state oil companies and such who want to take things that actually belong to the nations - because such nations have rather weak administrative classes (not that the US isn't moving closer to "kleptocracy" itself). So everywhere, bitcoin certainly looks like a device for protecting value - except once all the money that wants to move in has moved, then bitcoin's lack of actual practical use (see $20 fees) will make it not terribly valuable and all that money in it will be at a bit of risk. Plus, phone-based money systems already are coming/in Africa. They solve the ordinary transaction problem. The problem of "how do you get money out of X currency or resource" isn't a logistics problem, it's a power-struggle. The reason Y person is fighting to get money out of X currency is Z person wants to stop that happening. But overall, remember neither Y nor Z are likely to be less than fully corrupt.
- zMiller 9y ago
  Spot on. Use as currency for Bitcoin (and other coin networks) is still in it's infancy and cannot scale the way it needs to should it want to replace fiat. The important distinction I would draw though that stores of value have historically been cumbersome to transport and liquidate, Bitcoin solves that problem in a very good way. I feel it's important to also address this 20$ bitcoin fee meme that seems to be going around. While based in truth it is not 100% accurate. You have the capacity to set your own txn fee on the Bitcoin network. If you don't mind waiting a couple of blocks (1-3 hours) to get your transaction confirmed , then the fees fall down to single dollars and even lower. If you're selling a bulk commodity to a distributor in another market , you don't need ecommerce style confirmation times. Same goes for transferring large sums of wealth. With that said, things like the lightning network will resolve alot of issues with Bitcoin scaling and in my (humble) opinion this is why LTC is pumping. (Atomic swap + Transfer over LTC )
bufferoverflow 9y ago
> "we tap our Visa card to pay instantly with no fees" That's just not true, these fees are baked into the prices, since the seller pays them. That's one of the reason cryptocurrencies are advantageous in the long run, they can eventually provide the transaction fees close to what they cost in electricity and infrastructure amortization - pretty much sub-penny to transfer any amount.
zodiac 9y ago
> we tap our Visa card to pay instantly with no fees I hope you mean realize that merchants eat the fee and are contractually not allowed to offer discounts for cash payments. And many of them are not happy about this situation.
- GalacticDomin8r 9y ago
  It's an economic compromise. They don't have to be happy about it, just sign the agreement. Or don't and forgo those customers who will only pay that way. I doubt cypto currency is going to help that setup at all, and most likely it will just offer more avenues to do the same.
- nrhk 9y ago
  Yup, and that liability consumers are protected from? Merchants pay that back in chargebacks and chargeback fees.
- tpolzer 9y ago
  The solution to this is way easier than blockchain: Just regulate them. Personal credit card fees in the EU are capped at 0.3% and everybody is better off.
  - mr_spothawk 9y ago
    > The solution to this is way easier than blockchain: Just regulate them. Regulation is not easier. I & my merchant can use blockchain today, without any permission or buy-in from a regulatory body. This is an example of automation taking a job. As an engineer and small(er, more efficient, more effective, more fair, more predictable) government enthusiast, it thrills me to see that we're automating away the jobs of bankers and regulators around the world.
  - zodiac 9y ago
    I think the necessity for regulation shows that unregulated payment processors leads to market failure (due to the nature of that market under current non-blockchain tech). Regulatuon fixes this market failure, but I see regulation as a last resort due to its being a high overhead solution (you rely on courts to interpret the regulations or check the statutory agencies, on the agencies to do their work, on lawmakers to keep the laws up to date). Of course, it is an open question as to whether blockchain tech can lead to the payment processor market not to suffer from market failure if unregulated.
oreo81 9y ago
Visa actually has charge fees of 1.5%-2.5%....
oreo81 9y ago
Visa has charge fees of 1.5%-2.5%...
majani 9y ago
Kenya is the global leader in mobile money adoption for the same reasons you've stated. Smart money should be preaching the crypto gospel in Somalia, Zimbabwe, Venezuela etc. The average citizen from such countries is way more in tune with the need for alternative currencies
stordoff 9y ago
> From our perspective yes, Crytpo's use case as currency make absolutely no sense (yet), we tap our Visa card to pay instantly with no fees and no fraud liability, hard to beat. Fees that are absorbed by the merchant, so not an entirely fair comparison. Still, I agree that the fees make the use cases for cryptocurrenies very limited personally. Right now, I can pay a fee to a third-party (CC fees in the form of slightly higher priced goods) BUT that third-party takes on a significant part of the liability (e.g. for goods not provided), and I can transfer money to a trusted (or untrusted providing I am OK with the risk) party in the same country for ZERO fees via my bank. For those use cases, using most cryptocurrenies would be strictly worse (I either give up the fraud protection or I am paying an unnecessary fee). The only case where it makes sense is for international transfers, which typically do have higher bank fees, but personally they are so rare (I've used it once in the past decade) that they are barely worth considering for my personal use cases.
rohit2412 9y ago
Clearly a "first-worlder" view. People in (most) oppressive regimes are not looking to move off their currencies, and nobody is looking for a decentralized solution for banking. M-pesa, Vodafone money, mobile wallets work great for people. There's no reason for costly decentralization that Bitcoin offers. Maybe a case could be made for Venezuela where bolivars are useless, but USD is a far better candidate for their currency needs that Bitcoin, given how volatile Bitcoin is.
TheCoelacanth 9y ago
It seems to me like bitcoin is more comparable to a wire transfer than to the other forms . Like a wire transfer, but unlike nearly every other form of digital payment (credit card, debit card, ACH), it is irrevocable. It's fees are also competitive with the $20+ that sending a wire transfer will cost. That would make it something of a niche form of payment compared to say credit cards. You aren't going to use it to pay for a cup of coffee, but there still are trillions of dollars worth of wire transfers per day. That is roughly one thousand times the amount currently transacted per day in bitcoin at the current valuation so even taking over a tiny portion of the wire transfer market would justify bitcoin's current valuation.
petre 9y ago
BTC is used in Zimbawe, which would hardly classify as a developed nation.
tripzilch 9y ago
> think about that infamous 1% moving just half of that 10% into Bitcoin .. Please remember "that infamous 1%" is actually the 0.001% or much less. The top 1% income actually includes dentists, successful software engineers, etc. Normal successful people. An amount of wealth that can actually be attained regardless where you came from, given luck, talent, luck and in some cases, hard work[0]. The phrase "the 1%" was originally introduced to draw a line between people with such a ridiculous amount of wealth that it doesn't make sense and is really only attainable by being born in it, or being born with very rich family and learning the shibboleth over your lifetime. Becoming insanely wealthy by an insane stroke of luck is possibly but it only gets you in contact with this elite, not "in", but if you play your cards right your children might. [0] don't be mistaken that "hard work" is any kind of predictor for wealth. just look around you. hard work may be considered virtuous, but that's it. it's not like "being a good person" gets you rich, either.

qzervaas 9y ago

No fees? Visa and MasterCard are making off like bandits as we move from cash to card.

xioxox 9y ago
Interchange fees are restricted to 0.2% (debit cards) and 0.3% (credit cards) in Europe now.
zMiller 9y ago
haha, depends on the card you agree to sign off to :)
- xigency 9y ago
  Try selling something on ebay and see how much money you get back.
  - zMiller 9y ago
    Now try sending some of that money to a third world country and see how much they get between the fees they pay western union and the thugs waiting outside to 'tax' you. From sale to end point .. where'd my money go ? lol
- readams 9y ago
  the merchant is paying 3-5% plus transaction fees for each transaction. It's hidden from you, but you're paying for it.
- diab0lic 9y ago
  No, it does not depend on which card you're using. Everything costs a few percentage points more because of fees for the merchant. You pay this no matter what card you're using. They don't offer you a different price for using a specific card, though a handful do for using cash (gasoline comes to mind).
  - geofft 9y ago
    Sure, but merchants can generally get fees that are only slightly higher than what you get in cash back. Square charges a 2.75% fee (and some of that goes to Square, presumably), and there are 2% cash back cards with no annual fee easily available (I use the Citi Double Cash one). So even if your store is raising prices by 2.75%, you're effective price only goes up by about .7%. If you want to get upset, get upset at how if you have poor credit, you're not eligible for these cards, so really this is credit card companies stealing from poor people.
nwah1 9y ago
Credit cards aren't an apples-to-apples comparison because of the risk to banks of default. An apples to apples comparison is ACH, which is free, and now same-day service is available.

bllguo 9y ago

Africa is actually more sophisticated than the US in many ways regarding fintech Anyway, this is a straw man. Who is saying cryptos are useless? People are saying that they are a bubble, that the valuations are irrational.

zMiller 9y ago
Totally Kenya's mobile payment system evolution from SMSing minute refill codes, to an actual legally recognized form of payment is the original Blockchain in my mind :) But that is exactly my point, in that market , there is demand and need for innovation that means crypto (while inflated right now) is here to stay. People who call Bitcoin a 'Ponzi scheme' , type of plant or apply whatever reduction on a very complex and innovative product are just mind boggling to me.
- TheDong 9y ago
  > People who call Bitcoin a 'Ponzi scheme' , type of plant or apply whatever reduction on a very complex and innovative product are just mind boggling to me. You are mind-boggled because you have created a strawman; a caricature of what the "bitcoin non-believer" looks like. Your mind would be less boggled if you accepted that there are valid points on both sides in this case. People who question bitcoin's current valuation or utility often have valid points, but if you immediately interpret their points to be as extreme as possible, of course they're mind boggling. Similarly, people who are bullish on bitcoin often have good points and sound reasoning, but it's quite easy to also paint them with a brush which makes their positions and points mind boggling as well. It's good to have some empathy and to actually listen, especially when it's about subjects that are so divisive. The most divisive things are the things that should least be divided further by constantly misrepresenting each side's points.
  - zMiller 9y ago
    You are absolutely right. Again my comment was directed at : > People who call Bitcoin a 'Ponzi scheme' , type of plant or apply whatever reduction on a very complex and innovative product. Not at the one's who are raising very valid red flags on valuation and how hot the market is becoming. In my personal opinion it is absolutely 'bubble' like behavior right now. And i believe we both echo the same sentiment.

riku_iki 9y ago

> we tap our Visa card to pay instantly with no fees I guess it's businesses, who pay high enough fees on your transactions.

geofft 9y ago
The current Bitcoin transaction fee is $20+. Credit card processors charge you under 3%. If you're doing transactions of under about $700 USD, credit card fees are cheaper than Bitcoin fees.
- vkou 9y ago
  Credit card processors also pay the user of the CC a cashback on a significant portion of that fee... And are also liable for fraud. Who do I chargeback when an online merchant takes my BTC, and doesn't ship the goods I bought? BitPay will tell me to pound sand. VISA will process a chargeback, no questions asked.
  - a_tractor 9y ago
    Good problems to solve in this space.
    - vkou 9y ago
      By creating an off-chain payment processor called BISA, and we're back to charging merchants fees for cashback + fraud losses, except now we're for some stupid reason doing it on a blockchain.
      - a_tractor 9y ago
        Wow. Its like you have no imagination at all and your thinking is confined to a prison of pessimism and failure. Thanks for sharing! The best thing I could say to you is that you need to do less talking about stuff you clearly know nothing about, and far more research. No offense.
- 9y ago

amckenna 9y ago

Yup, that's why Dash coin has partnered with KuvaCash to help fight inflation and provide easier access to funds in Zimbabwe - https://www.dash.org/2017/11/23/KuvaCash.html https://www.dash.org/2017/11/23/KuvaCash.html It'll be an interesting test case for the value cryptocurrencies can provide in third world countries.

KasianFranks 9y ago

Well said.

baby 9y ago

> Crytpo's use case as currency make absolutely no sense Note that calling cryptocurrencies "crypto" doesn't make much sense either.

johnwheeler 9y ago

> Of the top my head, it is estimated that 10% of our GDP is in off shore havens, think about that infamous 1% moving just half of that 10% into Bitcoin .. The IRS would crack down on this as with any other tax avoidance scheme. Offshore havens are probably safer since many rely on loopholes.

millermp12 9y ago
Sure, but much of this depends on BTC exchanged for fiat. I suspect that if governments really try to put their foot down, they will inadvertently fuel a shadow economy similar to how failed states try to set an official FX rate.
starlust2 9y ago
More so that argument relies on magic thinking. Unless there's good reason to believe that bitcoin will be the goto for tax avoidance it's just wishful thinking. If just 0.000000001% of all astroids made of solid platinum land in my back yard I'll be a gazillionaire!
gamblor956 9y ago
We have information disclosure treaties with all of the offshore havens, re FATCA. They were actually the first targets and they acquiesced almost immediately. If you're trying to hide assets, the U.S. is the place to be, as none of our treaties actually require us to share information back with the rest of the world.

and0 9y ago

But wouldn't transaction fees, which are already really rough for people making a first-world salary, be even more unsustainable if that fee is a whole day's wage (or more) in the places you're describing? And how would those areas of the world have that level of connectivity? e: for making a huge sale of crops or something to another nation, then 1 transaction fee is not bad compared converting at a %, but you'd still need to convert from Bitcoin to a local currency to actually use the money you made.

joe_the_user 9y ago

The average "unbanked" person in a third world nation couldn't afford a $20 transaction fee for their ordinary transactions. But bitcoin certainly looks like a way for some portion of this group to protect their capital since it's not controlled by states want capital controls. Of course, there's a reason third world countries want capital controls - a lot of the people seeking to export capital are corrupt non-owning possessors of resources. Just as an example, whatever rank administrators within state oil companies and such who want to take things that actually belong to the nations - because such nations have rather weak administrative classes (not that the US isn't moving closer to "kleptocracy" itself). So everywhere, bitcoin certainly looks like a device for protecting value - except once all the money that wants to move in has moved, then bitcoin's lack of actual practical use (see $20 fees) will make it not terribly valuable and all that money in it will be at a bit of risk. Plus, phone-based money systems already are coming/in Africa. They solve the ordinary transaction problem. The problem of "how do you get money out of X currency or resource" isn't a logistics problem, it's a power-struggle. The reason Y person is fighting to get money out of X currency is Z person wants to stop that happening. But overall, remember neither Y nor Z are likely to be less than fully corrupt.

zMiller 9y ago
Spot on. Use as currency for Bitcoin (and other coin networks) is still in it's infancy and cannot scale the way it needs to should it want to replace fiat. The important distinction I would draw though that stores of value have historically been cumbersome to transport and liquidate, Bitcoin solves that problem in a very good way. I feel it's important to also address this 20$ bitcoin fee meme that seems to be going around. While based in truth it is not 100% accurate. You have the capacity to set your own txn fee on the Bitcoin network. If you don't mind waiting a couple of blocks (1-3 hours) to get your transaction confirmed , then the fees fall down to single dollars and even lower. If you're selling a bulk commodity to a distributor in another market , you don't need ecommerce style confirmation times. Same goes for transferring large sums of wealth. With that said, things like the lightning network will resolve alot of issues with Bitcoin scaling and in my (humble) opinion this is why LTC is pumping. (Atomic swap + Transfer over LTC )

bufferoverflow 9y ago

> "we tap our Visa card to pay instantly with no fees" That's just not true, these fees are baked into the prices, since the seller pays them. That's one of the reason cryptocurrencies are advantageous in the long run, they can eventually provide the transaction fees close to what they cost in electricity and infrastructure amortization - pretty much sub-penny to transfer any amount.

zodiac 9y ago

> we tap our Visa card to pay instantly with no fees I hope you mean realize that merchants eat the fee and are contractually not allowed to offer discounts for cash payments. And many of them are not happy about this situation.

GalacticDomin8r 9y ago
It's an economic compromise. They don't have to be happy about it, just sign the agreement. Or don't and forgo those customers who will only pay that way. I doubt cypto currency is going to help that setup at all, and most likely it will just offer more avenues to do the same.
nrhk 9y ago
Yup, and that liability consumers are protected from? Merchants pay that back in chargebacks and chargeback fees.
tpolzer 9y ago
The solution to this is way easier than blockchain: Just regulate them. Personal credit card fees in the EU are capped at 0.3% and everybody is better off.
- mr_spothawk 9y ago
  > The solution to this is way easier than blockchain: Just regulate them. Regulation is not easier. I & my merchant can use blockchain today, without any permission or buy-in from a regulatory body. This is an example of automation taking a job. As an engineer and small(er, more efficient, more effective, more fair, more predictable) government enthusiast, it thrills me to see that we're automating away the jobs of bankers and regulators around the world.
- zodiac 9y ago
  I think the necessity for regulation shows that unregulated payment processors leads to market failure (due to the nature of that market under current non-blockchain tech). Regulatuon fixes this market failure, but I see regulation as a last resort due to its being a high overhead solution (you rely on courts to interpret the regulations or check the statutory agencies, on the agencies to do their work, on lawmakers to keep the laws up to date). Of course, it is an open question as to whether blockchain tech can lead to the payment processor market not to suffer from market failure if unregulated.

oreo81 9y ago

Visa actually has charge fees of 1.5%-2.5%....

oreo81 9y ago

Visa has charge fees of 1.5%-2.5%...

majani 9y ago

Kenya is the global leader in mobile money adoption for the same reasons you've stated. Smart money should be preaching the crypto gospel in Somalia, Zimbabwe, Venezuela etc. The average citizen from such countries is way more in tune with the need for alternative currencies

stordoff 9y ago

> From our perspective yes, Crytpo's use case as currency make absolutely no sense (yet), we tap our Visa card to pay instantly with no fees and no fraud liability, hard to beat. Fees that are absorbed by the merchant, so not an entirely fair comparison. Still, I agree that the fees make the use cases for cryptocurrenies very limited personally. Right now, I can pay a fee to a third-party (CC fees in the form of slightly higher priced goods) BUT that third-party takes on a significant part of the liability (e.g. for goods not provided), and I can transfer money to a trusted (or untrusted providing I am OK with the risk) party in the same country for ZERO fees via my bank. For those use cases, using most cryptocurrenies would be strictly worse (I either give up the fraud protection or I am paying an unnecessary fee). The only case where it makes sense is for international transfers, which typically do have higher bank fees, but personally they are so rare (I've used it once in the past decade) that they are barely worth considering for my personal use cases.

rohit2412 9y ago

Clearly a "first-worlder" view. People in (most) oppressive regimes are not looking to move off their currencies, and nobody is looking for a decentralized solution for banking. M-pesa, Vodafone money, mobile wallets work great for people. There's no reason for costly decentralization that Bitcoin offers. Maybe a case could be made for Venezuela where bolivars are useless, but USD is a far better candidate for their currency needs that Bitcoin, given how volatile Bitcoin is.

TheCoelacanth 9y ago

It seems to me like bitcoin is more comparable to a wire transfer than to the other forms . Like a wire transfer, but unlike nearly every other form of digital payment (credit card, debit card, ACH), it is irrevocable. It's fees are also competitive with the $20+ that sending a wire transfer will cost. That would make it something of a niche form of payment compared to say credit cards. You aren't going to use it to pay for a cup of coffee, but there still are trillions of dollars worth of wire transfers per day. That is roughly one thousand times the amount currently transacted per day in bitcoin at the current valuation so even taking over a tiny portion of the wire transfer market would justify bitcoin's current valuation.

petre 9y ago

BTC is used in Zimbawe, which would hardly classify as a developed nation.

tripzilch 9y ago

> think about that infamous 1% moving just half of that 10% into Bitcoin .. Please remember "that infamous 1%" is actually the 0.001% or much less. The top 1% income actually includes dentists, successful software engineers, etc. Normal successful people. An amount of wealth that can actually be attained regardless where you came from, given luck, talent, luck and in some cases, hard work[0]. The phrase "the 1%" was originally introduced to draw a line between people with such a ridiculous amount of wealth that it doesn't make sense and is really only attainable by being born in it, or being born with very rich family and learning the shibboleth over your lifetime. Becoming insanely wealthy by an insane stroke of luck is possibly but it only gets you in contact with this elite, not "in", but if you play your cards right your children might. [0] don't be mistaken that "hard work" is any kind of predictor for wealth. just look around you. hard work may be considered virtuous, but that's it. it's not like "being a good person" gets you rich, either.