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The truth is nobody knows what will happen. Meanwhile people who have a risk tolerance and budget keep making money. The 'sane' people have missed out on some

The truth is nobody knows what will happen. Meanwhile people who have a risk tolerance and budget keep making money. The 'sane' people have missed out on some of the best returns in history. There is more there than you think, and everyone should investigate for themselves rather than having a knee-jerk reaction.

ivm 9y ago
Returns from greater fools? I'd better stay without profits than participate in a pyramid.
- etr-strike 9y ago
  Plenty of us find value in a currency that isn't controlled by a central authority and isn't subject to inflation. We're betting others who value saving over risking their savings in the stock market will also value such a currency. Plenty of us believe there's potential in programmable money. Certainly more potential than yet-another-social-media-platform-selling-ads. You're welcome to dismiss Bitcoin as a bubble. You don't, however, speak for everyone who finds legitimate reasons to get involved.
  - ivm 9y ago
    Do you mean savings in a single overvalued highly volatile $100bln commodity are more sustainable than savings in the overvalued international market diversified between sectors and countries?
    - etr-strike 9y ago
      Yes. In my opinion the diversified international market is being propped up by coordinated actions by the worlds central banks. These markets lost more than 50% of their value in 2008. Central banks are keeping them afloat at the expense of people trying to simply save their money and not take on debt. Janet Yellen recently expressed concern regarding the amount of debt in the economy. Apparently giving out loans at rates less than inflation causes a lot of malinvestment. Those I know investing in Bitcoin do so because it's the only asset that exists outside the system we have today. It's the escape hatch. The volatility of course concerns us, but we believe in the fundamental ideology and in the long term believe it'll change the world. The monetary policy we have today is, quite frankly, insane.
      - TimJYoung 9y ago
        People that purchase Bitcoin are not investing, they're gambling. It's unfortunate that this lesson wasn't learned from the very recent 2008 meltdown when many did the exact same thing with real estate. But, as you say, there's going to be a lot of mal-investment with so much cheap money floating around...
        etr-strike 9y ago
        I purchased Bitcoin to escape what I believe is a financial system based on fraud. Who are you to say what my motivations are for purchasing Bitcoin? Who are you to speak for everyone else deciding to purchase Bitcoin? It takes quite an ego to presume everyone buying hasn't researched what they're buying and are just mindless sheep hoping for a payday.
        TimJYoung 9y ago
        I didn't claim to know your motivations. You could be entirely earnest in your motivations, but that doesn't change the facts on the ground: your "escape" is up to its elbows in the same fraudulent financial system that you decry. It's cheap money looking for easy returns that is fueling Bitcoin's rise.
        etr-strike 9y ago
        "Cheap money" implies people are taking on debt to buy bitcoin. I see no evidence of this. Real estate, on the other hand...
        TimJYoung 9y ago
        So your position is that the world is awash in cheap money but Bitcoin, with its stratospheric rise, is the one thing that isn't a beneficiary of this cheap money ?
        9y ago
  - mars4rp 9y ago
    "and isn't subject to inflation" what do you call price of BC going up 16000 fold in 6 years??? the theory was you can buy the same good with the same amount of coin regardless of what dollar is doing, did that happen in practice? no, because no one knows true value of BC because there is no central authority. I am with you on hating the central authority but inflation part didn't work out as it was planned!
    - etr-strike 9y ago
      This is a rediculous argument. You can’t just introduce a radically new technology and currency to the market and expect it to instantly be priced at is true value. Give it time. Bitcoin is a populist movement. Eventually the market will find it’s correct value and volatility will decline (volatility in bitcoin has actually been declining for some time now).
      - y4mi 9y ago
        volatility has declined? are you for real? bitcoins were at 700 last year. And its 'value' dropped by 3000 just a few days ago, just to go back up. In what way has it dropped?
        hndamien 9y ago
        Percentages my friend.
    - jypepin 9y ago
      what you are mentioning is deflation, the opposite of inflation. there is a limited amount of bitcoins, so indeed it is indeed deflationary, unlike most fiat, that central authority keep printing anytime they need.
      - mars4rp 9y ago
        you are right, and why deflation better than inflation?
  - wehadfun 9y ago
    >isn't subject to inflation?
    - etr-strike 9y ago
      The USD is regularly debased to reward people who have taken on debt. Bitcoin, on the other hand, has a fixed supply that cannot be manipulated.
  - CPLX 9y ago
    > isn't subject to inflation lol
cm2187 9y ago
Madoff had pretty good returns too.
jeffwass 9y ago
> The 'sane' people have missed out on some of the best returns in history. Are these actual returns (ie, BTC sold for fiat) or paper returns on an assumption of market depth at current spot? Serious question. Most bitcoin enthusiasts I know are either still holding their bitcoin, or traded them for other cryptocurrencies. Few have crystallised their gains in fiat.
- JTon 9y ago
  Everyone I know in BTC cashed out months/years ago. Makes them feel sick thinking about what they've missed out on recently. But I keep telling them they made a the same decision any rational actor would
  - pyvpx 9y ago
    and those I know who still hold BTC, the few that have tried to cash out so far haven't received a single dollar, euro, yen, or pound.
    - look_lookatme 9y ago
      So if you transfer BTC into Coinbase, you can't get your money out?
      - RIMR 9y ago
        $10k at a time, unless you make some kind of agreement. There are also ATMs and other exchanges to tap. Cashing out a large sum is nearly impossible. If you have millions worth of BTC, it's better to just auction them off at a discount to a large buyer.
        etr-strike 9y ago
        To be clear: You can sell 100 btc today for USD. Coinbase will hold your USD (and the balance is insured). They will limit your withdraws to 10k, however. To take out more faster, you'll need to contact them and speak with a human. None of this seems unreasonable.
Balgair 9y ago
Puh-lease. Everyone knows what will happen.

ivm 9y ago

Returns from greater fools? I'd better stay without profits than participate in a pyramid.

etr-strike 9y ago
Plenty of us find value in a currency that isn't controlled by a central authority and isn't subject to inflation. We're betting others who value saving over risking their savings in the stock market will also value such a currency. Plenty of us believe there's potential in programmable money. Certainly more potential than yet-another-social-media-platform-selling-ads. You're welcome to dismiss Bitcoin as a bubble. You don't, however, speak for everyone who finds legitimate reasons to get involved.
- ivm 9y ago
  Do you mean savings in a single overvalued highly volatile $100bln commodity are more sustainable than savings in the overvalued international market diversified between sectors and countries?
  - etr-strike 9y ago
    Yes. In my opinion the diversified international market is being propped up by coordinated actions by the worlds central banks. These markets lost more than 50% of their value in 2008. Central banks are keeping them afloat at the expense of people trying to simply save their money and not take on debt. Janet Yellen recently expressed concern regarding the amount of debt in the economy. Apparently giving out loans at rates less than inflation causes a lot of malinvestment. Those I know investing in Bitcoin do so because it's the only asset that exists outside the system we have today. It's the escape hatch. The volatility of course concerns us, but we believe in the fundamental ideology and in the long term believe it'll change the world. The monetary policy we have today is, quite frankly, insane.
    - TimJYoung 9y ago
      People that purchase Bitcoin are not investing, they're gambling. It's unfortunate that this lesson wasn't learned from the very recent 2008 meltdown when many did the exact same thing with real estate. But, as you say, there's going to be a lot of mal-investment with so much cheap money floating around...
      - etr-strike 9y ago
        I purchased Bitcoin to escape what I believe is a financial system based on fraud. Who are you to say what my motivations are for purchasing Bitcoin? Who are you to speak for everyone else deciding to purchase Bitcoin? It takes quite an ego to presume everyone buying hasn't researched what they're buying and are just mindless sheep hoping for a payday.
        TimJYoung 9y ago
        I didn't claim to know your motivations. You could be entirely earnest in your motivations, but that doesn't change the facts on the ground: your "escape" is up to its elbows in the same fraudulent financial system that you decry. It's cheap money looking for easy returns that is fueling Bitcoin's rise.
        etr-strike 9y ago
        "Cheap money" implies people are taking on debt to buy bitcoin. I see no evidence of this. Real estate, on the other hand...
        TimJYoung 9y ago
        So your position is that the world is awash in cheap money but Bitcoin, with its stratospheric rise, is the one thing that isn't a beneficiary of this cheap money ?
        9y ago
- mars4rp 9y ago
  "and isn't subject to inflation" what do you call price of BC going up 16000 fold in 6 years??? the theory was you can buy the same good with the same amount of coin regardless of what dollar is doing, did that happen in practice? no, because no one knows true value of BC because there is no central authority. I am with you on hating the central authority but inflation part didn't work out as it was planned!
  - etr-strike 9y ago
    This is a rediculous argument. You can’t just introduce a radically new technology and currency to the market and expect it to instantly be priced at is true value. Give it time. Bitcoin is a populist movement. Eventually the market will find it’s correct value and volatility will decline (volatility in bitcoin has actually been declining for some time now).
    - y4mi 9y ago
      volatility has declined? are you for real? bitcoins were at 700 last year. And its 'value' dropped by 3000 just a few days ago, just to go back up. In what way has it dropped?
      - hndamien 9y ago
        Percentages my friend.
  - jypepin 9y ago
    what you are mentioning is deflation, the opposite of inflation. there is a limited amount of bitcoins, so indeed it is indeed deflationary, unlike most fiat, that central authority keep printing anytime they need.
    - mars4rp 9y ago
      you are right, and why deflation better than inflation?
- wehadfun 9y ago
  >isn't subject to inflation?
  - etr-strike 9y ago
    The USD is regularly debased to reward people who have taken on debt. Bitcoin, on the other hand, has a fixed supply that cannot be manipulated.
- CPLX 9y ago
  > isn't subject to inflation lol

cm2187 9y ago

Madoff had pretty good returns too.

jeffwass 9y ago

> The 'sane' people have missed out on some of the best returns in history. Are these actual returns (ie, BTC sold for fiat) or paper returns on an assumption of market depth at current spot? Serious question. Most bitcoin enthusiasts I know are either still holding their bitcoin, or traded them for other cryptocurrencies. Few have crystallised their gains in fiat.

JTon 9y ago
Everyone I know in BTC cashed out months/years ago. Makes them feel sick thinking about what they've missed out on recently. But I keep telling them they made a the same decision any rational actor would
- pyvpx 9y ago
  and those I know who still hold BTC, the few that have tried to cash out so far haven't received a single dollar, euro, yen, or pound.
  - look_lookatme 9y ago
    So if you transfer BTC into Coinbase, you can't get your money out?
    - RIMR 9y ago
      $10k at a time, unless you make some kind of agreement. There are also ATMs and other exchanges to tap. Cashing out a large sum is nearly impossible. If you have millions worth of BTC, it's better to just auction them off at a discount to a large buyer.
      - etr-strike 9y ago
        To be clear: You can sell 100 btc today for USD. Coinbase will hold your USD (and the balance is insured). They will limit your withdraws to 10k, however. To take out more faster, you'll need to contact them and speak with a human. None of this seems unreasonable.

Balgair 9y ago

Puh-lease. Everyone knows what will happen.