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Agreed. Anyone who claims they know what possible outcomes we can expect from UBI is deluding themselves (or more likely feeling their comfort zone / world view
by harryf 9y ago
Agreed. Anyone who claims they know what possible outcomes we can expect from UBI is deluding themselves (or more likely feeling their comfort zone / world view threatened).
UBI could be as significant event for the human race as invention of fire; for the first time large number of human beings with the time and opportunity to develop their talents vs being forced to work minimum wage. It could be like unleashing an army of "Linus Torvalds" - amazingly positive. We don't know
- the-dude 9y agoWe have limited UBI ( 'bijstand' ) in The Netherlands for decades and I am sure the results will be a mixed bag. I know one bar owner in a typical 'bijstand' neighbourhood which was pretty happy. Too bad none of those guys made it past 60. I know some people in lifelong 'bijstand' too, the exception does something useful for society like cultural events. Most just piss their life away.
- Frondo 9y ago"Most just piss their life away." This is totally not snark: how is this different from people without ambition who have a low-end service industry job and no ambition to do more than wash dishes or pump gas? Why would there be anything more dignified in an old man washing dishes in a restaurant over an old man just drinking his days away? Neither is what I aspire to, but the latter feels more honest to me. In other words, what I try to wrap my head around is: who cares how someone else wastes their life, if that's ultimately the big-picture goal they choose?
- the-dude 9y agoI care because I am made to pay for it. Even with UBI.
- rspeer 9y agoOh. That's a dumb reason. Until this it was sounding like you had an argument against UBI from society's point of view, not just based on your own financial interest.
- the-dude 9y agoSo it a-ok for me to work more so we can get UBI for them to work less ( pardon me, slave away! ) and will get magically creative? Dude.
- rspeer 9y agoI'm sorry, I thought you were trying to convince people who support UBI. The context is that people want to redistribute wealth. "But it redistributes my wealth!" is the least compelling possible argument against that.
- ameister14 9y agoThat is an argument from society's point of view. When people don't work or contribute to the general welfare of society in any way (and they are able to, not talking about people unable to do things,) and they take from the general pool provided by the rest of the social group, they are taking away resources that could be used for other things, things that may further benefit the individuals providing resources for society. There are arguments to be made about decreasing crime, but most of the most convincing moral imperative arguments are related to religion. The more convincing Keynesian argument is about money going into the economy and driving growth because none of the people dependent on UBI will save anything at all. So from a purely utilitarian point of view, individual financial interest does come into play.
- Frondo 9y agoSomething I've come to realize: I don't care what greedy people want for society. I think their ideas are seldom any good, because personal greed is sort of the polar opposite of what society is all about, in a fundamental way. The discussion of society is all about, "how do we work together?" and this guy's just thinking about his pocketbook. Wrong priorities. Figure out what we want everything to look like, and figure out how to pay for it as the last stage. Looking at your wallet now is, to use the parlance of this site, premature optimization.
- jnbiche 9y ago> Why would there be anything more dignified in an old man washing dishes in a restaurant over an old man just drinking his days away? I don't know if you've ever seen anyone die of alcoholism, but sadly it's very painful and undignified. It seems to me that an abstemious old dishwasher would have a much more enjoyable and dignified old age, regardless of any moral judgement about the two.
- Frondo 9y agoMost of the old people in my family are dead or dying of alcohol-related things, and I still don't give a shit if people want to do that over working as a dishwasher well into old age. Forced labor isn't dignified because we're calling it capitalism.
- wastedhours 9y agoAt what point do you start judging people though? I absolutely do not use 100% of my potential or ambition, and I can be fairly certain most don't. I piss away countless hours watching Netflix, drinking wine and just being. But. With a job, or even the desire for a job, even if it's just man-made theatrics, I'm engaging in society. There's an expectation (either knowingly or unknowingly) that you contribute more value than you take when you have a job - whereas if you literally did nothing, you are just extracting value. Don't misunderstand me, I don't argue we should be optimising solely for "value" (and it becomes tricky with different groups who can't engage with society), but I don't equate "wasting themselves in what they do" with "doing nothing". Personally though, I do believe in the dream of UBI, for me, I think if I was unshackled by the theatrics of the workforce I'd be more creative.
- stillhere 9y agoI, too, think that I'd be more creative if I was unshackled from the workforce but I'm hesitant to change an entire economic system just to fund my startup. There are various options available including loans and savings/investments.
- gurkendoktor 9y agoTo play devil's advocate, people who go to work are very likely to interact with other people, which might help keep our society a little closer together. They might become bitter (since nobody respects low-end service workers), but at least they remember what people are like, and don't turn insane/radical through isolation. I am not sure if there's data to support this claim, though.
- lazerpants 9y agoLikewise, people who spend lots of time in bars also interact with people.
- kkotak 9y agoYeah, but they don't remember it the day after.
- gurkendoktor 9y agoGood point. I was thinking of drinking alone, because it is usually cheaper, but not necessarily so.
- vorotato 9y agoThis amusingly would be solved by having more money.
- the-dude 9y agoBijstand in The Netherlands : - 467k on a ~ 17M population - € 1000 - € 1200 a month - all adults with no income and too little assets can apply - you will be forced to find work or income, but this is trivial to sabotage When you are in the 'bijstand' income-bracket you are also eligble for rent assist and health insurance assist, netting another couple of hundreds. edit: introduced in 1965. edit2: population 20-65 yrs is actually ~10M, so 1 in 20.
- madeofpalk 9y agoWait, this is what we're calling 'UBI' now? Many countries have had this for ages. Australia calls it colloquially "The Dole" and its nothing like UBI. It's like saying a disability pension is 'limited UBI'.
- imtringued 9y agoDo you lose it if you earn more than a certain amount? If yes then it is not universal.
- Galaxeblaffer 9y agoIf "bijstand" is anything like the Danish "bistand", then it's nothing like UBI. It's nothing like UBI because it comes with infinite strings attached that in practice gives you no incentive to get a job. To see a rather nice explanation of UBI and it's differences to current social security schemes watch this.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl39KHS07Xc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl39KHS07Xc
- the-dude 9y agoI am sure the people who just piss their life away couldn't care less if you call it 'bijstand' or UBI. It's a grand in the bank and they are used to live on it ( basically, rent + alcohol ).
- hexane360 9y ago"Here's how it's completely different from UBI" "It doesn't matter what you call it. Gotcha!"
- the-dude 9y agoIn my top comment I already stated 'it will be a mixed bag'. In the comment you are replying to, I am specifically talking about people who are pissing their life away already. Not sure what your point is.
- stdbrouw 9y agoThe entire point of universal basic income is that it's universal, not limited. Other forms of social security (including no-strings-attached social security for those unable to participate in society, such as bijstand in The Netherlands or leefloon in Belgium) are not intended to replace pensions, unemployment benefits, disability benefits, benefits for children or parents, public housing, subsidized tuition, tax exemptions, a tax free personal allowance, and so forth and so on, whereas UBI is intended to function as a replacement for at least a large chunk of these various schemes, not an addition. That changes the entire dynamic. Is it a good idea? Frankly, I don't know, but you can't point to abuse of one particular form of social security and say "see, universal basic income doesn't work!" because it's not nearly the same thing.
- user5994461 9y agoIt's already known. The rents will increase to consume about half of the additional income.
- CaptSpify 9y agoThat's a pretty bold claim. Source?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- craftyguy 9y ago> Anyone who claims they know what possible outcomes we can expect from UBI is deluding themselves What does it mean then when you proceed immediately after that statement to describe a possible outcome?
- crusso 9y agoYou see this faulty reasoning a lot when discussing religion: We can't know or understand God any more than a cockroach can understand an iPhone - but we will now tell you all about God, what he wants from us, and how to obtain the everlasting rewards that he has promised to believers.
- bobwaycott 9y agoIn this instance, nothing more than the parent reinforcing its point by saying, “it could be [whatever random possibilities] ... we don’t know.” The parent is not claiming to know possible outcomes, but specifically calling out that we don’t know what the outcomes will or could be.
- d393k02397 9y agoHis selection of examples is telling. Curation is the message.
- loa_in_ 9y agoParent doesn't "Claim he knows". He said "it could be [some positive outcome as opposed to the statistically prevalent negative predictions]"