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This is not an "HN-ism". It is not proper to use quotation marks when paraphrasing. Doing so is explicitly attributing words to someone that they did not say.

This is not an "HN-ism". It is not proper to use quotation marks when paraphrasing. Doing so is explicitly attributing words to someone that they did not say. > not how writing or paraphrasing works anywhere else That's simply false. If you want to use Reddit et al as your standard reference on the use of language and punctuation, have at it. But you can't reasonably expect every other forum to use that lowest common denominator. Railing against simple, longstanding house rules like this is just pointless contrarianism.

pvg 9y ago
That's simply false. No, it isn't. I'm saying what somebody else is saying, in their voice. This goes in quotes, because it's someone else's speech, even if it's my version of their speech. The fact that they didn't actually say it comes from context. Punctuation is not semantic markup. This doesn't come from reddit, it comes from, you know, the way people actually write. The fact that it requires repeated and lengthy explanations is a pretty decent indication it's not how anyone else writes.
- kasey_junk 9y ago
  Writing style guides are a thing & a thing that have been around for a long time. All 3 of the style guides I’ve had reason to use (AP, MLA & CMS) all require that quoted material be direct quotes. Now, I think that it’s a fair argument that a web forum needn’t have the same formality as other written word, but your assertion that “it’s not how anyone writes” is clearly untrue. And just as a single data point, I expect when someone uses quotes even on the web that they are asserting a verbatim quote.
  - pvg 9y ago
    kasey_junk said "I'm a stupid moron with an ugly face and a big butt and a my butt smells and I like to kiss my own butt". Should this not include quotes, even though you didn't say it? "AP, MLA & CMS" are an absurd counterpoint that falls well within 'that's not how anyone writes'. They are, if anything, lengthy exceptions to how anyone writes. It's a deeply silly argument and my point is 'an internet messageboard should not be regulating punctuation'. It should, as this one usually does, try to regulate behaviour.
    - kasey_junk 9y ago
      It should include those quotes if you are asserting that I said it.
      - pvg 9y ago
        The HN rule is never use quotes to say something someone didn't say. It seems, unless I'm misunderstanding you, you agree this is a silly rule.
        tptacek 9y ago
        I don't think that's the rule? I think the rule is if you're using quotes and it's ambiguous as to whether the person the quotes are attributed to actually said it, then the person better have actually said it. (For what it's worth: this little subthread is about 10x more interesting than the story and the rest of the thread it's attached to).
        pvg 9y ago
        That's as generous an interpretation of the rule as mine is overly literal. But it's worth comparing it to some of the other rules: Don't be an ass. Don't call other people asses. Don't complain about votes. And then: Some weird thing about quotes we can't even sort out as well-intentioned nerds who love to talk about rules. I don't think that's a good rule. I think what it's trying to address is probably a good rule. But it's addressing it in the dumbest possible way.
        tptacek 9y ago
        It is also the case that this was something Paul Graham was idiosyncratically peevish about; at one point, he attempted a unified definition of trolling that amounted to "forcing one to rebut something they hadn't said" --- which obviously isn't the definition of trolling.
        9y ago
  - glenstein 9y ago
    I agree with pvg. The notion that a comment on HN is, in some sense, in poor form because it doesn't adhere to AP/MLA/CMS specifications is ridiculous. Nobody agreed to that, and I doubt anyone would even agree that that's accepted informally as a norm.
    - kasey_junk 9y ago
      I didn’t mean to imply that the web should follow those style guides (and said as much). I was refuting his claim that no one expects that quotes imply an assertion of verbatim quote. I certainly default to assuming it does and in many contexts it is an explicit rule.
      - glenstein 9y ago
        So you don't think that a comment thread like this one is a context where MLA guidelines would yield the most reasonable interpretation of what someone is saying?
      - pvg 9y ago
        I was refuting his claim that no one expects that quotes imply an assertion of verbatim quote. I don't understand how you've refuted that while also saying they sometimes don't. Are we arguing about contexts here? My claim is almost trivial - nobody reasonably familiar with English thinks quotes imply a verbatim quote. That's just not what quotes are for.
        kasey_junk 9y ago
        I guess I’m far out of the mainstream then. If you put quotes around something and attribute it to someone or some text, I assume you are asserting a verbatim quote, either in the context of web forums, business communications or more formal writing covered by a style guide. In the context of fiction, if you put quotes around something I assume it is to declare that the character is saying exactly what is quoted. That your position is that I’m in the minority on this is doubly surprising to me given that’s what all the style guides and my high school English teachers taught me.
- mirimir 9y ago
  > I'm saying what somebody else is saying, in their voice. This goes in quotes, because it's someone else's speech, even if it's my version of their speech. That's fine, when you're writing fiction. But in most online forums, fiction is frowned upon.
  - pvg 9y ago
    I don't think paraphrasing is limited to fiction any more than metaphor or hyperbole or idiom are. And those are in online forums all the durned time!
    - mirimir 9y ago
      Sure, but it's polite to say when you're not quoting literally. Because that's the default expectation.
      - glenstein 9y ago
        You don't need to fall back to a "default expectation" when usage is adequately indicated by context and by good faith efforts to interpret a statement in it's most reasonable form. Nobody confused it for a literal quote, nor did anybody feel it caused any misunderstanding, and those realities preempt any need to appeal to a default expectation.
        mirimir 9y ago
        In your case, I do agree that it was obviously not a literal quote. However, by the time I joined the thread, the topic had become more generalized. Still, it would have been clearer to say something like "Exactly. And the response, which amounts to 'we're not trying to sell you a modem, we're just encouraging you to strongly consider buying a new one', is such a hair-splittingly asinine response considering the rather serious breach of trust posed by the notification system." Also, for what it's worth, I do agree 100% with your argument there :)
        glenstein 9y ago
glenstein 9y ago
>If you want to use Reddit et al as your standard reference on the use of language and punctuation, have at it. In terms of what contexts one should keep in mind when interpreting comments with good faith to come to a most reasonable interpretation of what they are saying, the way language is used on reddit is probably a much more reasonable benchmark than MLA style guides.

pvg 9y ago

That's simply false. No, it isn't. I'm saying what somebody else is saying, in their voice. This goes in quotes, because it's someone else's speech, even if it's my version of their speech. The fact that they didn't actually say it comes from context. Punctuation is not semantic markup. This doesn't come from reddit, it comes from, you know, the way people actually write. The fact that it requires repeated and lengthy explanations is a pretty decent indication it's not how anyone else writes.

kasey_junk 9y ago
Writing style guides are a thing & a thing that have been around for a long time. All 3 of the style guides I’ve had reason to use (AP, MLA & CMS) all require that quoted material be direct quotes. Now, I think that it’s a fair argument that a web forum needn’t have the same formality as other written word, but your assertion that “it’s not how anyone writes” is clearly untrue. And just as a single data point, I expect when someone uses quotes even on the web that they are asserting a verbatim quote.
- pvg 9y ago
  kasey_junk said "I'm a stupid moron with an ugly face and a big butt and a my butt smells and I like to kiss my own butt". Should this not include quotes, even though you didn't say it? "AP, MLA & CMS" are an absurd counterpoint that falls well within 'that's not how anyone writes'. They are, if anything, lengthy exceptions to how anyone writes. It's a deeply silly argument and my point is 'an internet messageboard should not be regulating punctuation'. It should, as this one usually does, try to regulate behaviour.
  - kasey_junk 9y ago
    It should include those quotes if you are asserting that I said it.
    - pvg 9y ago
      The HN rule is never use quotes to say something someone didn't say. It seems, unless I'm misunderstanding you, you agree this is a silly rule.
      - tptacek 9y ago
        I don't think that's the rule? I think the rule is if you're using quotes and it's ambiguous as to whether the person the quotes are attributed to actually said it, then the person better have actually said it. (For what it's worth: this little subthread is about 10x more interesting than the story and the rest of the thread it's attached to).
        pvg 9y ago
        That's as generous an interpretation of the rule as mine is overly literal. But it's worth comparing it to some of the other rules: Don't be an ass. Don't call other people asses. Don't complain about votes. And then: Some weird thing about quotes we can't even sort out as well-intentioned nerds who love to talk about rules. I don't think that's a good rule. I think what it's trying to address is probably a good rule. But it's addressing it in the dumbest possible way.
        tptacek 9y ago
        It is also the case that this was something Paul Graham was idiosyncratically peevish about; at one point, he attempted a unified definition of trolling that amounted to "forcing one to rebut something they hadn't said" --- which obviously isn't the definition of trolling.
        9y ago
- glenstein 9y ago
  I agree with pvg. The notion that a comment on HN is, in some sense, in poor form because it doesn't adhere to AP/MLA/CMS specifications is ridiculous. Nobody agreed to that, and I doubt anyone would even agree that that's accepted informally as a norm.
  - kasey_junk 9y ago
    I didn’t mean to imply that the web should follow those style guides (and said as much). I was refuting his claim that no one expects that quotes imply an assertion of verbatim quote. I certainly default to assuming it does and in many contexts it is an explicit rule.
    - glenstein 9y ago
      So you don't think that a comment thread like this one is a context where MLA guidelines would yield the most reasonable interpretation of what someone is saying?
    - pvg 9y ago
      I was refuting his claim that no one expects that quotes imply an assertion of verbatim quote. I don't understand how you've refuted that while also saying they sometimes don't. Are we arguing about contexts here? My claim is almost trivial - nobody reasonably familiar with English thinks quotes imply a verbatim quote. That's just not what quotes are for.
      - kasey_junk 9y ago
        I guess I’m far out of the mainstream then. If you put quotes around something and attribute it to someone or some text, I assume you are asserting a verbatim quote, either in the context of web forums, business communications or more formal writing covered by a style guide. In the context of fiction, if you put quotes around something I assume it is to declare that the character is saying exactly what is quoted. That your position is that I’m in the minority on this is doubly surprising to me given that’s what all the style guides and my high school English teachers taught me.
mirimir 9y ago
> I'm saying what somebody else is saying, in their voice. This goes in quotes, because it's someone else's speech, even if it's my version of their speech. That's fine, when you're writing fiction. But in most online forums, fiction is frowned upon.
- pvg 9y ago
  I don't think paraphrasing is limited to fiction any more than metaphor or hyperbole or idiom are. And those are in online forums all the durned time!
  - mirimir 9y ago
    Sure, but it's polite to say when you're not quoting literally. Because that's the default expectation.
    - glenstein 9y ago
      You don't need to fall back to a "default expectation" when usage is adequately indicated by context and by good faith efforts to interpret a statement in it's most reasonable form. Nobody confused it for a literal quote, nor did anybody feel it caused any misunderstanding, and those realities preempt any need to appeal to a default expectation.
      - mirimir 9y ago
        In your case, I do agree that it was obviously not a literal quote. However, by the time I joined the thread, the topic had become more generalized. Still, it would have been clearer to say something like "Exactly. And the response, which amounts to 'we're not trying to sell you a modem, we're just encouraging you to strongly consider buying a new one', is such a hair-splittingly asinine response considering the rather serious breach of trust posed by the notification system." Also, for what it's worth, I do agree 100% with your argument there :)
      - glenstein 9y ago

glenstein 9y ago

>If you want to use Reddit et al as your standard reference on the use of language and punctuation, have at it. In terms of what contexts one should keep in mind when interpreting comments with good faith to come to a most reasonable interpretation of what they are saying, the way language is used on reddit is probably a much more reasonable benchmark than MLA style guides.