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“Faking It Till You Make It” Is Disingenuous

46 points by charlesbai 9y ago

j4ship 9y ago
its the same thing as "dress for the job want not the job you have" ... or "I think therefore I am" its a positive mind set. A couple of other ones: -Dont strike when the irons hot but make the iron hot by striking. -Law of Attraction guys, comeone , this is hacker news ... can you get a point simple point with out over complicating it. We are supposed to be good engineers here, we are over engineering this idea
pfarnsworth 9y ago
This is a ridiculous thing to write a blog post about. The point of the saying is to mean "Try new things with fake confidence until you have attained enough mastery to have real confidence." As with life, the saying works great for some things, but not so great for other things. If you want to be a comedian, some times it's better to just go up on stage and pretend you've already mastered it, until you do eventually become a master. Self-doubt will kill you, so fake yourself out and just go for it until you're actually good. If you want to be a doctor, then obviously it doesn't work as well.
nostrademons 9y ago
"Fake it till you make it" is usually applied to situations other than the one he describes. If you're already an employee on some project, working on a team that you trust and work well with, then sure, just ask your peers how to do it. At that point, you've already "made it". "Fake it till you make it" usually applies to "how do you get to that point?" If you're a fresh college grad with no particular accomplishments to your name, how do you convince people that they should invest time and energy teaching you the ropes so that you're even qualified to work on a team with peers who you can ask for help? Because the default answer when a stranger asks to pick your brain to get into a hot, highly-competitive field is usually "Yeah, sure, maybe when I get around to it", if you get an answer at all. And if you're asking for a job, where they pay you money, then unless you've carefully chosen a field where they're desperate for people regardless of your prior background, you're going to have a tough time demonstrating value without at least some form of "faking it", even if that's just networking politely, cold-calling, and doing some basic research on the companies you're applying to.
- euyyn 9y ago
  Worked wonders for me to get my girlfriend back in highschool too.
- whatshisface 9y ago
  > "faking it", even if that's just networking politely, cold-calling, and doing some basic research on the companies you're applying to. That's definitely not faking in any sense of the word! Well, I've really heard it three ways. "Fake it till you make it," can mean any of: - Slightly untrue positive thinking will help you build up enough confidence to get started. - Present yourself to other people with the confidence of someone who's already done what you want to convince them you can do. - Falsify your qualifications and dodge questions about what you've done in the past, don't worry it never catches up with you. I think 1. can work for some people, 2. works for essentially anyone in every situation, and 3. is very, very false.
  - nostrademons 9y ago
    I usually see it used in the sense of 1 & 2. 3 can work - I've seen a lot of people who get ahead, at least temporarily, by blatantly exaggerating their contributions and competency. It's taking a big risk, though, more than I'd be comfortable with in my own professional life, and these people often flame out spectacularly when it catches up with them.
- charlesbai 9y ago
  You know to be honest, even in your second scenario, I've found more success approaching others with the stance that you are a young, energetic, and driven student who has the potential to learn, willing to listen to the advice of the experienced, and an admittance to your own lack of concrete knowledge. For some particular case examples, "Faking it Till You Make It" may work better, but overall, the work relationships that are generated from being authentic tend to be more genuine and overall the other person seems more invested in your general learning and growth.
  - nostrademons 9y ago
figurehe4d 9y ago
Bad philosophy to lead your life with, but not a bad strategy to get ahead. In a hustle economy, that can get you far.
dsp1234 9y ago
but its not an effective strategy for learning. 'Fake it til you make it' is about getting access to opportunities you wouldn't generally have otherwise. It's not a learning strategy, so it's not surprising that it's not an effective learning strategy.
strathmeyer 9y ago
You're supposed to be faking feeling like you belong, that you are successful; not knowing something you don't.
oneweekwonder 9y ago
If you are in a small startup and there is no other peers to ask, and irc or so can not answer your questions. Your either gonna fake it and make it, or walk away from the computer. My so was surprised to here I "fake" my job... self thought tinkerer since my teens! Luckily I picked up a degree to prop my cv. But I'm still dev'ing like it is the teen days... maybe with a bit of git, ci, and devops sprinkled in between.
kingkawn 9y ago
Yes but it rhymes. Rhyming defeats all other reasoning processes by linguistic default
GrinningFool 9y ago
> I never liked this quote because it implies being something that you are not, which leads to disingenuous behaviour. I've always liked the quote, but I've also interpreted it differently than the author has. Rather than "pretend to be what you are not", I view it more like, "to be what you want, start being what you want and stick to it". That is, start doing the things that it requires. Commit to it - these are the things you do when you're alone as well as when others can see. Let it guide your decisions - you're changing yourself, and that takes a lot of conscious effort at first. I consider that as 'faking it' because it feels unnatural - the new behaviors feel like you're putting on act. As time goes on, this changes. Until one day, you realize that you've integrated that thing you wanted to be into who you actually are. [Or so it has worked out for me in cases that I've done it and stuck with it...]
- charlesbai 9y ago
  Ah I see, from this angle I can understand - the unnaturalness of new conscious behavioural changes. But overall, that is just discomfort. If you have internalized the values and your actions align with those values, I still do not view it as "faking" it per say. When learning how to swim for the first time, it may feel unnatural. But you are not faking it. You are trying something new, and you have the chance of failure (the source of the discomfort, possibly?) - but you are being true to the task at hand
  - khedoros1 9y ago
    Swimming is something you do. "A swimmer" is someone you are. A swimmer swims. If you can't already swim, you learn how to. But when you can swim, you aren't necessarily a swimmer yet. I don't think it's about some particular skill, but more about an identity. Taking on a new identity might involve learning some new skills, but those are just the prerequisites to even successfully "faking it". Put another way, it's more about establishing patterns of behavior. You start off making decisions consciously, and maybe even with difficulty, like "I'm going to get up at 6am, warm up, and swim 10 laps". And "I'm switching my diet to complement my new exercise routine". They'll start out feeling novel, like they're someone else's actions. Then eventually, they'll be your norm. They'll still take effort, but of course you'll make the effort, because "this is just what I do".
specialist 9y ago
How you talk changes how you think. I’ve reinvented myself multiple times. I highly recommend it. From article: ”I never liked this quote because it implies being something that you are not, which leads to disingenuous behaviour.” Some of us don’t like who we are. Some of us want to change. Need to change. And sometimes just want try on a new pair of shoes. I’ve posted comments before about how I mitigated my anger management problem(s) (abused as a child) and anxiety (chronic life threatening illnesses) by changing my language, my expectations, my habits, my monkey sphere roster. Works great. Each reboot takes about three years. The scary part is that most don’t remember changing. This is how propaganda works. Maybe cult indoctrination too (I believe, but cannnot prove). Sure, the power to change can be used for good or evil. And yet, choosing to be self-actualized is kinda awesome.
- nomel 9y ago
  I find this very interesting! In addition to your comment history (which I will dig through), are there any useful resources/tips/guides you would suggest?
  - specialist 9y ago
    Thanks. My journey started with "When Anger Hurts" http://a.co/6rE8whC http://a.co/6rE8whC TL;DR: Anger starts with expectations. To stop being angry, change your expectations. Worked great. Then I got stuck on changing my habits. I'd say (at best) I was "unangry". Which I decided wasn't good enough. Knowing that we can't unlearn habit, only replace them, I decided to pretend to be happy. A really big step for me, because I was of the belief that happy people were simple. But I was out of ideas. So I just started saying every thing was great, saying positive things about everything, etc. Initially, it was mostly sarcastic. Imagine my surprised when 3 years later I woke up feeling happy and ready to conquer the world. When did that happen!? The change was so gradual, I didn't even notice. Years later, I picked up "How the Way We Talk Can Change the Way We Work" http://a.co/gbBOkW1 http://a.co/gbBOkW1 which confirmed my personal experience with data, research. Much more has been written since, natch. I learned the bit about people not remembering changing their minds from Swarm Intelligence http://a.co/egfqiON http://a.co/egfqiON [2001] Of course, a lot more has been written since, like Democracy for Realists http://a.co/99XlVaB http://a.co/99XlVaB and everyone now noticing that Trump supporters have completely (and unknowingly) reversed their positions to conform.
anonemouse145 9y ago
Article is bad. But random thought: Fake it 'til you make it is a prime driver of wage differences between men and women. Many women I personally know have refused promotions and job offers because they don't feel ready, then complain that unfit men get the job. As if it's a mystery what happened. This also goes for young people. Sometimes getting in over your head and failing is a totally positive opportunity. Imagine if you could get hired somewhere above your level at Google for just one month, and how much you could learn there. Then you can take all that knowledge to your next job. Plus your resume says Google on it. For a lot of people fresh out of college, that would be a big plus. Don't be stupid, arrogance isn't helpful when it's something crucial like health care or safety inspections or your own education. But if it's a chance to make a few more bucks at your job, default to always take the chance when it's offered. Fortune favors the bold, and such.
j4ship 9y ago
ok so now the title ... is just useless at this point. This just in : the sky is blue
otakucode 9y ago
It was alright advice back in the day of factories where jobs generally fell into one of two camps... either you worked the production line with mindless repetitive labor, or you worked the office side which was just a contest of extroverted bullshit. Nowhere was it important for anyone to actually know anything. Worst case scenario is a quota slips by a bit. And everything was built based upon that being the dominant economic form of every company. Almost every single aspect of how modern companies are organized and work was designed to facilitate that factory mindset and we don't seem prepared to revisit it any time soon. The fact that now the assembly line is gone and the office has consumed it all and the only thing that matters at all is people knowing the right thing, making good judgments that can never be captured by a 'standard operating procedure', etc, doesn't seem to bother those in a position to do anything about it.
killjoywashere 9y ago
If "fake it till you make it" didn't work, there would be no doctors.
OtisS 9y ago
https://www.ted.com/talks/amy_cuddy_your_body_language_shapes_who_you_are https://www.ted.com/talks/amy_cuddy_your_body_language_shape... Interesting article supporting the idea, but changing the saying to, "Fake it until you become it".
- sigstoat 9y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_posing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_posing > Dana Carney, the lead author of the original article, issued a statement in 2016 abandoning the theory: "I do not believe that 'power pose effects' are real..."
tpurves 9y ago
Capable people suffer from imposter syndrome, inhibiting them from trying something new or difficult, or afraid of trying things they aren't god at yet. In this case "Fake it till you make it" is great advice. A different set of people may suffer from Dunning Kruger effect or delusions of grandeur, in which case it could be terrible advice.
amorphid 9y ago
> “Faking It Till You Make It” is Horrible Advice If you need a job & can't get a job interview without portraying your experience in a way that makes you sound more established than you are, how else are you supposed to survive? You have to tell people what they want to hear to get noticed, and sometimes that means faking it. Example: "I have worked with Java for 5 years." Does the interviewer need to know you touched Java once a year for 15 minutes 5 years in a row? You're not lying, and it's up to the interviewer to call you on your exaggeration. You gotta do what you gotta do to survive, and that's the way it is. That being said, I hate faking it, and I work hard to graduate to not faking it as fast as I can. But I would never be mad at someone for faking it. Outright lying I have zero tolerance for, but faking it is just fine.
fpisfun 9y ago
I feel like a lot of my managers throughout my career have been taking the fake it til you make it approach. I guess they've"made it" but they're still faking it in terms of having zero technical competency to manage projects
- internetman55 9y ago
  Yeah, I'm surprised that more people on here aren't making this connection.
jchw 9y ago
My interpretation is that it's more like the behavioral equivalent of "dress for the job you want" rather than being unethical. Always being open to learning new things, and being confident in your ability to overcome challenges.
michaelbuckbee 9y ago
There's a different phrase that I think makes more sense: "Act As If". People suffering from and trying to overcome Impostor Syndrome (the feeling that even though you are doing good work and have made some big accomplishments that you’re really an “impostor” at your job and people are going find out) are somewhat endemic to startup and tech circles. I think most of this is brought on by the rapidly changing toolsets, frameworks and technologies that you need to grapple with to put out a modern web app. (see: http://html9responsiveboilerstrapjs.com/ http://html9responsiveboilerstrapjs.com/) So, it was pretty surprising that the best advice that I’ve heard on the subject comes from Conan O’Brien. “In improvisational acting there is this great rule that I’ve used in my life: ‘Act As If’. Act as if this is completely normal. Of course I’m supposed to be interviewing Barack Obama. Of course I’m supposed to be playing guitar with Bruce Springsteen and of course there’s a big part of me inside that’s saying: ‘What are you talking about?’” From “Conan O’Brien Can’t Stop” — 21:00 The best entrepreneurs that I’ve worked with have (without naming it) exhibited this same pattern. 1. Recognize privately and intellectually that some big crazy thing is about to happen: a key investor meeting, a sales call to a big new client or interview with a major publication. 2. Do the hard work of preparing and making sure their product and facts are all in line. 3. Execute through their fears and anxieties by “acting as if” in public. Nothing is a cure all, but it is surprising how much even a simple phrase repeated to yourself can help.
seorphates 9y ago
Mhm.. you all work too much, or not enough.. still on fence. It's a motivational concept, a personal reinforcement of a goal you've set for yourself, slang for dropping in. You'll get hit but you want to get hit. You want this. Wanna be? Gotta be. Poke and go.
redler 9y ago
I always read this as meaning "if you want to do something that's uncomfortable for you, force yourself to do it — perform the actions mechanically — until it does become comfortable".
tzakrajs 9y ago
I think the OP is taking the phrase too literally. "Faking it" is a tongue-in-cheek expression to describe putting in tangible effort towards becoming the person you want to be.
enginaar 9y ago
I have to agree with the post. By faking it I'm limiting myself to learn from the first-hand experience only, you have no difference from the first person ever tried what you're trying to do. By asking/searching something you don't know, you are benefiting from a collected experience. Sapiens had the cognitive revolution, found out how to write and pass the information to other generations. Not using any of these tools available to me seems a bit going back in evolution, especially in an age where information is shared freely. Sure it would provide short-term gains and you may not take as long as the first person ever did but can I gain all the experience of lots of professionals working in CS gained in decades? How long will it take for me to reach a level of engineering by today's standards?
quadrangle 9y ago
This is a misunderstanding. The point of the quote is to get over imposter syndrome basically. It's about the fact that people actually perform better when they have some confidence. It's not actually used to suggest things like a quack acting as a doctor or anything truly dishonest. To be clear, the point in the article is still right: we actually will be less confident and have all sorts of problems when there's false pretenses. It is good to be honest and say things like "This is my first time doing this". We come across better and can actually be more confident without the pretense. "Fake it til you make it" in the end is as useful as "better to ask forgiveness than permission". Anyone just accepting this as good advice for whatever situation without other good judgment is a careless imbecile.
m3kw9 9y ago
I mean if it works and it isn’t really hurting anyone, say act confident till you can get there, why not?
logicallee 9y ago
1. select 2,000 random Bay Area 24-34 year-olds in the field of IT. 2. divide them into A and B, a test and a control group, obviously randomly. (1,000 each.) 3. Give them the same idea. They are to prepare pitch decks for it and get funding. 4. The test group is told to fake already having made a $10 million exit. They are not allowed to exactly lie, but their job is to go out of their way to give this impression. (Literally fake this impression by any means necessary short of outright fraud or lying.) Predicted results: 5. 0.000% (0 out of 1,000) of the control group will be funded. 6. Approximately 104% of the 1,000 in the test group will be funded, many of them before they've even left the room in which you are explaining the test protocol. (They might try out what you're explaining, via a quick email from their phone.) The reason it's more than 100% is that many of them will be funded multiple times while the test runs, i.e. for more than just the company they're seeking money for but also a second company. 7. What is remarkable is that I predict the same result if you gave the test group a really shitty idea, I mean objectively a terrible idea, and the control group an objectively ground-breaking or just awesome idea. This part is hard to prove though so better to give everyone the same idea. What is my point? My point is that not only does faking it work, it is the difference between 102% and 0.000% efficacy. You would never get funding for an idea that is the best idea of the 21st century, but you will get untold fortunes for pseudoscience if people think you've "made it." I realize I am arguing from a controlled thought-experiment here but this is the state of the world, folks.
tiredwired 9y ago
Faking it is fine when you are working for people who are also faking it competing in an industry of fakers making a product for people who want to fake it. Just make your fake more real than others fake.
swframe2 9y ago
Slightly off topic... It is useful to pretend to be the "go to" member of the team and simulate a conversation with them. Start an email to that person asking for help, and then think about the response s/he will send, then update the email until you can't predict the response. Often, you'll find a solution on your own.
nitwit005 9y ago
Just seems like pedantry? Poetic statements and sayings are generally not supposed to be taken literally. People were not encouraging you to avoid asking questions.

46 points by charlesbai 9y ago

its the same thing as "dress for the job want not the job you have" ... or "I think therefore I am" its a positive mind set. A couple of other ones: -Dont strike when the irons hot but make the iron hot by striking. -Law of Attraction guys, comeone , this is hacker news ... can you get a point simple point with out over complicating it. We are supposed to be good engineers here, we are over engineering this idea

pfarnsworth 9y ago

This is a ridiculous thing to write a blog post about. The point of the saying is to mean "Try new things with fake confidence until you have attained enough mastery to have real confidence." As with life, the saying works great for some things, but not so great for other things. If you want to be a comedian, some times it's better to just go up on stage and pretend you've already mastered it, until you do eventually become a master. Self-doubt will kill you, so fake yourself out and just go for it until you're actually good. If you want to be a doctor, then obviously it doesn't work as well.

nostrademons 9y ago

"Fake it till you make it" is usually applied to situations other than the one he describes. If you're already an employee on some project, working on a team that you trust and work well with, then sure, just ask your peers how to do it. At that point, you've already "made it". "Fake it till you make it" usually applies to "how do you get to that point?" If you're a fresh college grad with no particular accomplishments to your name, how do you convince people that they should invest time and energy teaching you the ropes so that you're even qualified to work on a team with peers who you can ask for help? Because the default answer when a stranger asks to pick your brain to get into a hot, highly-competitive field is usually "Yeah, sure, maybe when I get around to it", if you get an answer at all. And if you're asking for a job, where they pay you money, then unless you've carefully chosen a field where they're desperate for people regardless of your prior background, you're going to have a tough time demonstrating value without at least some form of "faking it", even if that's just networking politely, cold-calling, and doing some basic research on the companies you're applying to.

euyyn 9y ago
Worked wonders for me to get my girlfriend back in highschool too.
whatshisface 9y ago
> "faking it", even if that's just networking politely, cold-calling, and doing some basic research on the companies you're applying to. That's definitely not faking in any sense of the word! Well, I've really heard it three ways. "Fake it till you make it," can mean any of: - Slightly untrue positive thinking will help you build up enough confidence to get started. - Present yourself to other people with the confidence of someone who's already done what you want to convince them you can do. - Falsify your qualifications and dodge questions about what you've done in the past, don't worry it never catches up with you. I think 1. can work for some people, 2. works for essentially anyone in every situation, and 3. is very, very false.
- nostrademons 9y ago
  I usually see it used in the sense of 1 & 2. 3 can work - I've seen a lot of people who get ahead, at least temporarily, by blatantly exaggerating their contributions and competency. It's taking a big risk, though, more than I'd be comfortable with in my own professional life, and these people often flame out spectacularly when it catches up with them.
charlesbai 9y ago
You know to be honest, even in your second scenario, I've found more success approaching others with the stance that you are a young, energetic, and driven student who has the potential to learn, willing to listen to the advice of the experienced, and an admittance to your own lack of concrete knowledge. For some particular case examples, "Faking it Till You Make It" may work better, but overall, the work relationships that are generated from being authentic tend to be more genuine and overall the other person seems more invested in your general learning and growth.
- nostrademons 9y ago

figurehe4d 9y ago

Bad philosophy to lead your life with, but not a bad strategy to get ahead. In a hustle economy, that can get you far.

dsp1234 9y ago

but its not an effective strategy for learning. 'Fake it til you make it' is about getting access to opportunities you wouldn't generally have otherwise. It's not a learning strategy, so it's not surprising that it's not an effective learning strategy.

strathmeyer 9y ago

You're supposed to be faking feeling like you belong, that you are successful; not knowing something you don't.

oneweekwonder 9y ago

If you are in a small startup and there is no other peers to ask, and irc or so can not answer your questions. Your either gonna fake it and make it, or walk away from the computer. My so was surprised to here I "fake" my job... self thought tinkerer since my teens! Luckily I picked up a degree to prop my cv. But I'm still dev'ing like it is the teen days... maybe with a bit of git, ci, and devops sprinkled in between.

kingkawn 9y ago

Yes but it rhymes. Rhyming defeats all other reasoning processes by linguistic default

GrinningFool 9y ago

> I never liked this quote because it implies being something that you are not, which leads to disingenuous behaviour. I've always liked the quote, but I've also interpreted it differently than the author has. Rather than "pretend to be what you are not", I view it more like, "to be what you want, start being what you want and stick to it". That is, start doing the things that it requires. Commit to it - these are the things you do when you're alone as well as when others can see. Let it guide your decisions - you're changing yourself, and that takes a lot of conscious effort at first. I consider that as 'faking it' because it feels unnatural - the new behaviors feel like you're putting on act. As time goes on, this changes. Until one day, you realize that you've integrated that thing you wanted to be into who you actually are. [Or so it has worked out for me in cases that I've done it and stuck with it...]

charlesbai 9y ago
Ah I see, from this angle I can understand - the unnaturalness of new conscious behavioural changes. But overall, that is just discomfort. If you have internalized the values and your actions align with those values, I still do not view it as "faking" it per say. When learning how to swim for the first time, it may feel unnatural. But you are not faking it. You are trying something new, and you have the chance of failure (the source of the discomfort, possibly?) - but you are being true to the task at hand
- khedoros1 9y ago
  Swimming is something you do. "A swimmer" is someone you are. A swimmer swims. If you can't already swim, you learn how to. But when you can swim, you aren't necessarily a swimmer yet. I don't think it's about some particular skill, but more about an identity. Taking on a new identity might involve learning some new skills, but those are just the prerequisites to even successfully "faking it". Put another way, it's more about establishing patterns of behavior. You start off making decisions consciously, and maybe even with difficulty, like "I'm going to get up at 6am, warm up, and swim 10 laps". And "I'm switching my diet to complement my new exercise routine". They'll start out feeling novel, like they're someone else's actions. Then eventually, they'll be your norm. They'll still take effort, but of course you'll make the effort, because "this is just what I do".

specialist 9y ago

How you talk changes how you think. I’ve reinvented myself multiple times. I highly recommend it. From article: ”I never liked this quote because it implies being something that you are not, which leads to disingenuous behaviour.” Some of us don’t like who we are. Some of us want to change. Need to change. And sometimes just want try on a new pair of shoes. I’ve posted comments before about how I mitigated my anger management problem(s) (abused as a child) and anxiety (chronic life threatening illnesses) by changing my language, my expectations, my habits, my monkey sphere roster. Works great. Each reboot takes about three years. The scary part is that most don’t remember changing. This is how propaganda works. Maybe cult indoctrination too (I believe, but cannnot prove). Sure, the power to change can be used for good or evil. And yet, choosing to be self-actualized is kinda awesome.

nomel 9y ago
I find this very interesting! In addition to your comment history (which I will dig through), are there any useful resources/tips/guides you would suggest?
- specialist 9y ago
  Thanks. My journey started with "When Anger Hurts" http://a.co/6rE8whC http://a.co/6rE8whC TL;DR: Anger starts with expectations. To stop being angry, change your expectations. Worked great. Then I got stuck on changing my habits. I'd say (at best) I was "unangry". Which I decided wasn't good enough. Knowing that we can't unlearn habit, only replace them, I decided to pretend to be happy. A really big step for me, because I was of the belief that happy people were simple. But I was out of ideas. So I just started saying every thing was great, saying positive things about everything, etc. Initially, it was mostly sarcastic. Imagine my surprised when 3 years later I woke up feeling happy and ready to conquer the world. When did that happen!? The change was so gradual, I didn't even notice. Years later, I picked up "How the Way We Talk Can Change the Way We Work" http://a.co/gbBOkW1 http://a.co/gbBOkW1 which confirmed my personal experience with data, research. Much more has been written since, natch. I learned the bit about people not remembering changing their minds from Swarm Intelligence http://a.co/egfqiON http://a.co/egfqiON [2001] Of course, a lot more has been written since, like Democracy for Realists http://a.co/99XlVaB http://a.co/99XlVaB and everyone now noticing that Trump supporters have completely (and unknowingly) reversed their positions to conform.

anonemouse145 9y ago

Article is bad. But random thought: Fake it 'til you make it is a prime driver of wage differences between men and women. Many women I personally know have refused promotions and job offers because they don't feel ready, then complain that unfit men get the job. As if it's a mystery what happened. This also goes for young people. Sometimes getting in over your head and failing is a totally positive opportunity. Imagine if you could get hired somewhere above your level at Google for just one month, and how much you could learn there. Then you can take all that knowledge to your next job. Plus your resume says Google on it. For a lot of people fresh out of college, that would be a big plus. Don't be stupid, arrogance isn't helpful when it's something crucial like health care or safety inspections or your own education. But if it's a chance to make a few more bucks at your job, default to always take the chance when it's offered. Fortune favors the bold, and such.

j4ship 9y ago

ok so now the title ... is just useless at this point. This just in : the sky is blue

otakucode 9y ago

It was alright advice back in the day of factories where jobs generally fell into one of two camps... either you worked the production line with mindless repetitive labor, or you worked the office side which was just a contest of extroverted bullshit. Nowhere was it important for anyone to actually know anything. Worst case scenario is a quota slips by a bit. And everything was built based upon that being the dominant economic form of every company. Almost every single aspect of how modern companies are organized and work was designed to facilitate that factory mindset and we don't seem prepared to revisit it any time soon. The fact that now the assembly line is gone and the office has consumed it all and the only thing that matters at all is people knowing the right thing, making good judgments that can never be captured by a 'standard operating procedure', etc, doesn't seem to bother those in a position to do anything about it.

killjoywashere 9y ago

If "fake it till you make it" didn't work, there would be no doctors.

OtisS 9y ago

https://www.ted.com/talks/amy_cuddy_your_body_language_shapes_who_you_are https://www.ted.com/talks/amy_cuddy_your_body_language_shape... Interesting article supporting the idea, but changing the saying to, "Fake it until you become it".

sigstoat 9y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_posing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_posing > Dana Carney, the lead author of the original article, issued a statement in 2016 abandoning the theory: "I do not believe that 'power pose effects' are real..."

tpurves 9y ago

Capable people suffer from imposter syndrome, inhibiting them from trying something new or difficult, or afraid of trying things they aren't god at yet. In this case "Fake it till you make it" is great advice. A different set of people may suffer from Dunning Kruger effect or delusions of grandeur, in which case it could be terrible advice.

amorphid 9y ago

> “Faking It Till You Make It” is Horrible Advice If you need a job & can't get a job interview without portraying your experience in a way that makes you sound more established than you are, how else are you supposed to survive? You have to tell people what they want to hear to get noticed, and sometimes that means faking it. Example: "I have worked with Java for 5 years." Does the interviewer need to know you touched Java once a year for 15 minutes 5 years in a row? You're not lying, and it's up to the interviewer to call you on your exaggeration. You gotta do what you gotta do to survive, and that's the way it is. That being said, I hate faking it, and I work hard to graduate to not faking it as fast as I can. But I would never be mad at someone for faking it. Outright lying I have zero tolerance for, but faking it is just fine.

fpisfun 9y ago

I feel like a lot of my managers throughout my career have been taking the fake it til you make it approach. I guess they've"made it" but they're still faking it in terms of having zero technical competency to manage projects

internetman55 9y ago
Yeah, I'm surprised that more people on here aren't making this connection.

jchw 9y ago

My interpretation is that it's more like the behavioral equivalent of "dress for the job you want" rather than being unethical. Always being open to learning new things, and being confident in your ability to overcome challenges.

michaelbuckbee 9y ago

There's a different phrase that I think makes more sense: "Act As If". People suffering from and trying to overcome Impostor Syndrome (the feeling that even though you are doing good work and have made some big accomplishments that you’re really an “impostor” at your job and people are going find out) are somewhat endemic to startup and tech circles. I think most of this is brought on by the rapidly changing toolsets, frameworks and technologies that you need to grapple with to put out a modern web app. (see: http://html9responsiveboilerstrapjs.com/ http://html9responsiveboilerstrapjs.com/) So, it was pretty surprising that the best advice that I’ve heard on the subject comes from Conan O’Brien. “In improvisational acting there is this great rule that I’ve used in my life: ‘Act As If’. Act as if this is completely normal. Of course I’m supposed to be interviewing Barack Obama. Of course I’m supposed to be playing guitar with Bruce Springsteen and of course there’s a big part of me inside that’s saying: ‘What are you talking about?’” From “Conan O’Brien Can’t Stop” — 21:00 The best entrepreneurs that I’ve worked with have (without naming it) exhibited this same pattern. 1. Recognize privately and intellectually that some big crazy thing is about to happen: a key investor meeting, a sales call to a big new client or interview with a major publication. 2. Do the hard work of preparing and making sure their product and facts are all in line. 3. Execute through their fears and anxieties by “acting as if” in public. Nothing is a cure all, but it is surprising how much even a simple phrase repeated to yourself can help.

seorphates 9y ago

Mhm.. you all work too much, or not enough.. still on fence. It's a motivational concept, a personal reinforcement of a goal you've set for yourself, slang for dropping in. You'll get hit but you want to get hit. You want this. Wanna be? Gotta be. Poke and go.

redler 9y ago

I always read this as meaning "if you want to do something that's uncomfortable for you, force yourself to do it — perform the actions mechanically — until it does become comfortable".

tzakrajs 9y ago

I think the OP is taking the phrase too literally. "Faking it" is a tongue-in-cheek expression to describe putting in tangible effort towards becoming the person you want to be.

enginaar 9y ago

I have to agree with the post. By faking it I'm limiting myself to learn from the first-hand experience only, you have no difference from the first person ever tried what you're trying to do. By asking/searching something you don't know, you are benefiting from a collected experience. Sapiens had the cognitive revolution, found out how to write and pass the information to other generations. Not using any of these tools available to me seems a bit going back in evolution, especially in an age where information is shared freely. Sure it would provide short-term gains and you may not take as long as the first person ever did but can I gain all the experience of lots of professionals working in CS gained in decades? How long will it take for me to reach a level of engineering by today's standards?

quadrangle 9y ago

This is a misunderstanding. The point of the quote is to get over imposter syndrome basically. It's about the fact that people actually perform better when they have some confidence. It's not actually used to suggest things like a quack acting as a doctor or anything truly dishonest. To be clear, the point in the article is still right: we actually will be less confident and have all sorts of problems when there's false pretenses. It is good to be honest and say things like "This is my first time doing this". We come across better and can actually be more confident without the pretense. "Fake it til you make it" in the end is as useful as "better to ask forgiveness than permission". Anyone just accepting this as good advice for whatever situation without other good judgment is a careless imbecile.

m3kw9 9y ago

I mean if it works and it isn’t really hurting anyone, say act confident till you can get there, why not?

logicallee 9y ago

1. select 2,000 random Bay Area 24-34 year-olds in the field of IT. 2. divide them into A and B, a test and a control group, obviously randomly. (1,000 each.) 3. Give them the same idea. They are to prepare pitch decks for it and get funding. 4. The test group is told to fake already having made a $10 million exit. They are not allowed to exactly lie, but their job is to go out of their way to give this impression. (Literally fake this impression by any means necessary short of outright fraud or lying.) Predicted results: 5. 0.000% (0 out of 1,000) of the control group will be funded. 6. Approximately 104% of the 1,000 in the test group will be funded, many of them before they've even left the room in which you are explaining the test protocol. (They might try out what you're explaining, via a quick email from their phone.) The reason it's more than 100% is that many of them will be funded multiple times while the test runs, i.e. for more than just the company they're seeking money for but also a second company. 7. What is remarkable is that I predict the same result if you gave the test group a really shitty idea, I mean objectively a terrible idea, and the control group an objectively ground-breaking or just awesome idea. This part is hard to prove though so better to give everyone the same idea. What is my point? My point is that not only does faking it work, it is the difference between 102% and 0.000% efficacy. You would never get funding for an idea that is the best idea of the 21st century, but you will get untold fortunes for pseudoscience if people think you've "made it." I realize I am arguing from a controlled thought-experiment here but this is the state of the world, folks.

tiredwired 9y ago

Faking it is fine when you are working for people who are also faking it competing in an industry of fakers making a product for people who want to fake it. Just make your fake more real than others fake.

swframe2 9y ago

Slightly off topic... It is useful to pretend to be the "go to" member of the team and simulate a conversation with them. Start an email to that person asking for help, and then think about the response s/he will send, then update the email until you can't predict the response. Often, you'll find a solution on your own.

nitwit005 9y ago

Just seems like pedantry? Poetic statements and sayings are generally not supposed to be taken literally. People were not encouraging you to avoid asking questions.