9 ms·

Just opened a company in Estonia. The experience so far has been incredible. It's not quite the future - all the technologies should exist everywhere etc. It's

by fijal 9y ago

Just opened a company in Estonia. The experience so far has been incredible. It's not quite the future - all the technologies should exist everywhere etc. It's the present that should have been, but somehow it's not.

lukasm 9y ago
Why did you do it in Estonia?
- fijal 9y ago
  English, stable currency, ability to do stuff online, mature and working banking system. Does not leave many interesting candidates.
  - dejv 9y ago
    What are you using (if you are using anything) for taking credit card payments? Stripe is not available there, right?
    - fijal 9y ago
      Investigating that topic, but taking card payments is not a part of my primary business.
    - logronoide 9y ago
      Stripe is not in Estonia, so we applied to Braintree. It took us a couple of weeks and we were rejected at the beginning, but finally they accepted us. Also 2checkout can be an option too.
      - kreetx 9y ago
        It's so unfortunate that Stripe isn't supported in Estonia yet! It would be a major boon given the good reputation Stripe has among developers.
        vilmosi 9y ago
        Maybe it's a regional thing but I never encountered Stripe in the UK/EU. I don't think people know of it.
        ateesdalejr 9y ago
        Stripe is used by https://pythonanywhere.com https://pythonanywhere.com I believe they are based in the UK according to their payment statements.
        wastedhours 9y ago
        On the other hand of anecdata, I'm in the UK, and plenty of people I know have heard of and use it. It's the developer go-to for most projects I've seen, but BT does appeal with Paypal integration.
        toomanybeersies 9y ago
        I've worked with both Braintree and Stripe, and I'm honestly not sure why people harp on about Stripe so much compared to BT. In my experience, they're both super easy to work with.
        randsp 9y ago
        What about Paymill?
      - MadQA 9y ago
        Dang, I should go try and reapply, also e-resident, also got rejected pretty quickly. Good to know the guys are open to re-evaluation.
        logronoide 9y ago
        I was a Braintree customer for more than three years in another company. My experience in my former company was very good, so I was a bit surprised when I was rejected. I wrote to them and I asked them to explain to me why they have rejected me. I told them I was an ex-customer and I could prove it. So they came back and they asked for an insane amount of information and documentation. Something I learned is the 'no-paper' model of Estonia is something Braintree doesn't like at all. I had a problem with a very specific request, and Leapin helped me to get it in less than 24 hours. So yes, go and try again!
      - randsp 9y ago
        What bank are you using? Apparently Stripe doesn't accept Holvi or Transferwise (which indeed are not banks)
  - superplussed 9y ago
    What are the advantages over using Stripe Atlas and having a US Delaware C Corp for $500?
    - dullgiulio 9y ago
      Maybe it needs to be in the EU.
    - fijal 9y ago
      I tried to sign up for stripe atlas in beta and they didn't want me :) More seriously - owning shares in us companies create scary tax implications that require some advice when having us clients. US banking system is stuck is in the 1800s and dealing with it is a very serious pain. US legal system, unlike European is very unfriendly for individuals - its just infeasible to do stuff yourself on a shoestring budget, without hiring professionals.
      - adventured 9y ago
        > its just infeasible to do stuff yourself on a shoestring budget, without hiring professionals. Millions of new businesses are started every year in the US on a shoestring and without hiring professionals.
        slededit 9y ago
        For foreign owned companies there are a myriad of complex reporting requirements a US person would never see. Despite not even being a tax form some of these (e.g. FBAR) have penalties of 50% of the unreported amount. It's not something you want to leave to chance.
        forapurpose 9y ago
        > Millions of new businesses are started every year in the US on a shoestring and without hiring professionals. I don't think that's meaningful. There are 320 million people in the U.S., and only a tiny proportion of people anywhere would consider opening their business in another country. That doesn't mean there isn't a high barrier to accessing the U.S. legal system. For example, as we know, well-funded parties often defeat poorer parties by simply threatening legal action, because the poorer party cannot afford to use the legal system.
puranjay 9y ago
Curious to know: what's your home country? What are the tax implications for you locally?
- fijal 9y ago
  Personally none - I pay taxes in my home country and everyone is happy. The company rules (delayed income tax, income tax rate) might be subject to treaty that defines "command and control" - that is if the company is really located in Estonia or is it effectively in your home country? If you have an actual office or co founders from other countries or some other vague "company is actually located in estonia", then there are no tax implications of that, other than your personal income.
elorant 9y ago
Can you open a company without visiting the country?
- fijal 9y ago
  yes, but you cannot open a bank account. You can use holvi (https://about.holvi.com/e-residents/ https://about.holvi.com/e-residents/) but I haven't used it and don't know details on how it differs from a regular bank.
crypt1d 9y ago
Me too! I used leapin for the whole process. Never had a more pleasant experience with bureaucratic procedures.
icey 9y ago
I'm getting ready to do this but haven't figured out a way to open a bank account there without visiting the country. How did you do that? I saw there's a service that will do it for you but it seems like an expensive monthly fee.
- logronoide 9y ago
  I opened my company with Leapin. Easy and fast. If you don’t need a bank account and you can live with PayPal you don’t need to go there. I needed a bank account and credit card so I traveled to Tallinn and opened a bank account at LHV. You have to sign the documents at the bank office. I think LHV Bank is working on a remote process with an interview using Skype, but it was not available several months ago. Still, I have faced several issues setting up my small SaaS service: Stripe is not available and my Braintree application was rejected because they did not understand why I wanted to create a company in Estonia! It took me two weeks to explain that I was a nice guy and then everything went fine. I also had issues creating a merchant account in Coinbase, so I had to use Bitpay.
- jaggederest 9y ago
  To be honest, you should visit the country either way. Estonia is a pretty wonderful place, at least it was when I visited.
- randsp 9y ago
  I'm in the process of opening remotely a company with Leapin. My first intention was to use Holvi for banking but I realized you need to pay 30€/month if you are a e-resident so I probably will switch to Transferwise Borderless.
matiasb 9y ago
I opened a company last year. In my country we can't access Paypal or Stripe and international bank transfers are painful. I had to travel to Estonia because of the KYC stuff from the bank, the rest of the process was completed remotely. Also the deposit insurance in my country is quite low, so saving money in Estonia is a good option for me. I'm using the LHV Bank, they give you a multi-currency account, a great mobile application and also access to different worldwide markets (for investments, etc.).

by fijal 9y ago

lukasm 9y ago

Why did you do it in Estonia?

fijal 9y ago
English, stable currency, ability to do stuff online, mature and working banking system. Does not leave many interesting candidates.
- dejv 9y ago
  What are you using (if you are using anything) for taking credit card payments? Stripe is not available there, right?
  - fijal 9y ago
    Investigating that topic, but taking card payments is not a part of my primary business.
  - logronoide 9y ago
    Stripe is not in Estonia, so we applied to Braintree. It took us a couple of weeks and we were rejected at the beginning, but finally they accepted us. Also 2checkout can be an option too.
    - kreetx 9y ago
      It's so unfortunate that Stripe isn't supported in Estonia yet! It would be a major boon given the good reputation Stripe has among developers.
      - vilmosi 9y ago
        Maybe it's a regional thing but I never encountered Stripe in the UK/EU. I don't think people know of it.
        ateesdalejr 9y ago
        Stripe is used by https://pythonanywhere.com https://pythonanywhere.com I believe they are based in the UK according to their payment statements.
        wastedhours 9y ago
        On the other hand of anecdata, I'm in the UK, and plenty of people I know have heard of and use it. It's the developer go-to for most projects I've seen, but BT does appeal with Paypal integration.
      - toomanybeersies 9y ago
        I've worked with both Braintree and Stripe, and I'm honestly not sure why people harp on about Stripe so much compared to BT. In my experience, they're both super easy to work with.
      - randsp 9y ago
        What about Paymill?
    - MadQA 9y ago
      Dang, I should go try and reapply, also e-resident, also got rejected pretty quickly. Good to know the guys are open to re-evaluation.
      - logronoide 9y ago
        I was a Braintree customer for more than three years in another company. My experience in my former company was very good, so I was a bit surprised when I was rejected. I wrote to them and I asked them to explain to me why they have rejected me. I told them I was an ex-customer and I could prove it. So they came back and they asked for an insane amount of information and documentation. Something I learned is the 'no-paper' model of Estonia is something Braintree doesn't like at all. I had a problem with a very specific request, and Leapin helped me to get it in less than 24 hours. So yes, go and try again!
    - randsp 9y ago
      What bank are you using? Apparently Stripe doesn't accept Holvi or Transferwise (which indeed are not banks)
- superplussed 9y ago
  What are the advantages over using Stripe Atlas and having a US Delaware C Corp for $500?
  - dullgiulio 9y ago
    Maybe it needs to be in the EU.
  - fijal 9y ago
    I tried to sign up for stripe atlas in beta and they didn't want me :) More seriously - owning shares in us companies create scary tax implications that require some advice when having us clients. US banking system is stuck is in the 1800s and dealing with it is a very serious pain. US legal system, unlike European is very unfriendly for individuals - its just infeasible to do stuff yourself on a shoestring budget, without hiring professionals.
    - adventured 9y ago
      > its just infeasible to do stuff yourself on a shoestring budget, without hiring professionals. Millions of new businesses are started every year in the US on a shoestring and without hiring professionals.
      - slededit 9y ago
        For foreign owned companies there are a myriad of complex reporting requirements a US person would never see. Despite not even being a tax form some of these (e.g. FBAR) have penalties of 50% of the unreported amount. It's not something you want to leave to chance.
      - forapurpose 9y ago
        > Millions of new businesses are started every year in the US on a shoestring and without hiring professionals. I don't think that's meaningful. There are 320 million people in the U.S., and only a tiny proportion of people anywhere would consider opening their business in another country. That doesn't mean there isn't a high barrier to accessing the U.S. legal system. For example, as we know, well-funded parties often defeat poorer parties by simply threatening legal action, because the poorer party cannot afford to use the legal system.

puranjay 9y ago

Curious to know: what's your home country? What are the tax implications for you locally?

fijal 9y ago
Personally none - I pay taxes in my home country and everyone is happy. The company rules (delayed income tax, income tax rate) might be subject to treaty that defines "command and control" - that is if the company is really located in Estonia or is it effectively in your home country? If you have an actual office or co founders from other countries or some other vague "company is actually located in estonia", then there are no tax implications of that, other than your personal income.

elorant 9y ago

Can you open a company without visiting the country?

fijal 9y ago
yes, but you cannot open a bank account. You can use holvi (https://about.holvi.com/e-residents/ https://about.holvi.com/e-residents/) but I haven't used it and don't know details on how it differs from a regular bank.

crypt1d 9y ago

Me too! I used leapin for the whole process. Never had a more pleasant experience with bureaucratic procedures.

icey 9y ago

I'm getting ready to do this but haven't figured out a way to open a bank account there without visiting the country. How did you do that? I saw there's a service that will do it for you but it seems like an expensive monthly fee.

logronoide 9y ago
I opened my company with Leapin. Easy and fast. If you don’t need a bank account and you can live with PayPal you don’t need to go there. I needed a bank account and credit card so I traveled to Tallinn and opened a bank account at LHV. You have to sign the documents at the bank office. I think LHV Bank is working on a remote process with an interview using Skype, but it was not available several months ago. Still, I have faced several issues setting up my small SaaS service: Stripe is not available and my Braintree application was rejected because they did not understand why I wanted to create a company in Estonia! It took me two weeks to explain that I was a nice guy and then everything went fine. I also had issues creating a merchant account in Coinbase, so I had to use Bitpay.
jaggederest 9y ago
To be honest, you should visit the country either way. Estonia is a pretty wonderful place, at least it was when I visited.
randsp 9y ago
I'm in the process of opening remotely a company with Leapin. My first intention was to use Holvi for banking but I realized you need to pay 30€/month if you are a e-resident so I probably will switch to Transferwise Borderless.

matiasb 9y ago

I opened a company last year. In my country we can't access Paypal or Stripe and international bank transfers are painful. I had to travel to Estonia because of the KYC stuff from the bank, the rest of the process was completed remotely. Also the deposit insurance in my country is quite low, so saving money in Estonia is a good option for me. I'm using the LHV Bank, they give you a multi-currency account, a great mobile application and also access to different worldwide markets (for investments, etc.).