7 ms·

UK Government Wargame Designer Position

36 points by orome 9y ago

076ae80a-3c97-4 9y ago
The pay's crap.
- shubb 9y ago
  It's not a tech job. When they say war games, they mean guys running around a field. The ideal candidate is probably a retired soldier. In the UK, regular soldiers are paid much less than in the US, and have far fewer benifits and protections after they leave, so this would be a good oppertunity for someone. Also, it's only 10% less than Atmel are offering graduate R&D engineers at their touch screen R&D facility down the road. Outside California and London, people just don't get paid very much.
  - chrisseaton 9y ago
    You're talking absolute nonsense. > It's not a tech job "Develop and trial new technology for wargaming as well as maintaining existing capabilities, such as combat models, computer simulations and array of manual wargames" > they mean guys running around a field War games it not guys running around in a field. It's the absolute opposite of that. It's simulating, instead of running around in a field. > In the UK, regular soldiers are paid much less than in the US No, a UK private soldier is paid $24,631, while a US private soldier $19,198. A UK major $67,171, while a US major $55,231. https://www.army.mod.uk/documents/general/Ratesofpay-Regular.pdf https://www.army.mod.uk/documents/general/Ratesofpay-Regular... https://www.goarmy.com/benefits/money/basic-pay-active-duty-soldiers.html https://www.goarmy.com/benefits/money/basic-pay-active-duty-...
    - Jtsummers 9y ago
      To be clear, your first quote ("devolop and trial") is what they (the lab as a whole) do, what the potential hire will do is listed lower: You will: - Assist in the design and development of wargames, translating customer requirements into practicable designs based on credible overarching scenarios and vignettes. They're wanting a wargamer to do wargaming and aid in the development of the technology, but not actually be the developer (programmer, systems engineer, tester, etc.). This is even clearer when you get down to the qualifications where they say they're open to people with history degrees amongst other options. They want experts in simulations, which can be computerized or not.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
  - gaius 9y ago
    n the UK, regular soldiers are paid much less than in the US British Army Private £18,488 Lance Corporal £25,524, that's $24,633 and $34,007 respectively according to Bing. US Army is $19,198 and $25,066 respectively. Obviously cost of living etc is different, but British soldiers are comparatively well paid. have far fewer benifits and protections after they leave This is true. The way we treat our veterans is appalling. Upon leaving the Army they are basically disowned and discarded by the government (both parties) and it is up to the charity sector. Even discrimination based on veteran or reserve status is perfectly legal here[1]. One charity I actively support is https://supportourparas.org https://supportourparas.org [1] One reason the AR has no hope of reaching its target of 30k trained reservists. The TA 20 years ago managed 70k!
    - robin_reala 9y ago
      If I leave a company I’m basically discarded by that company. I worked for the U.K. government and I’ve got a reasonable pension and nothing else. Why should soldiers be any different? It’s just a job.
      - gaius 9y ago
        Most jobs do not require you to undergo an institutionalising training process, nor to place yourself at risk of violent death, nor to move house or even country every couple of years, nor many other things.
        robin_reala 9y ago
        But it’s your choice to undergo that. No-one in modern Britain is forced into military service.
        gaius 9y ago
        Well, it was your choice to work for the UK gov, why should you be entitled to a gold-plated final salary pension? Because it's - supposedly - a reasonable expectation for the opportunity cost of taking a different kind of job than you would find working for a corporation. Nowadays of course public sector salaries outstrip the private sector, so probably the pension should be scrapped.
  - ben_w 9y ago
    > and have far fewer benifits and protections after they leave Really? From what I’ve heard, the American benefits system is so messed up that literally everyone in the UK gets better benefits than anyone earning less than about $50k in the US can hope to afford even with assistance from their employer. And that’s just regarding health insurance.
    - chrisseaton 9y ago
      I think crucially British soldiers do not get the funded university education that US soldiers do when they leave. But that's because the UK does not have the same culture of young men going into the Army for a few years before going to college. In the UK if you wanted to go to college you'd do that before you joined the Army, and there are bursaries for that.
      - ben_w 9y ago
        Hm. Student loans in the UK are certainly problematic. I think they’re better than US student loans, but UK loans might have become worse without me noticing. Edit: also notable is the UK has a (basically free) qualification between highschool and university degree, as UK “secondary schools” finish 1 year before US highschool, and university starts 2 years after secondary school ends.
- osrec 9y ago
  And that's for a senior executive officer!
  - chrisseaton 9y ago
    I think 'senior executive officer' is the second-lowest grade in the Civil Service that is not an assistant. 'Executive' in this case means 'getting on actually doing the work', and 'officer' means you are responsible for a particular job. I know in the US 'executive' means management but when you think about what the actual word means that isn't universal.
  - evansd 9y ago
    Despite the name, Senior Executive Officer is a pretty low grade within the UK Civil Service.
- Boothroid 9y ago
  For a grad level position I'd argue it's just about acceptable - outside of the big tech companies UK salaries aren't that amazing, and it could probably be a nice stepping stone onto something bigger and better. Usual story in SE UK though - on that salary it would likely be a long and dull road of saving hard even to afford a shoebox, and patriotism doesn't pay the bills.
  - dba7dba 9y ago
    patriotism doesn't pay the bills. Not so when I look at Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Raytheon and on and on...
    - Boothroid 9y ago
      You know you are talking about something different.
- cmdkeen 9y ago
  Factor in the civil service pension scheme (worth an extra ~20% of salary) and level of holiday you get and it looks rather more attractive. Based on my contacts there DSTL is also a very good place to work, with plenty of interesting stuff to get involved in.
jacquesm 9y ago
Job ads should go to the 'Who is hiring' thread.
- dang 9y ago
  Quite true, but I think the other users are probably right that it wasn't posted qua ad but repurposed for curiosity. A salt shaker isn't a chess piece but it is if you use it as one.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    I think you're dead wrong about this. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=service.gov.uk https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=service.gov.uk Which has a bunch of such submissions, always by 0 comment HN participants. It's most likely someone trying to fish the HN pool for applicants. That it's borderline interesting is just a nice little hook to get around the rules. But feel free to undo my flag.
    - scaryclam 9y ago
      Either something odd's going on and past submissions have been removed, or there's only two things from service.gov.uk. One of which is this and the other from 531 days ago doesn't appear to be allowing comments. Not saying you're wrong, but your link isn't backing you up so you may want to double check it's the one you intended.
      - jacquesm 9y ago
        They don't allow comments because the links are too old. But I was referring to the comment history of the accounts posting those links, not to the links themselves.
    - dang 9y ago
      I'd say https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=orome https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=orome is much more benign! I'd rather encourage people to post out-of-the-way things, even if a few unwanted twists get in there. If it gets to be more of a problem we'll arrive at your view soon enough, and more importantly, I appreciate your watching out for the quality of HN. On that we agree fully.
cerealbad 9y ago
Onsite gyms and restaurants how long until accommodation becomes part of the package.
- Jtsummers 9y ago
  This is the UK's Defence Science & Technology Laboratory, I'm wagering this is on a military base. The same perks are offered to most US civilians working on military bases as well.
  - 0xffff2 9y ago
    Aren't the same perks offered by most workplaces? Every place I've ever worked, military and civilian alike, have offered some kind of gym and some kind of food on the premises.
    - Jtsummers 9y ago
      No? I've never had those perks outside of working at universities or military bases. Perhaps in bigger cities? I've generally stayed in small cities though.
stupidcar 9y ago
The website for the Connections UK, a yearly "Professional Wargaming" conference has photos and presentation slides/audio that give a good idea what this kind of wargaming involves: http://professionalwargaming.co.uk/2017.html http://professionalwargaming.co.uk/2017.html Basically, very complex board games that are intended to simulate real-world strategic situations.
- toyg 9y ago
  I think this image is meme-worth: http://professionalwargaming.co.uk/17-20170906_192955.jpg http://professionalwargaming.co.uk/17-20170906_192955.jpg "Oh no, not THAT story again..."
  - jasonlotito 9y ago
    So, I actually know the guy in black (Rex), and he's actually really good story teller. He runs this blog: https://paxsims.wordpress.com https://paxsims.wordpress.com
- 1123581321 9y ago
  I recognize the name Jim Wallman from "megagames," which are board games/wargames played by 30-60 players over several hours. The most popular of these is Watch the Skies, which pits nations against each other as well as unseen aliens. This video is long, but a good introduction to Wallman's work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN71v9H_gg8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN71v9H_gg8 Prior to this video being released, megagames were mostly played in the UK, but now they are played all over the United States. The photos in this article look similar to my recreational experiences playing megagames, so I'm not surprised that he is able to handle wargame design for an actual military.
- jasonlotito 9y ago
  Oh yeah! A topic I know and about people I actually know! > Basically, very complex board games that are intended to simulate real-world strategic situations. Yes, and they aren't just war games. They are games involving humanitarian crisis's and what not. See the game Aftershock[0] as an example (both designers are friends of mine). The reality is, using games to "game out scenarios" are an interesting tool, even in tech. Think about things like game days, where you take down parts of a service to see what happens. Its better to solve these problems in a "game" rather than in the real world. Think beyond war, but anything that involves challenges. "AFTERSHOCK: A Humanitarian Crisis Game is a boardgame that explores the interagency cooperation needed to address the emergency and early recovery phase of a complex humanitarian crisis." Some really interesting things. [0] https://paxsims.wordpress.com/aftershock/ https://paxsims.wordpress.com/aftershock/
dba7dba 9y ago
In 1942, Admiral Yamato of Imperial Japanese Navy presided over a wargame of upcoming battle in/around Midway, before heading out to the famous Midway Battle. He was dead set on going through with the attempted landing on the Midway Island. There were ones below him who thought it wouldn't succeed. The wargame showed the invasion wouldn't succeed. Admiral Yamato (or his aides?) brushed aside Japanese loses and even brought back Japanese carriers that got sunk in the wargame (basically cheated) to basically force a victory for the Japanese fleet. And of course Japanese fleet was defeated massively. US Navy got few critical lucky breaks but the Japanese wargame predicted a defeat for Japanese fleet.
- dba7dba 9y ago
  Correction: Yamato --> Yamamoto Apologies.

36 points by orome 9y ago

076ae80a-3c97-4 9y ago

The pay's crap.

shubb 9y ago
It's not a tech job. When they say war games, they mean guys running around a field. The ideal candidate is probably a retired soldier. In the UK, regular soldiers are paid much less than in the US, and have far fewer benifits and protections after they leave, so this would be a good oppertunity for someone. Also, it's only 10% less than Atmel are offering graduate R&D engineers at their touch screen R&D facility down the road. Outside California and London, people just don't get paid very much.
- chrisseaton 9y ago
  You're talking absolute nonsense. > It's not a tech job "Develop and trial new technology for wargaming as well as maintaining existing capabilities, such as combat models, computer simulations and array of manual wargames" > they mean guys running around a field War games it not guys running around in a field. It's the absolute opposite of that. It's simulating, instead of running around in a field. > In the UK, regular soldiers are paid much less than in the US No, a UK private soldier is paid $24,631, while a US private soldier $19,198. A UK major $67,171, while a US major $55,231. https://www.army.mod.uk/documents/general/Ratesofpay-Regular.pdf https://www.army.mod.uk/documents/general/Ratesofpay-Regular... https://www.goarmy.com/benefits/money/basic-pay-active-duty-soldiers.html https://www.goarmy.com/benefits/money/basic-pay-active-duty-...
  - Jtsummers 9y ago
    To be clear, your first quote ("devolop and trial") is what they (the lab as a whole) do, what the potential hire will do is listed lower: You will: - Assist in the design and development of wargames, translating customer requirements into practicable designs based on credible overarching scenarios and vignettes. They're wanting a wargamer to do wargaming and aid in the development of the technology, but not actually be the developer (programmer, systems engineer, tester, etc.). This is even clearer when you get down to the qualifications where they say they're open to people with history degrees amongst other options. They want experts in simulations, which can be computerized or not.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- gaius 9y ago
  n the UK, regular soldiers are paid much less than in the US British Army Private £18,488 Lance Corporal £25,524, that's $24,633 and $34,007 respectively according to Bing. US Army is $19,198 and $25,066 respectively. Obviously cost of living etc is different, but British soldiers are comparatively well paid. have far fewer benifits and protections after they leave This is true. The way we treat our veterans is appalling. Upon leaving the Army they are basically disowned and discarded by the government (both parties) and it is up to the charity sector. Even discrimination based on veteran or reserve status is perfectly legal here[1]. One charity I actively support is https://supportourparas.org https://supportourparas.org [1] One reason the AR has no hope of reaching its target of 30k trained reservists. The TA 20 years ago managed 70k!
  - robin_reala 9y ago
    If I leave a company I’m basically discarded by that company. I worked for the U.K. government and I’ve got a reasonable pension and nothing else. Why should soldiers be any different? It’s just a job.
    - gaius 9y ago
      Most jobs do not require you to undergo an institutionalising training process, nor to place yourself at risk of violent death, nor to move house or even country every couple of years, nor many other things.
      - robin_reala 9y ago
        But it’s your choice to undergo that. No-one in modern Britain is forced into military service.
        gaius 9y ago
        Well, it was your choice to work for the UK gov, why should you be entitled to a gold-plated final salary pension? Because it's - supposedly - a reasonable expectation for the opportunity cost of taking a different kind of job than you would find working for a corporation. Nowadays of course public sector salaries outstrip the private sector, so probably the pension should be scrapped.
- ben_w 9y ago
  > and have far fewer benifits and protections after they leave Really? From what I’ve heard, the American benefits system is so messed up that literally everyone in the UK gets better benefits than anyone earning less than about $50k in the US can hope to afford even with assistance from their employer. And that’s just regarding health insurance.
  - chrisseaton 9y ago
    I think crucially British soldiers do not get the funded university education that US soldiers do when they leave. But that's because the UK does not have the same culture of young men going into the Army for a few years before going to college. In the UK if you wanted to go to college you'd do that before you joined the Army, and there are bursaries for that.
    - ben_w 9y ago
      Hm. Student loans in the UK are certainly problematic. I think they’re better than US student loans, but UK loans might have become worse without me noticing. Edit: also notable is the UK has a (basically free) qualification between highschool and university degree, as UK “secondary schools” finish 1 year before US highschool, and university starts 2 years after secondary school ends.
osrec 9y ago
And that's for a senior executive officer!
- chrisseaton 9y ago
  I think 'senior executive officer' is the second-lowest grade in the Civil Service that is not an assistant. 'Executive' in this case means 'getting on actually doing the work', and 'officer' means you are responsible for a particular job. I know in the US 'executive' means management but when you think about what the actual word means that isn't universal.
- evansd 9y ago
  Despite the name, Senior Executive Officer is a pretty low grade within the UK Civil Service.
Boothroid 9y ago
For a grad level position I'd argue it's just about acceptable - outside of the big tech companies UK salaries aren't that amazing, and it could probably be a nice stepping stone onto something bigger and better. Usual story in SE UK though - on that salary it would likely be a long and dull road of saving hard even to afford a shoebox, and patriotism doesn't pay the bills.
- dba7dba 9y ago
  patriotism doesn't pay the bills. Not so when I look at Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Raytheon and on and on...
  - Boothroid 9y ago
    You know you are talking about something different.
cmdkeen 9y ago
Factor in the civil service pension scheme (worth an extra ~20% of salary) and level of holiday you get and it looks rather more attractive. Based on my contacts there DSTL is also a very good place to work, with plenty of interesting stuff to get involved in.

jacquesm 9y ago

Job ads should go to the 'Who is hiring' thread.

dang 9y ago
Quite true, but I think the other users are probably right that it wasn't posted qua ad but repurposed for curiosity. A salt shaker isn't a chess piece but it is if you use it as one.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  I think you're dead wrong about this. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=service.gov.uk https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=service.gov.uk Which has a bunch of such submissions, always by 0 comment HN participants. It's most likely someone trying to fish the HN pool for applicants. That it's borderline interesting is just a nice little hook to get around the rules. But feel free to undo my flag.
  - scaryclam 9y ago
    Either something odd's going on and past submissions have been removed, or there's only two things from service.gov.uk. One of which is this and the other from 531 days ago doesn't appear to be allowing comments. Not saying you're wrong, but your link isn't backing you up so you may want to double check it's the one you intended.
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      They don't allow comments because the links are too old. But I was referring to the comment history of the accounts posting those links, not to the links themselves.
  - dang 9y ago
    I'd say https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=orome https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=orome is much more benign! I'd rather encourage people to post out-of-the-way things, even if a few unwanted twists get in there. If it gets to be more of a problem we'll arrive at your view soon enough, and more importantly, I appreciate your watching out for the quality of HN. On that we agree fully.

cerealbad 9y ago

Onsite gyms and restaurants how long until accommodation becomes part of the package.

Jtsummers 9y ago
This is the UK's Defence Science & Technology Laboratory, I'm wagering this is on a military base. The same perks are offered to most US civilians working on military bases as well.
- 0xffff2 9y ago
  Aren't the same perks offered by most workplaces? Every place I've ever worked, military and civilian alike, have offered some kind of gym and some kind of food on the premises.
  - Jtsummers 9y ago
    No? I've never had those perks outside of working at universities or military bases. Perhaps in bigger cities? I've generally stayed in small cities though.

stupidcar 9y ago

The website for the Connections UK, a yearly "Professional Wargaming" conference has photos and presentation slides/audio that give a good idea what this kind of wargaming involves: http://professionalwargaming.co.uk/2017.html http://professionalwargaming.co.uk/2017.html Basically, very complex board games that are intended to simulate real-world strategic situations.

toyg 9y ago
I think this image is meme-worth: http://professionalwargaming.co.uk/17-20170906_192955.jpg http://professionalwargaming.co.uk/17-20170906_192955.jpg "Oh no, not THAT story again..."
- jasonlotito 9y ago
  So, I actually know the guy in black (Rex), and he's actually really good story teller. He runs this blog: https://paxsims.wordpress.com https://paxsims.wordpress.com
1123581321 9y ago
I recognize the name Jim Wallman from "megagames," which are board games/wargames played by 30-60 players over several hours. The most popular of these is Watch the Skies, which pits nations against each other as well as unseen aliens. This video is long, but a good introduction to Wallman's work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN71v9H_gg8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN71v9H_gg8 Prior to this video being released, megagames were mostly played in the UK, but now they are played all over the United States. The photos in this article look similar to my recreational experiences playing megagames, so I'm not surprised that he is able to handle wargame design for an actual military.
jasonlotito 9y ago
Oh yeah! A topic I know and about people I actually know! > Basically, very complex board games that are intended to simulate real-world strategic situations. Yes, and they aren't just war games. They are games involving humanitarian crisis's and what not. See the game Aftershock[0] as an example (both designers are friends of mine). The reality is, using games to "game out scenarios" are an interesting tool, even in tech. Think about things like game days, where you take down parts of a service to see what happens. Its better to solve these problems in a "game" rather than in the real world. Think beyond war, but anything that involves challenges. "AFTERSHOCK: A Humanitarian Crisis Game is a boardgame that explores the interagency cooperation needed to address the emergency and early recovery phase of a complex humanitarian crisis." Some really interesting things. [0] https://paxsims.wordpress.com/aftershock/ https://paxsims.wordpress.com/aftershock/

dba7dba 9y ago

In 1942, Admiral Yamato of Imperial Japanese Navy presided over a wargame of upcoming battle in/around Midway, before heading out to the famous Midway Battle. He was dead set on going through with the attempted landing on the Midway Island. There were ones below him who thought it wouldn't succeed. The wargame showed the invasion wouldn't succeed. Admiral Yamato (or his aides?) brushed aside Japanese loses and even brought back Japanese carriers that got sunk in the wargame (basically cheated) to basically force a victory for the Japanese fleet. And of course Japanese fleet was defeated massively. US Navy got few critical lucky breaks but the Japanese wargame predicted a defeat for Japanese fleet.

dba7dba 9y ago
Correction: Yamato --> Yamamoto Apologies.