23 ms·

Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

• gesman 9y ago
  Your words: "hate", "resent", "stressing", "hard time", etc... Change you thinking pattern, start thinking about what you love. What do you love to do? Then start doing it. "Love" is a key. You can start right now.
  • doglover7869 9y ago
    Best comment I've read in HN so far
  • kd5bjo 9y ago
    Note that this may entail using your job as a means to fund what you actually love to do.
  • jressey 9y ago
    While I agree with this, it's really only easy to recognize this after you've figured it out. I also want to emphasize I'm in a position now with equity do not adhere to the philosophy below. Focus on enjoying the people you work with and spend less energy thinking about your work. Stressing over work is a fool's game unless you have skin in it. I had a pretty low point in my career and I simply changed my focus to collecting as much money from the wealthy bosses as I could while providing as little value as I could. After all, that's what they're trying to do on the other side of the relationship. Now again, what I have said is easy to grok and enact once you've had some success. I don't advise this attitude for folks just entering the industry, but after 5-10 years you'd be amazed at just how valuable you are, even when not really working too hard.
    • amiuba 9y ago
      > changed my focus to collecting as much money from the wealthy bosses as I could while providing as little value as I could. I thought about this and tried it this past year. It didn't go well and my performance review was abysmal. Some of my colleagues hate my guts because they feel like they're doing all the work and I'm not. For example, I never do overtime especially when it's to meet unrealistic arbitrary deadlines. But they do and we meet the deadline, and this is why we keep having those deadlines: management knows they can keep doing it and someone will roll over to make it happen. "attaboy, great job on giving your life away this week, thank you for the new Porsche" How do you pull it off without your colleagues hating you?
      • mattgreenrocks 9y ago
        Work somewhere where there aren’t clueless people? You can only fix so much of a company’s culture.
      • brokenmachine 9y ago
        > changed my focus to collecting as much money from the wealthy bosses as I could while providing as little value as I could. This sounds like a bad idea. I always try to collect as much money as I can while providing a fair amount of value. You'll probably end up shooting yourself in the foot if you're providing little value to a company. > It didn't go well and my performance review was abysmal. Some of my colleagues hate my guts because they feel like they're doing all the work and I'm not. If you're going to do this, you are going to need to own it and not be concerned that sheep are going to hate you for not being a sheep. Also understand that the company is never going to choose a non-sheep over a sheep that will kill themselves for the company, so your performance will (in their opinion) suffer. Best option IMO is to try not to care if your colleagues hate you for stupid reasons that are none of their business. They should be hating their management for having unfair expectations of your team. My work colleagues are generally not my friends and I'm not too concerned with whether they like me or not, although obviously I would rather they did, and generally I'd say that they do like me. If they hated me for not doing overtime, then that's their problem.
• techjuice 9y ago
  If you are not the type of person to run your own business then you would need to get a job working for someone else. Now it seems the issue is not you really working for someone else, but not properly being compensated for performance. Now, the good thing is until you have enough time, money and feel comfortable taking the plunge into being your own boss you can work on gaining the skills by working for someone else. If you are working at a company that does not conduct additional compensation based on performance leave the company for one that does. You owe nothing to a company that is not properly compensating you for the value you provide, especially as your time increases there and you are a top performer. There are companies out there or should I say sections within companies (even the big ones) that will normally do the following: Annual raise based on performance, annual bonus based on performance, spot bonuses, quarterly bonuses and increasing your base salary to keep competitive with the market (i.e. if your showing mass improvement beyond what you were originally hired for or your actions keep improving your coworkers productivity you could see your base salary increased by 10 to 20 percent or more to better place your skills and talents within the company and insure you are being properly compensated). A company that cares about attracting top talent, growing and retaining top talent will properly compensate you to where you could technically become rich within (within reason of their income and the value you bring to the table) a few years of working there. As the good companies see that the value you bring to the company increases their bottom line and will make sure to keep your pockets filled with cash so you do not have to worry about it and can spend time doing what you do and have fun doing it. I would recommend you do some searching for areas near you and compare your skills, talents and abilities to what the average household incomes are near your next possible employer - https://www.incomebyzipcode.com/ https://www.incomebyzipcode.com/ Insure that what you ask for in salary is a minimum of what the average household income is for the zip code of your employer. Also ask about compensation based on performance and how any bonuses, raises or salary adjustments are calculated. If the potential employer looks at you funny and doesn't know what your talking about move on to the next potential employer until you find one that does not just pay a base salary and does raises but also pays bonuses based on performance.
  • amiuba 9y ago
    I negotiated my initial salary well (from talking with other colleagues who also shared their salary), but the only thing my company does is an annual performance review and a raise based on that. The raise is a few percents and that's it. No bonus or profit sharing. I have yet to work somewhere that gives bonuses. Based on my experience, it isn't that common here it seems (Canada). My current base salary is a tad more than the median household income for my city. You make a good point that while I'm employed, I'm getting paid to learn some of the skills I'll need to become an independent developer. What I still don't know is how to go from employee to independent: where do you get clients?
• makotech222 9y ago
  Congratulations, you have discovered socialism. Most people find extreme injustice in seeing the value of their labor being stolen by the capitalist class. Socialism is an economic system that does away with the employer-employee distinction and allows all workers to take ownership of their own labor. In practice, this means the democratization of the workplace, and the end to the autocratic workplace. Edit: To actually answer your question, perhaps you should think about politics, and fight for a future where no one should suffer like this.
  • weirdstuff 9y ago
    "Democracy at Work" http://www.democracyatwork.info/ http://www.democracyatwork.info/
  • TomMarius 9y ago
    I seriously hope you're joking. Can't be sure nowadays.
  • outside1234 9y ago
    Anyone who thinks this is a great idea should take a trip to Cuba. Seriously. I had the same affliction and about 8 days into Cuba I was totally cured.
    • hateduser2 9y ago
      For those of us who can't go to Cuba (I'm sure there are a lot of us), could you say more about what was wrong with it? Also there are lots of other factors I'm sure that could contribute besides just that its socialist.
    • weirdstuff 9y ago
      Cuba is a cherry-picked example and is misleading. Other socialist countries that are doing better: China; Denmark; Finland; Netherlands; Canada; Sweden; Norway; Ireland. Don't forget Cuba has been forced into economic isolation by the US. And places like Venezuela and Detroit were overly dependent on too few industries and are plagued by massive wealth inequality. You can also find persistent systemic poverty in capitalism: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0185084916300330 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0185084916...
• JauntTrooper 9y ago
  Consider a commissioned sales role. There are many companies out there with commission-heavy 'eat-what-you kill' culture. If you're good at your job and bring in revenue, you make a lot of money and probably get a lot of autonomy. It's not my cup of tea, but it might fit with what you're looking for.
• icedchai 9y ago
  You might make a good independent consultant. You don't need an idea, but you do need to be able to find work, actually get stuff done reliably, and, oh yeah, remember to send invoices.
  • amelius 9y ago
    Why is it so difficult to find a service that finds work for a consultant?
• chickenfries 9y ago
  I just started contracting in the public sector and I don't know if this honeymoon will last but so far, it's amazing how much more I care about the problems they are solving compared to working in the private sector. It's work that I think needs to be done. "He who has a Why? in life can tolerate almost any How?"
  • amiuba 9y ago
    How did you get the gig? It seems my local and national government (Canada) only hires FTEs. I've applied before but was never successful.
    • chickenfries 9y ago
      Knew someone who was working as a contractor. I would try trying to find people working in the public sector through the internet (they're on twitter, meetup and linkedin too) and ask them if they have any openings. It's definitely easier to get brought on as a contractor than an FTE, and it seems to me that the FTE jobs go to contractors who have proven themselves first.
• golergka 9y ago
  Seems that you're unsatisfied with the risk/reward balance, but you're not yet ready to go all the way to the other side. What about working as early employee or a co-founder on a new venture? It won't be as hard as being the founder and CEO, but you'll still exchange some stability and guaranteed reward right now for a chance of greater reward in the future - and you'll be able to see direct results of your actions on the whole company and your stake in it.
• senko 9y ago
  I've never been able to work for someone else for too long (starts being noticable after a year). So I started freelancing / consulting. You don't have to be an entrepreneur and build a product or a company. It's not a grind (or at least it doesn't have to be - you can choose how much effort you want to spend). But you do need to take business side of things - finding clients, making them pay, making sure your financials are in order and other non-"tech" tasks.
• d0m 9y ago
  Can be a freelancer. You're your own boss, you can pick who you want to work with and you're in control of your time, but you don't need to risk it all on a "risky big idea".
• amelius 9y ago
  > Has anyone ever felt this way? What did you do about it and how do you cope with it? Yes, same here. Good question!
• jogjayr 9y ago
  Look into the financial independence/retire early (FIRE) communities. Here's a good starting point. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-sim... It's important to note that (Mustachian) financial independence isn't about making money so you can retire (despite the name). It's about designing a lifestyle for yourself that makes you happy without the need to buy things or experiences to sustain that feeling of happiness. The rest is just bookkeeping. And (as a neat side-benefit) you generally become healthier and fitter, gain more skills, and reduce your consumption levels, thereby helping save the planet. Knowing that you're building a future life for yourself makes the hard days at work easier to take. Once you have the financial security of being FI/RE you are free to take career risks or try things that interest you but may not have much money-making potential.
  • amiuba 9y ago
    FI/RE is a tremendous idea, and that's the thing that motivates me. I've been working on it for a few years now, but it's still far away. But it feels like it's not enough, I don't know that I can keep eating sh*t for another 7 years. We're saving about 55% of our net income after rent, we're pretty frugal to begin with in a high col area (not in the US). It's definitely part of the solution and I can't wait to quit working but it's not enough to carry me on its own. If it were I wouldn't feel this way. Do you have this sentiment too?
    • bigmanwalter 9y ago
      I briefly considered FI/RE but like you said, couldn't handle eating shit for so long. Life is for living on your own terms.
      • amiuba 9y ago
        Aiming for FI only means that you'll eat the same shit but for much less time (i.e. 10 years vs 40+ years)
        • 9y ago
• mattmcknight 9y ago
  Join a startup early enough where you get enough equity to feel like an owner. Just search on Angelist or similar sites, such as the job postings on here. Start a small services business- or freelance. If you're just worried about unpaid overtime, an hourly bill rate gives you a little more freedom. You do have to do a bit more sales work to find customers, but there are numerous platforms to assist with that. While both of these options have higher potential returns, they also have higher risks. What it sounds like is that you are not factoring into your analysis is the low-risk nature of what you are doing. You are trading off "the grind" and that risk for a lower maximum payoff, but a higher minimum payoff. If that's actually what you want, just keep job hopping every couple of years as you get sick of things and ask for a 10% raise instead of 2-3%. Maybe the real problem is presuming that what you are doing is bad when it is really the path that is best for you. Not everyone is meant to find a place they love and stay there forever. Even when people do find such a place, the place changes as time passes, and they change as well, so what was once right does not always stay that way. Not everyone is set up to take the stress of having 95% of your net worth tied up in a venture that is likely to go to $0. Hopefully, Model 3 production continues to ramp up, and you can get your Tesla anyway.
• paulmatthijs 9y ago
  There’s a thing between being entrepeneurship and working for a company: freelancing. It’s for those that feel no attachment to a company, but do have a very developed skill set or trade. In our free market economy, there will always be a system where someone hires you to create value, which costs less than it makes them, in the end. If you want a bigger slice of that pie, you need to make it a viable business case. Hiring a top freelancer to create value, without the hassle for the employer, is worth a markup. Being scarce helps too. To me, it sounds like your main issue is that you feel you don’t get enough of that added value you bring. If normal compensation schemes don’t cut it for you, you surely must be able to ask a major hourly rate as a freelancer, or a royalty.
  • TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    Freelancing by contracting is risky. The company you work for maintains the right to fire you for no reason whatsoever, and you would not be able to earn unemployment. Also, unless you are a particularly skilled employee or are working in a hot market, you probably won't be paid as much after considering the fact that you'll have to pay for your own healthcare, your own liability insurance, do your own taxes, and deal with the considerable gaps in employment since freelancers are some of the first that are fired at a company. Freelancing may work well for the top 5% or 10%, but it's not a good thing for most.
    • jaredklewis 9y ago
      While there is obviously some risk, in my experience it is very well compensated. If anything, I think an irrational level risk aversion means there are basically not enough good freelancers to go around and the demand/pay is high. The standard formula I recommend to a new freelancer is (what-you-would-make-as-salary / 50 / 5 / 8 * 2) = hourly rate. Anything less is undercharging. So if you would make 100k in salary, you can’t charge less than $100/hour. This is an absolute floor. If you follow that formula, you’ll be able to cover the healthcare, tax accountant, gaps between work, and other expenses and still make your base salary. But the ceiling is much higher. For a company, hiring a full time employee is just too much risk. You have a few hours of interviews to determine if they will be a good match, and if you are wrong, it is an extremely expensive mistake. Likewise if things slow down, you’ll have no flexible capacity. Freelancers are a dream come true. Also, in my experience, companies do not think of freelancer rates in the same way as salaries. Freelancers are not on the organizational chart as it were. Whereas standard HR hires and the attached salaries come with a load of political and ego driven baggage, freelancers are thought about more like buying a new office printer. If there is a need and the budget, the company will hire you and you might be making 3x what the project lead makes.
• cellis 9y ago
  Well, unless you win the lottery or get an inheritance, you have to work for someone else, in the US at least. There's no way around that. So in that case, you should try to find a job that you loathe the least. I suppose there are other options, like begging -- but that's still working to convince people to give you money, or welfare / disability -- again, same issue. No matter what the arrangement, until the end of your days you will have to justify your consumption of resources to your fellow humans. I'm reminded by 2 quotes that may be of use to you. The first, by Paul Graham, who founded this forum: "Startups are not magic. They don't change the laws of wealth creation. They just represent a point at the far end of the curve. There is a conservation law at work here: if you want to make a million dollars, you have to endure a million dollars' worth of pain. For example, one way to make a million dollars would be to work for the Post Office your whole life, and save every penny of your salary. Imagine the stress of working for the Post Office for fifty years. In a startup you compress all this stress into three or four years. You do tend to get a certain bulk discount if you buy the economy-size pain, but you can't evade the fundamental conservation law. If starting a startup were easy, everyone would do it." And the second, by Mr. Money Mustache: "In real life (even New York City real life), you get paid for getting really difficult shit done, better than anybody else can do it."
• hateduser2 9y ago
  I don't know why people take it on its face that hating their job is something that is fixed, and not changeable. What if rather than seek a different lifestyle, you try to learn to love your job and be ok with working under others? Why does everyone assume your feelings as they are are ok, in the sense that they shouldn't be worked on and navigated. Does everyone here just work off their first impression, for instance, that they wouldn't consider their feelings the problem on occasion?
• ryanwaggoner 9y ago
  Public sector employee plus FIRE sounds like a great combo to try. Maybe freelancing too but I think that’s closer to entrepreneurship than some here are willing to admit.
  • amiuba 9y ago
    Can you do it though? Public sector men's that you're paid less, a third of your pay is out away in a pension you cant touch until you turn 65 (if it's still there then). I've always wondered about it because I'd rather work at making people's life better and it feels like it's what most of government jobs stand for.
    • ryanwaggoner 9y ago
      Public sector can actually pay pretty well. It really depends on the job. Top performers can do better in the private market, but money isn’t everything. Maybe OP will need to take a paycut to feel better about life :)
• arximboldi 9y ago
  I felt similarly often, even though I was working for a great company with great products and with a very humane way of working. At some point I just could not stand the worker-owner fundamental power imbalance. There is a lot of pretending in our industry that this conflict does not exist, which often ends up in quite schizophrenic logic. I had to go. And Since I don't want to inflict such pain in other people, become the typical entrepreneur (i.e. a capitalist) was not an option either. My solution for now is to freelance and consulting. It comes with a hole different set of contradictions, but it is a good learning experience and great way to experiment and explore what you want to do. It also buys me time to do open-source and research, but it requires more self-motivation. My long-term dream is to start a worker-owned coop with other people in the future.
  • WaxProlix 9y ago
    I think I feel very similarly to you in a lot of ways. How did you get started? How do you see a consulting co-operative working? I'd be interested in hearing about your approach, what's worked and what hasn't, etc.
    • arximboldi 9y ago
      Hey! To you and Amiuba. I did get started into freelancing slowly. I had money saved when I quit my job and I took things slowly. I don't use freelancing websites. For marketing I use conferences, user-conferences and open-source. I am still in a good relationship with my last employer and I do freelance work for them too. Wrt the coop, one of my motivations is this Spanish open-source coop which has been running for quite a while and does excellent work: https://www.igalia.com/ https://www.igalia.com/ When doing research on the topic I found this document you may find interesting too "Technology freelancer's guide to starting worker cooperative": https://www.techworker.coop/resources/technology-freelancers-guide-starting-worker-cooperative https://www.techworker.coop/resources/technology-freelancers...
      • bigmanwalter 9y ago
        Hey, I'm a freelance developer based in Montreal, Canada who is also incredibly interested in building out a freelancer/webdev co-op. Would love to hear more about your ideas and what direction you're interested in taking it :) Also, any tips on how to find clients at conferences? I've been to a few but never seem to meet anyone who's actually searching for a vendor. Most of my clients have come through my extended friends/family network. Happy to keep this discussion on HN so that others get benefit from it, but if you want to take it private my email is e@ericwaldman.ca
• somequixote 9y ago
  I have some experience with this feeling and for me it comes from mismatched expectations. I believed that simply getting into the workforce was my goal, the proper goal, and that would be a satisfying end. At some point in the working life some people (you!) become acutely aware that satisfaction and purpose matter. Now you have to reach outside of everything you have tried and everything you were taught to find something you actually care about. Take up hobbies, personal projects, travel, and through trial and error find a way to connect your talents with a meaningful end. Most importantly, you will have to solve this yourself. Friends online can't tell you what you want any better than your boss can!
• jstewartmobile 9y ago
  You're probably looking at the wrong thing here. People who enjoy what they're doing typically look past how mightily life, the government, and the suits are screwing them. In my own business, I absolutely hate the admin tasks, but the people and the actual productive work more than make up for it. Try to find something that you actually enjoy doing. The rest will probably take care of itself.
• jventura 9y ago
  > This thinking is hurting me though because it makes every job I ever had barely tolerable, slowly creeping towards miserable after enough time. Profound changes in life are not easy, and feeling miserable is a sign that you probably have to change something.. Personally, I believe that people that are willing to change their lifes when circunstances ask for it are courageous. Most people will keep feeling miserable by inertia and fear of change. As a little bit of more practical advice, have you considered going freelance or teaching? Something similar to what you're feeling now also happened to me, then I went freelancing and am currently teaching. I'm immenselly happier and get to learn lots of new things so I can be a better teacher.. Wish you good luck!
  • amiuba 9y ago
    I have considered freelancing, but I don't know where to start. The only place I know of is fiver and elance which have pretty bad reputation and where I couldn't charge enough for it to be viable. Any insight on how to execute the shift and find your first customer?
• robot 9y ago
  You make yourself unhappy by focusing on what your boss or company owners are doing. Don't think about them, they are external to you. Focus on what you want or like to do. You can try starting a consultancy business. Start as a freelance and grow that. Anything you do you must work hard and create value for others. If you do this consistently you will eventually move into a position where you are comfortable. The best way is to start by doing what you like and engages you, and at the same time the resulting work creates value for others. This doesn't have to be a startup with a product, consulting is always easier to start.
  • amiuba 9y ago
    That's the thing though: how do you start? Where do you find clients? I obviously can't go after any of my current employer's clients, I don't have friends who studied CS and work at prestigious companies... How do you get started?
    • robot 9y ago
      Identify who would need your service, learn and do sales. Make sure you believe you have a great service. If not identify your greatest skill and improve it. Books are generally great. Here is a great sales book: https://www.amazon.com/SPIN-Selling-Neil-Rackham/dp/0070511136/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1512949073&sr=8-1&keywords=spin+selling https://www.amazon.com/SPIN-Selling-Neil-Rackham/dp/00705111... If doing sales sounds tough, it will start tough and then get easier. If people ignore you just keep going. Build something for someone for free (assuming you are in a programming or similar field). When selling the most important part is the immediate benefit you are providing - will you reduce your customer's cost, improve their sales, solve some problem they spend too much time? RE: how do you find clients? What field are you in? Who would need your service? Identify 1000 potential buyers and contact them. Contact them by email, phone, use forums, go to conferences, talk to people one on one. Introduce your benefit to them.. Make sure you contact people who seem to have budget and good things going on. Build a website on wordpress that describes your service. Hang out in places where your audience might be. There is a lot to talk about but most importantly you "do" something consistently, improve it and keep going if you get Nos. If you stop doing you will never get there, and if you keep doing you will definitely get somewhere good, then great.
• mchannon 9y ago
  This leaves you with a few options that haven't been brought up. Have you considered working for a nonprofit or a governmental agency? The pay probably isn't there, but some people wouldn't want to work anywhere else. It can be tremendously rewarding fighting for your favorite causes rather than your boss' latest second house, as you said. Not all big company corporate cultures are created equal, either. A lot of people love working for the big 5 and even though you're still making a boss rich (as in, richer than anyone else in the history of time rich), these bosses don't waste their time flaunting their wealth in front of you and demoralizing you. Change the world, do interesting work, and get rich far faster than an average startup.
• wellboy 9y ago
  Yes, freelancing, but then you will probably feel dissatisfied that you're not soing something meaningful and that the lack of socializing depresses you. I believe the problem isn't the work, but inside of you. Have you tried improving your own life? Getting a meaningful hobby, volunteering, building a meaningful circle of friends, moving to the city that you love most, finding a significant other that you love above anything else, starting a family. Those things really fill your life with meaning. Apart from that, if you don't want to be working at a company, you need to build your freelancing agency and you need to be good at it, so that after a few years, you have a client base that pays really well and other people do the work for you, so that you only need to work 10-20h per week or less. Then you can focus on the things above that really matter.
• guywithaphone 9y ago
  I am in the same boat. As someone in IT, I find that most organizations don't value my incredible achievements... this year, I made a decent sum of money selling a seasonal product. My long term goal is to start one or more businesses with the blueprint from "the 4 hour workweek". I have started to become an entrepreneur because there a billion different ways to make the world a better place (some are marketable) and in part because I want to be rewarded for the value i produce instead of the time I put in.
• DoreenMichele 9y ago
  I have mostly managed to avoid working a normal job. Here are some things I have done: College. It let me continue to live with parents and not get a job. Military spouse and full time parent. It let me see the world, but when I got divorced, starting a career from scratch was challenging. Also, my quality of life went way up with getting a job and no longer being a homemakers. Homemaking isn't exactly a profession that gets a lot of respect or pays particularly well and the retirement plan tends to suck. I have been doing freelance work in recent years. I will recommend the book "How to survive without a salary" by Charles Long. If you can pay off all your debts, pay cash for a cheap house somewhere with low taxes, raise a garden, etc, you can get off the hamster wheel and do as you choose to a large degree. But it takes a lot of time to arrange and most folks don't actually want to make those sorts of sacrifices. This is part of why so many people buy lottery tickets. Wanting an answer with no down side is a popular desire. (No I am absolutely not being snarky. This is reality. Finding one's "dream job" and being jazzed to go to work every day is the exception, not the rule.)
• cynusx 9y ago
  You seem very focussed on the money-side of the equation, however for most people job satisfaction consists of more things like feeling part of a team, being friends with colleagues and growing as an individual. e.g. some companies enable you to solve problems you cannot do anywhere else, or allow you responsibility that you wouldn't have anywhere else. Maybe the easiest to identify what would make you more satisfied with a job is to think what job you would sign up for if you suddenly have all your money needs solved (aka win the lottery). The high risk of becoming an entrepreneur is exactly why the labour market is not allocating profits to employees, if it were very easy to build a successful company that can employ others then a lot of people would go and do just that. consequently, the war for talent would ensure profits go to the few people willing to work for somebody else.
  • amiuba 9y ago
    That's the thing... I've worked at many different places (startups come and go fast), and I've never worked on something that I felt very strongly about. I was always solving someone else's problems while making someone else money. If I had enough money to live, I would quit writing software for money instantly. I have a few side projects in various states of neglect and I'd much rather work on these for free than solving yet another meaningless corporate or business problem. But I can't do that yet, because I like sleeping in a bed under a roof and eating food. I get the risk/reward thing, but I think that one side has too much power and reaps too much profit from it.
• martin1975 9y ago
  > I say don't change much because a 2-3% raise once in a > while is nice, but it's nothing in comparison to the > thousands/millions extra it will make the company, while the > only result for me is that I get to keep my job and do more > of that. Have you considered moving into sales? With your technical background as an engineer, you can certainly forage into sales with the right mentorship. Sales is about the only type of 'job' that you will feel a proportionate reward to the effort you put in, meaning, you get more if you sell more (e.g. work longer/harder), whereas there's no financial incentive to work longer if you are salaried. Of course, with sales you pay a different price - time-wise. You may have to be on the road a lot and work longer hours. But many people who are now considered very well off got that way through sales (e.g. John Doerr, who was one of Intel's greatest sales people). Another way, and this is a tall order, is to find something your company (or the company's customer rather) needs, and try to get something started/prototyped before it becomes an actual project, then pitch that to management/sales/marketing. This way, you create value that was going to be created anyway on the company's dime, but you do this on your own time and hopefully in time for the company to adopt it and transition into your product idea. I know at least a few projects like this where I work, it's just that I value family time above extra cash that isn't really going to make a massive difference to my lifestyle. I'm talking about software here mostly, as the barrier of entry to creating a software prototype of something is usually lower than creating a hardware prototype of something, depending on application of course. Notice however, even if you do create something that's of value while working for someone else - you still end up having to 'sell' it to stakeholders within the company who can further give you a budget to polish it... or worst case, you may have to kill it if they don't like it, or don't approve of your methods- mostly because anytime you code something that involves using the company's source code as a base, they get to claim ownership of the IP (software). You read your employment contract, right? This way, by putting above and beyond your 40 hr/week, you can most assuredly extract promotions and/or additional equity, without taking on the massive stress or risk of venturing out on your own. If you find it too time consuming to code on your own time, there's always options to hire foreign talent from countries with a lower standard of living to help you with coding - though that has its risks too, it's most definitely a viable avenue. I've done that for people who needed me to build simple websites for a lot cheaper than if I had done the website myself as a US-based engineer and usually marked up their rate by 20% or so. I've seen outfits mark up 100% or more... it all depends on what's acceptable to the engineer you're hiring, your customer and ultimately your take. As you hopefully intuited, if you want the rewards to be proportionate to your effort instead of salaried, it almost always involves some kind of salesmanship in addition to being an astute coder/engineer/techie. Yet another way is to becomes a serial start-up-eneur. Continue joining startups until one of them hits it off. This is less risk, but many people have gotten well off this way too. I'm sure there are other ways, I just can't think of them now :)
• itamarst 9y ago
  Duplicating other points, to some extent: 1. You can reduce your working hours. E.g. you can negotiate a 4-day workweek. This means more time to do what you want. 2. You can pursue early retirement. Reducing your spending gives you more in the bank, and eventually you can not work. In the short term it improves your negotiating position. 3. You can find a job pursuing a goal you care about. E.g. work for a non-profit, or a government agency, or a company where you care about the outcomes separate from making money. 4. You can start a business not based on a Great Idea, but based on research. More likely to succeed, too (https://stackingthebricks.com/ https://stackingthebricks.com/ has a bunch of useful advice). You can also pursue some or all of these at the same time. Self-promotion: I've written a book about how you can reach a sane workweek, whatever that means to you. You can read about and get a free excerpt here: https://codewithoutrules.com/saneworkweek/ https://codewithoutrules.com/saneworkweek/.
  • amiuba 9y ago
    Thanks, your blog has pretty good posts, I enjoy reading them.
• JeanMarcS 9y ago
  Whatever you’ll do for work, you always end up working for someone. A boss, clients, customers... Being a freelancer ? Your clients will be the one you’ll work for. And as some others said: they’ll make money on your work. Being an employee ? That’s your case, you know how it works. So entrepreneur ? You say you’re not comfortable with it. And at the end, you’ll have to please your customers or else you will otherwise not earn enough money. So I guess you have to choose the less hurting path for you. The good point is that if you want to change your situation, you can start doing it without leaving your current job and see if it leads somewhere before making a drastically decision which will impact your life. Try a side project, or several. Start looking for what exists in freelancing on your domain of expertise. The first step is always the toughest one. You’ve got a paid job. Try!
• liquidcool 9y ago
  You mention a couple times that your work has a significant impact on the company's sales/revenue. If you can actually quantify the value of your work, you are in a much stronger negotiating position with your employer and others. It is rarely done by engineers and sets you apart. In addition to fair compensation, you mention "stressing over issues." I've noticed more than once that I've been stressed over problems my clients didn't really care about. It's not easy, but it's important to keep your stress levels in line with management's (or lower).
  • beckler 9y ago
    I believe there is a reason why it's rarely done by engineers, and that is because most management types view engineers as easily replaceable. Asking for a raise can put a target on your back when things get tight.
  • amiuba 9y ago
    Value provided to my employer is more or less known: they sell my time for about 5x what they pay me (software consultancy). The stress is over issues that the client is pressuring us to solve before a deadline, that usually requires overtime. I always refuse to do overtime, and try to work less rather than more. This creates a situation where my colleagues resent me because it feels like I'm not doing my share since they roll over and do whatever it takes to meet the deadline. And the client never learns, expecting overtime. As a result, my last performance review wasn't great because my employer would prefer that I worked as much or more than my colleagues while only paying me 40h (clients are billed by the week, not by the hour.) I'm not in the top performers at my job either, I'd say I'm average at best. I don't feel like my bargaining position is particularly strong at the moment with this employer, and I negotiated my initial salary well from what I gather from colleagues I've discussed comp with.
    • liquidcool 9y ago
      Wow, 5X! I have a small consultancy and most engineers are surprised to learn that 2X is typical. I do know some of the large management consulting firms have very high margins, especially on junior programmers, which you're clearly not. Specialist knowledge will also raise rates. But I suspect they have high churn with abuse like that. Do they have an awesome sales/marketing team, or are those rates typical for your industry? If it's typical, you might consider freelancing. Or finding a small consultancy that will treat you better and take care of sales for you. I'll say I was once unhappy and asked to be laid off. They told me no, essentially because I was a cash cow. You think your bargaining position is tough, but if your utilization rate is 100% and their margin is 80%, if you leave they are guaranteed to lose at least 160 billable hours (up to 480) while they replace you. I'm assuming you're not in gaming or a glamour industry where there is a line out the door to replace you.
• dba7dba 9y ago
  You are preaching to the choir brother. I am feeling the exact same sentiment more strongly every day. In the past, working for a corporation meant some kind of loyalty in return, resulting in pension or still keeping you on payroll even if company was doing not so well. Now, at the first sign of decrease in revenue, employees are cut. And I'm not even talking about company in danger of going under or having a negative revenue year. Employees are cut because revenue growth goes from say 5% to 2% and the execs have to do something to look like they are trying. You can be the only one that knows how to do a certain thing in a company to ship that product or come up with a solution that saves the company millions, but all you get in return is 'good job' (and the implicit understanding that you should be thankful you have a job). And the owners/ceos walk away with millions. So what is the action plan? 1. Do not wallow in bitterness. Do something productive/positive about it instead. 2. Do not think that you aren't an entrepreneur material. No such thing exists. 3. You don't have to run a tech company. Someone posted on HN that an ex-coworker was making far more money with far more freedom running coin laundries. 4. Look into real estate? 5. There are ways to start a company so you can be your own boss. 6. If you are in tech, brush up some new techs and look for cofounder. 7. How do you get the motivation to do all above? Channel your anger/hatred/resentment for having to work for someone else (enriching that person) into doing something for yourself. 8. You may not be successful, but at least you can enjoy working for yourself. I'm only realizing this a little late in life, but better late than never.
• jacknews 9y ago
  My boss arrived at work in a brand new lamborghini. I said "Wow that's an amazing car!" He replied "if you work hard, strive for excellence and hit your targets, l'll get another one next year!"
  • amiuba 9y ago
    Haha yes, I love this joke. I've heard it before and that's how it feels.
    • CyberFonic 9y ago
      I thought the punch line was: "I will get my mistress one too!"
      • jacknews 9y ago
        haha, yes that's even better.
• 0x4f3759df 9y ago
  Definitely understand where you are coming from. Not sure about your specifics, but you could try the Mr. Money Mustache route; spend less money, then you wouldn't need to work as much
  • amiuba 9y ago
    Definitely doing this already, but there is still several years to go.
• contingencies 9y ago
  You can become an academic, monk or makerspace operator if you enjoy research and teaching. You can also just take a break to recharge, eg. personally I find bicycle touring to be great. You could find something creative that you enjoy and just work on that until you find a way to channel it in to income, for example through sales or teaching. You could also consider channeling your frustrations in corporate profit allocation to creating new approaches to transparent management practices.
• thirdworlds 9y ago
  Remote work has been my saviour — infinite travel possibilities, disconnected from the 9–5 monotony, only need to fake enthusiasm for 5–60m a day max. Helps to see the position as purely a means to an end — pays the bills and allows for unbridled freedom.
  • pinchharmonic 9y ago
    How did you first take the jump to get into remote work?
• tyingq 9y ago
  You could try being a staff augmentation contractor, working mostly 6 to 12 month gigs. Search any job board looking for keywords like contract or 1099. You'll end up working at big companies, but are generally exempted from a lot of the bullshit. Things like company kool-aid meetings, non technical training, performance reviews, etc. It's sort of in between running your own company and being an employee. The risk profile is higher. You might see significant downtime between gigs. So you'll have to be disciplined about putting money aside.
  • shortoncash 9y ago
    Have you done this? The job board advertised rates seem a bit on the low side in relation to the downtime risk. (I'm only asking because I'm curious, not because your advice sounds bad or anything.)
    • tyingq 9y ago
      I have. Staff aug, regular employee, and run my own company.
  • amiuba 9y ago
    I've done staff augs before, I hope to never do staff augs again. You are not respected, and have to absorb all the cost of poor decisions made before your time.
• SyneRyder 9y ago
  It seems that most of your objection is to the company and it's goals, but not actually to working for other people. Have you considered working for a non-profit or charity, or a company where the products / services align with your values? Maybe grab yourself a copy of Anita Roddick's "Business As Unusual", or "Ben & Jerry's Double Dip" to read about businesses that use capitalism to also have a social impact. On the not-for-profit side, Muhammad Yunus' "Banker To The Poor". Then start thinking about the kinds of companies or organizations you might like to work for.
• aSockPuppeteer 9y ago
  I would advise against 1099 until you are thoroughly read up on the subject. There are calculators out there and percentages for employee versus 1099 but really it comes down to risk. You could be out of contract, injure yourself, and need to find income in that state. If you can mitigate that risk then you are ready. In the meantime you may want to try a few courses in business or entrepreneurial skills at a local college or online.
• PerfectElement 9y ago
  Whenever I felt like that, I used a mental hack to make me feel better. I would sit down and start to think (or write) about all the things I am grateful for. Coming from a third world country, it was easy to see how good it was to be highly employable and live in a relatively safe society. This would instantly put me in a good mood and make me feel proud of my achievements. Being grateful doesn't mean you should accept your lot in life and stop striving for improvements. It will just help you make peace with where you are at right now, so you can focus on your next steps without the negative pressure. Today I run my own business and make more money than I ever expected, and I still use this method whenever I'm having a bad day.
  • noir_lord 9y ago
    I do something very similar, I also take pride in my work, not the generic "of course I take pride in my work" but the pride you get from knowing you did the best that you could do given the constraints (whatever they may be) you had. That way I'm comparing what I did against what was reasonably doable. Sure there are things I'd love to do but management constraints/budget or temporal constraints simply ruled them out, if I explained that to (former bosses, current boss is a diamond) management clearly then who cares, I did my job. I can live with that for an above average salary and a 40 hour work week.
• xiphias 9y ago
  For me it took a few years of non-payed vacation to realize that it's more important how I invest my money than how much I earn at a workplace. Creating a startup is just even more working. It's so much easier to invest well, make sure that you have your stable job, and actually you don't have to care about getting a raise anymore, just wait until you have enough money to retire. Also investing is great if you have a stable job, as you don't need to save much cash (which I was doing before investing). As for investment, I love Bitcoin, as I believe it solves the biggest problem with our financial system, but other new tech companies may be interesting for you as well.
• volgo 9y ago
  Have you tried changing jobs? There’s a huge variety of companies out there and some of them do really amazing things and have competent leaders. I used to think every company is the same deadend desk job until I hit an amazing one - let’s me work remote most of the week, insane compensation, managers who don’t micromanage, and a sense of mission in all my teammates. Take your time to find the right one, you’ll be glad you did
• PaulRobinson 9y ago
  You might be conflating a few things here. 1. Be careful not to confuse hating working for somebody else with what sounds to me like the edges of depression. 2. Entrepreneurship doesn't have to be a grind 3. You don't have to get your personal pride and accomplishment through work So you could talk to somebody about your feelings and might find some coping strategies. Let's suppose this isn't clinical depression and in fact your job is shit and you want to do something else. Think about your hobbies: if you could do something around one of them for a job, what would you do? Do you want to get a job in industry doing that, or perhaps use your skills to build something yourself? Now, don't think building something yourself has to involve raising money, hiring staff or any of that jazz. Could you freelance? Could you produce a product on your own? Something physical or a SaaS or app perhaps? Could you start a blog or vlog? What about a book? Most likely outcome is that this will _not_ make you enough cash to live off, but now you're doing something that gives you pride and a sense of accomplishment and in due course it _might_ make enough money for you to life off. In either scenario it sounds like you're in a better place. Good luck, godspeed, etc.
  • RickS 9y ago
    > 1. Be careful not to confuse hating working for somebody else with what sounds to me like the edges of depression. Exactly on point. Overindexing on the futility of the future while simultaneously minimizing the plausibility of positive outcomes. I have these same thoughts, and these same problems. The OP's post has left my mouth many times. Strong odds it's depression. It's not your job. No matter where you go, there you are.
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• lumberjack 9y ago
  Have you tried working in the public sector or for a non-profit, like a university? Also you could try, although this is extremely rare, but there exist some cooperative software development firms.
• fallingfrog 9y ago
  M C P C' M' Seriously though revolutions have happened because of this feeling, so you're far from alone. I've been struggling with this for all my life and yeah at some point I'll go nuts if I don't own my own work. I'm not advocating communism as the right solution for the disenchantment of having your labor exploited- I am saying that I think the frustration of that lies beneath both entrepreneurship and most anti capitalist movements.
• johnnycarcin 9y ago
  This is great timing as I've been rolling this around in my head for about 6 months now, thanks for posting it. I have yet to find a good exit plan. My issue isn't really the work itself, it is the risk that comes with stepping out on your own when you have a family to support. I have seen firsthand what a failed start-up/small company can do to a family (twice actually) and it scares the shit out of me. That's one of the reasons I am so hesitant to live off of savings while the work pipeline builds. On top of that, my family and I have grown accustomed to our current income level which I don't think I could keep up as a consultant/freelancer/etc, at least for the first year or so. For me the question is: is my full blown happiness, with my career, worth potentially risking our future and current lifestyle? It is a really hard question to answer...
• melsumner 9y ago
  1. Take up kickboxing 2. Consider that you probably can't change someone else but you can probably change your own response. In other words, figure out how to quickly identify the stuff that is total BS, actively choose not to stress about it, and train yourself to focus on the parts of it that you genuinely enjoy. 3. Know that you're not alone.
• RickS 9y ago
  I'm late to this thread, but I hope you read this: If you go freelance, watch the fuck out. This post reads like you're depressed with the direction of your life, and are bucketing the causes into your workplace because it's intellectually easy to do. I don't mean that to be disparaging - I say it with authority because I do it too, and your post reads exactly like the monologue that runs through my head every day. I was a freelancer for many years. It's 85% pipeline management - networking, lining up your next gigs months in advance, and tending to relationships with existing customers to turn them into repeat customers. The actual "do the work" part is trivially simple in comparison. The personality types that write posts like these tend to do poorly with the high-extroversion high-orderliness traits that make or break a successful freelancing career. Be extremely fearful of the scenario where you quit your job with spite in ambition's clothing, and find yourself struggling to make money because you thought that making money freelancing was about output, not network. My advice? Talk to somebody professional and really do an insanely deep autopsy on why you hate working the way you do. I think there are hard answers to be unearthed. Now if only I could take the advice I'm writing to myself as much as I am to you...
  • vanderreeah 9y ago
    I know your comment is well-meaning, and the warning about the necessity of networking is sound, but I think you're projecting a little. It seems presumptuous to read irrationality (i.e. something unexamined in his psyche, which is what I take you to mean when you talk about seeing a professional) into what seems to me to be a 100% sane assessment of his situation. Nothing could be a more accurate picture of most of our working lives than the OP's post: spending 48 weeks a year in the offices of a company getting richer from our energy expenditure, an expenditure which in any just society would benefit us, or at least benefit us and others in equitable proportions. He shouldn't feel personal pride in that, he shouldn't feel happy that his boss is profiting from overtime, he should feel miserable at this situation. It's a miserable situation to be in, and most of us are in it.
    • amiuba 9y ago
      > a 100% sane assessment of his situation. Nothing could be a more accurate picture of most of our working lives than the OP's post To be fair, it is extremely hard to tell, even for me (OP). Sometimes I feel like I'm nuts because everyone else seems to get by and just deal with it. Am I so special or fragile that I can't just suck it up and do like everyone else? No matter what angle I look at it though, I don't see how this could not make anyone at least a little bit sick. Spending 40 years (or 10 years if you're aiming for FI) using your life and health away to make some stranger even richer while the best you can hope for is keeping your job. It's absurd, and I can't understand how a lifetime of taking one for the team doesn't make people revolt. But maybe we're the crazy ones because we're the minority, and can't adapt. I honestly don't know and struggle with this question.
• etdeagle 9y ago
  Try to switch your company and see it as your vehicle to navigate the cosmos. Don't hesitate to ask your coworkers for the new things you want in your life and see how it becomes business projects. Like many people, managers are systems to be used to organize. Coworkers organize your surroundings, managers organize your upper layers.
• erikb 9y ago
  Learn to work for someone else. Seriously there is no way out of it. Even a CEO works for someone else (investors/customers/shareholders). The blog posts that tell you otherwise are trying to bullshit the naive. Everybody is working for someone. The king/dictator you heard about that lives such a good life without considering others? He certainly considers his generals, and he certainly considers whoever provides the money to pay for his generals. You could basically decide if you want to decline ever taking responsibility for other people and work in such a job where someone else will organize your food and bed. But then again we can't really choose to have no responsibility to other people (parents, friends) either. So in that case quite a few important people in your life would consider you a dick for good reasons. Therefore in the end, learn to accept it. This is part of life.
  • erikb 9y ago
    btw why does this downvoted? I was in the same situation when I was 20. Now with 32 I got used to working for someone else, as much as one can get used to it. I make more money, have a better office, better living area, more valuable connections. It's totally worth it. On the other hand one of my best friends, same age, totally struggles with the concept, barely has any money, often doesn't even has a stable place to sleep. One can fight against it, but life will fight back.
• hawksy 9y ago
  Two things you can do: 1) You can opt for job roles where your perks are directly linked to your efforts - eg: Sales, Marketing. 2) There are side projects which can get you really decent and increasing revenues. You need not be a big visionary and build a company around it but you with the help of some freelancers can manage it. I can help you with some ideas if you want.
  • amiuba 9y ago
    > I can help you with some ideas if you want. Sure, I'm always curious to hear ideas! Thanks
• matt_s 9y ago
  Oh yeah this sounds very familiar. Does it get to the point where you start resenting people in upper management because you think they literally do nothing and make more? I started having those thoughts when working at a Fortune 500 - I'd see VP's at the office for insane hours and not sure really what they did but they sure got their 5 figure bonuses, even when things didn't go well it seemed. I was an engineering manager and had to deal with upper management, bogus policies like only 10% of people can get a good raise, meetings about meetings, etc. Now I've gone back to software development without managing people and it is a relief. Think of all the things people in those other roles have to worry about: budgets, raises (or lack of), employee reviews, project planning, sales, hiring, firing, etc. You said that going through that grind of entrepreneurship isn't something that appeals to you. Take pride in the work you do, software engineering can be fun if you enjoy it. Sure it helps some rich person at the top, its the same everywhere though: pilots, carpenters, plumbers, accountants, etc. Be relieved you don't have to worry about all that other business stuff. If you find a place with good work/life balance then you can pursue things you are interested on your own time.
• sunstone 9y ago
  Get a license. Medical, legal, electrician, teacher, plumber whatever tickles your fancy. This typically gives you a secure occupation with a steady enough income and quite a bit of workplace independence.
• nikdaheratik 9y ago
  My work situation has been much less draining since moving to Australia. I think the biggest difference is that 6-12 month contract work is more common in tech jobs, and there are a lot more small companies where your contribution is bigger and feels more valued. The flip side to that is your work probably won't be seen outside of the small company unlike with huge corporations. I don't know that they have the equivalent of casual/agency contract work for developers in the U.S. I think the health insurance makes it a problem, but I liked it better than working for bigger companies because there's less BS and you can just take a month or so between gigs if you want. You're never going to get rich though and there's always the possiblity of not having anything for longer than you want.
• d9k 9y ago
  You should consider to read books written by Peter Gelderloos about social anarchism, for example "Anarchy works". At least you will meet with thoughts of people who have the same frustration as you have.
• Kaka4 9y ago
  I had also thought about this so many times. Working for the man who doesn't even care about his staff. One of my colleague has lost his job few weeks back. I don't know what he wants for us. But one thing for sure, he is arrogant and just care about himself and nobody else. I just don't want to work here and I'm looking for some new place when the right time is come. The day when I'll say enough is enough you jerk, I'm done here. I also have the fight yesterday with him and when I came home, I'm just screaming at everyone in my house. But than I Cam myself down and listen to a new song and I want to share with you here: http://www.lyricshawa.com/2017/12/bollywood-lyrics-akhil/ http://www.lyricshawa.com/2017/12/bollywood-lyrics-akhil/ Then I thought one day, I will muster some confidence to just quit this job and find a better one. But one thought that always come in my mind is this, What if that another organisation have the same boss like him. Haha.. I'm just little bit confused right now.
• strutteratlanta 9y ago
  I've spent the majority of my career feeling this way, OP, hopping jobs and feeling like a crazy person. I've left plum gigs at coveted companies; I've passed on opportunities that would have made me rich (could I have stuck with it). I've read and studied a ton of things to try to deal with it. At a high level, this article summarizes my angst. Maybe you'll benefit from it. It's about moving into management, but the ideas of deliverables and contributions might help you understand some things about you. "I no longer operated in my personal sweet spot, where my sense of accomplishment after closing a difficult sale or launching a new product was contingent on my having had a concrete deliverable and the sense that my efforts were integral to its success. Being a manager caused me to feel disconnected from what career analyst Daniel Pink has identified as the three primary motivators of behavior: autonomy, mastery and purpose. I had little autonomy, little interest in gaining mastery as a manager (in spite of myriad coaches), and felt dissociated from my true self." https://hbr.org/2012/12/what-if-you-dont-want-to-be-a https://hbr.org/2012/12/what-if-you-dont-want-to-be-a When I evaluate the jobs I've loved or hated using autonomy, mastery, and purpose, I can clearly see why I've loved or hated them. We'll all fall in different places on those three scales; what's right for me won't be right for you. But I need high levels of all three (and mastery is the really tricky one) or the job will slide towards the hated end of the continuum. Some of the many great books that have shaped my thinking: So Good They Can't Ignore You, Cal Newport Deep Work, Cal Newport Shop Class as Soulcraft, Matthew B. Crawford (that last one, watch out. you might never go back to work. But the chapter called "The Contradictions of the Cubicle" speaks volumes to me). There are many others, but I got the most benefit out of those three. Hope this is helpful in some way.
• ninjavis 9y ago
  I was in the same situation as you a while back. I do have some entrepreneurial spirit, and I'm working on my own project at the moment. But something that I am doing on the side for a while now that pays 5x more every month than I used to make at my web development job, is crypto mining and lending. I have been searching for highly reputable and transparent companies for a while before I got on board. I then found and am currently mining with Lifestyle Galaxy, and lending trading with USI Tech. Yes, it takes some money to start off with, but my initial capital has already been paid back and every day's payouts are pure profit. These companies also allow building networks as to grow your daily income even further. I'm making around $250 per day so far. If you'd like more information, don't hesitate to email ( ninjavis@gmail.com ) me and I'll send you some more information on how easy it is to get up and running etc.
• matumba 9y ago
  Have you considered working for an NGO or charity or something?