4 ms·
Writing style guides are a thing & a thing that have been around for a long time. All 3 of the style guides I’ve had reason to use (AP, MLA & CMS) all require
by kasey_junk 9y ago
Writing style guides are a thing & a thing that have been around for a long time. All 3 of the style guides I’ve had reason to use (AP, MLA & CMS) all require that quoted material be direct quotes.
Now, I think that it’s a fair argument that a web forum needn’t have the same formality as other written word, but your assertion that “it’s not how anyone writes” is clearly untrue.
And just as a single data point, I expect when someone uses quotes even on the web that they are asserting a verbatim quote.
- pvg 9y agokasey_junk said "I'm a stupid moron with an ugly face and a big butt and a my butt smells and I like to kiss my own butt". Should this not include quotes, even though you didn't say it? "AP, MLA & CMS" are an absurd counterpoint that falls well within 'that's not how anyone writes'. They are, if anything, lengthy exceptions to how anyone writes. It's a deeply silly argument and my point is 'an internet messageboard should not be regulating punctuation'. It should, as this one usually does, try to regulate behaviour.
- kasey_junk 9y agoIt should include those quotes if you are asserting that I said it.
- pvg 9y agoThe HN rule is never use quotes to say something someone didn't say. It seems, unless I'm misunderstanding you, you agree this is a silly rule.
- tptacek 9y agoI don't think that's the rule? I think the rule is if you're using quotes and it's ambiguous as to whether the person the quotes are attributed to actually said it, then the person better have actually said it. (For what it's worth: this little subthread is about 10x more interesting than the story and the rest of the thread it's attached to).
- pvg 9y agoThat's as generous an interpretation of the rule as mine is overly literal. But it's worth comparing it to some of the other rules: Don't be an ass. Don't call other people asses. Don't complain about votes. And then: Some weird thing about quotes we can't even sort out as well-intentioned nerds who love to talk about rules. I don't think that's a good rule. I think what it's trying to address is probably a good rule. But it's addressing it in the dumbest possible way.
- tptacek 9y agoIt is also the case that this was something Paul Graham was idiosyncratically peevish about; at one point, he attempted a unified definition of trolling that amounted to "forcing one to rebut something they hadn't said" --- which obviously isn't the definition of trolling.
- pvg 9y agoYep, 'idiosyncratic' is a good way to summarize it. At the end of the day, it's just another dumb thing to yell at people about - it doesn't improve discourse or 'stimulate intellectual curiosity'. As an inveterate rule-yeller myself, the fewer of these the better.
- mirimir 9y agoYes, but then you should include something like "might as well have said". Or "like".
- glenstein 9y agoI agree with pvg. The notion that a comment on HN is, in some sense, in poor form because it doesn't adhere to AP/MLA/CMS specifications is ridiculous. Nobody agreed to that, and I doubt anyone would even agree that that's accepted informally as a norm.
- kasey_junk 9y agoI didn’t mean to imply that the web should follow those style guides (and said as much). I was refuting his claim that no one expects that quotes imply an assertion of verbatim quote. I certainly default to assuming it does and in many contexts it is an explicit rule.
- glenstein 9y agoSo you don't think that a comment thread like this one is a context where MLA guidelines would yield the most reasonable interpretation of what someone is saying?
- pvg 9y agoI was refuting his claim that no one expects that quotes imply an assertion of verbatim quote. I don't understand how you've refuted that while also saying they sometimes don't. Are we arguing about contexts here? My claim is almost trivial - nobody reasonably familiar with English thinks quotes imply a verbatim quote. That's just not what quotes are for.
- kasey_junk 9y agoI guess I’m far out of the mainstream then. If you put quotes around something and attribute it to someone or some text, I assume you are asserting a verbatim quote, either in the context of web forums, business communications or more formal writing covered by a style guide. In the context of fiction, if you put quotes around something I assume it is to declare that the character is saying exactly what is quoted. That your position is that I’m in the minority on this is doubly surprising to me given that’s what all the style guides and my high school English teachers taught me.