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In true HN fashion, everyone's first reaction is to hate this. I don't really know enough to say whether this will work/won't work, but I think it's a cool ide
by nck4222 9y ago
In true HN fashion, everyone's first reaction is to hate this.
I don't really know enough to say whether this will work/won't work, but I think it's a cool idea. It's blending technology, market forces, social contracts all in one in attempt to do something new and beneficial.
I'd love to see more concepts like this being created and tested.
- harryf 9y agoAgreed. Anyone who claims they know what possible outcomes we can expect from UBI is deluding themselves (or more likely feeling their comfort zone / world view threatened). UBI could be as significant event for the human race as invention of fire; for the first time large number of human beings with the time and opportunity to develop their talents vs being forced to work minimum wage. It could be like unleashing an army of "Linus Torvalds" - amazingly positive. We don't know
- the-dude 9y agoWe have limited UBI ( 'bijstand' ) in The Netherlands for decades and I am sure the results will be a mixed bag. I know one bar owner in a typical 'bijstand' neighbourhood which was pretty happy. Too bad none of those guys made it past 60. I know some people in lifelong 'bijstand' too, the exception does something useful for society like cultural events. Most just piss their life away.
- Frondo 9y ago"Most just piss their life away." This is totally not snark: how is this different from people without ambition who have a low-end service industry job and no ambition to do more than wash dishes or pump gas? Why would there be anything more dignified in an old man washing dishes in a restaurant over an old man just drinking his days away? Neither is what I aspire to, but the latter feels more honest to me. In other words, what I try to wrap my head around is: who cares how someone else wastes their life, if that's ultimately the big-picture goal they choose?
- the-dude 9y agoI care because I am made to pay for it. Even with UBI.
- rspeer 9y agoOh. That's a dumb reason. Until this it was sounding like you had an argument against UBI from society's point of view, not just based on your own financial interest.
- the-dude 9y agoSo it a-ok for me to work more so we can get UBI for them to work less ( pardon me, slave away! ) and will get magically creative? Dude.
- rspeer 9y agoI'm sorry, I thought you were trying to convince people who support UBI. The context is that people want to redistribute wealth. "But it redistributes my wealth!" is the least compelling possible argument against that.
- ameister14 9y agoThat is an argument from society's point of view. When people don't work or contribute to the general welfare of society in any way (and they are able to, not talking about people unable to do things,) and they take from the general pool provided by the rest of the social group, they are taking away resources that could be used for other things, things that may further benefit the individuals providing resources for society. There are arguments to be made about decreasing crime, but most of the most convincing moral imperative arguments are related to religion. The more convincing Keynesian argument is about money going into the economy and driving growth because none of the people dependent on UBI will save anything at all. So from a purely utilitarian point of view, individual financial interest does come into play.
- the-dude 9y agoBijstand in The Netherlands : - 467k on a ~ 17M population - € 1000 - € 1200 a month - all adults with no income and too little assets can apply - you will be forced to find work or income, but this is trivial to sabotage When you are in the 'bijstand' income-bracket you are also eligble for rent assist and health insurance assist, netting another couple of hundreds. edit: introduced in 1965. edit2: population 20-65 yrs is actually ~10M, so 1 in 20.
- madeofpalk 9y agoWait, this is what we're calling 'UBI' now? Many countries have had this for ages. Australia calls it colloquially "The Dole" and its nothing like UBI. It's like saying a disability pension is 'limited UBI'.
- imtringued 9y agoDo you lose it if you earn more than a certain amount? If yes then it is not universal.
- Galaxeblaffer 9y agoIf "bijstand" is anything like the Danish "bistand", then it's nothing like UBI. It's nothing like UBI because it comes with infinite strings attached that in practice gives you no incentive to get a job. To see a rather nice explanation of UBI and it's differences to current social security schemes watch this.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl39KHS07Xc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl39KHS07Xc
- the-dude 9y agoI am sure the people who just piss their life away couldn't care less if you call it 'bijstand' or UBI. It's a grand in the bank and they are used to live on it ( basically, rent + alcohol ).
- hexane360 9y ago"Here's how it's completely different from UBI" "It doesn't matter what you call it. Gotcha!"
- the-dude 9y agoIn my top comment I already stated 'it will be a mixed bag'. In the comment you are replying to, I am specifically talking about people who are pissing their life away already. Not sure what your point is.
- stdbrouw 9y agoThe entire point of universal basic income is that it's universal, not limited. Other forms of social security (including no-strings-attached social security for those unable to participate in society, such as bijstand in The Netherlands or leefloon in Belgium) are not intended to replace pensions, unemployment benefits, disability benefits, benefits for children or parents, public housing, subsidized tuition, tax exemptions, a tax free personal allowance, and so forth and so on, whereas UBI is intended to function as a replacement for at least a large chunk of these various schemes, not an addition. That changes the entire dynamic. Is it a good idea? Frankly, I don't know, but you can't point to abuse of one particular form of social security and say "see, universal basic income doesn't work!" because it's not nearly the same thing.
- user5994461 9y agoIt's already known. The rents will increase to consume about half of the additional income.
- CaptSpify 9y agoThat's a pretty bold claim. Source?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- craftyguy 9y ago> Anyone who claims they know what possible outcomes we can expect from UBI is deluding themselves What does it mean then when you proceed immediately after that statement to describe a possible outcome?
- crusso 9y agoYou see this faulty reasoning a lot when discussing religion: We can't know or understand God any more than a cockroach can understand an iPhone - but we will now tell you all about God, what he wants from us, and how to obtain the everlasting rewards that he has promised to believers.
- bobwaycott 9y agoIn this instance, nothing more than the parent reinforcing its point by saying, “it could be [whatever random possibilities] ... we don’t know.” The parent is not claiming to know possible outcomes, but specifically calling out that we don’t know what the outcomes will or could be.
- d393k02397 9y agoHis selection of examples is telling. Curation is the message.
- loa_in_ 9y agoParent doesn't "Claim he knows". He said "it could be [some positive outcome as opposed to the statistically prevalent negative predictions]"
- smokeyj 9y agoHow is this not dogecoin part two? What has this contract done to alter the laws of supply and demand? There's no doubt digital contracts are the future of social contracts. This contract however is not it.
- idlewords 9y agoMy second and third reactions were also to hate this.
- nck4222 9y agoI suppose I was a bit hyperbolic, and I'm sure there are some legitimate issues with this. But in my defense when I posted this, this post was over an hour old, and there 10-15 comments on here by people who clearly hadn't even read 10% of the paper. They were just instantly dismissive about it when they didn't even understand the basic concepts the paper was outlining. I was just hoping to promote some reasonable discussion on it. Why do you hate it?
- mundo 9y agoI don't think it's being hated on because HN is closed-minded, I think it's being hated on because it's half-baked. After Bob and Alice get done exchanging coins to prove the concept, where would they actually spend them? Why would any business accept these coins? Why would anyone ever exchange a dollar for any quantity of them? I like UBI schemes and I like novel cryptocurrencies but either I'm missing something big or this one is still at the stoned-dorm-room-conversation stage.
- nkoren 9y agoThose questions are no different than what people used to ask of Bitcoin. No different at all.
- chickenfries 9y agoYep, and you still can't use BTC like a currency for anything meaningful.
- nck4222 9y agoYet, people still find Bitcoin valuable. It turns out you might not need a large percentage of businesses to accept digital currency, in order for the currency to hold value.
- chickenfries 9y agoBTC doesn't "hold value" it fluctuates wildly. For a UBI to work people have to be able to actually spend the currency they receive. In places that people (especially the poor) actually spend their money. Let me know when the neighborhood bodega, grocery store, barber or daycare start accepting cryptocurrencies.
- nck4222 9y ago>For a UBI to work people have to be able to actually spend the currency they receive. I don't see why this is true. People were saying the same Bitcoin, yet people still use that, which is turning this conversation in to a circular argument. The truth is a UBI has never really been tested out in the world, it's all theoretical, and a cryptocurrency UBI even more so. I don't think it's right to just write it off completely without actually testing it. And by "hold value", i meant that humans find value in it. Although I admit that was a poor choice of words due to the traditional financial meaning.
- snarf21 9y agoIt is interesting but I haven't thought about it enough yet to comment fully. One of the hopefully benefits of UBI is that it enables huge amounts of volunteering in society. I'm actually working on a charity that approaches this specifically from that angle. It is a free platform and I'd be glad for more feedback. You can learn more here: http://thegoodloop.org http://thegoodloop.org