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Instead of answering your question, I will leave this: Very small children understand and recognize property, since it is a natural right. The toy in my hand i

Instead of answering your question, I will leave this: Very small children understand and recognize property, since it is a natural right. The toy in my hand is "mine," and when some other kid comes along and takes it, I get upset.

frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
>Very small children understand and recognize property, since it is a natural right. The toy in my hand is "mine," and when some other kid comes along and takes it, I get upset. When a very small child in a poor family looks at what is under a wealthy family's Christmas tree he's also going to be upset. Does that make a relatively equal distribution of Christmas presents a natural right? I see no basis for decrying all coercion and mandating transactions be voluntary yet also overlooking the biggest contributor to coercion: property.
- googletazer 9y ago
  Upset/uncomfortable - maybe, but at who? The rich family? His own family? Himself? Society? All of those? People on hackernews and in general tend to view "negative" feelings, envy, etc... as generically "bad". These feelings are evolutionary signals from your primal brain that something isn't going right. Its up to you to fix that, however you see fit.
  - pishpash 9y ago
    Not all people feel the same way or get the same primal brain screams. Who decides who's right?
    - ballenf 9y ago
      Whichever side has more hashing power. Err, I mean muscle+weapon power.
      - googletazer 9y ago
        Yup, every armed robbery is a brain deciding that it can take stuff by force instead of making/creating/exchanging it.
  - frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
    >Upset/uncomfortable - maybe, but at who? The rich family? His own family? Himself? Society? All of those? "Upset" wasn't my word choice, I was just re-using what clark said to show the emptiness in using childhood feelings to determine what is and isn't a natural right. I don't actually believe our society should be governed by the feelings of children.
  - Daishiman 9y ago
    > These feelings are evolutionary signals from your primal brain that something isn't going right. Its up to you to fix that, however you see fit. So rape and pillaging it is then.
    - googletazer 9y ago
      I mean those two have pretty clear risks as well. Morality might moderate people's primal feelings but they are even better moderated by understanding opportunity - costs of the actions. Nevertheless, there is nothing inherently "bad" about "negative" feelings. They just tell you something isn't going right and you have to fix it. How you do that - is up to you.
sidlls 9y ago
What is a "natural right?" How is one identified? How is it distinguishable from a right that is not a "natural right"?
- pessimizer 9y ago
  It's begging the question by making the basics of your political philosophy axiomatic.
ifdefdebug 9y ago
> The toy in my hand is "mine," Then the stronger kid comes along and takes the toy away, because he is stronger and now it's in his hand and he says "it's mine". Would you find it coercive to forbid the stronger kid to act this way by means of a law (enforced maybe by the teacher) that forbids stronger kids to steal from smaller kids? edit: oppressive -> coercive, sorry
alexPetrov846 9y ago
Very small children also constantly think they own things that they do not. They are also quite fond of stealing things that they want to have (the opposite of property rights). The small children argument in general is a super poor one, I don't know why anyone would ever use it. People are naturally bad at various things, and children are almost definitely bad at those things (due to a lack of experience/training). There are few things that children are better at than adults, and the most important thing is that they're better at learning and/or otherwise being adaptable and dynamic.
v-erne 9y ago
Yeah, right, I’m guessing that You have limited access to children. Otherwise You World have known that they recognize everything as their property (unless the original owner is stronger than them)
trhway 9y ago
>Very small children understand and recognize property, since it is a natural right. they also tend to shit when and where they want (would you say that "it is a natural right" too?). The point of upbringing in civilized society is to put under control the "natural" instincts. And what you mentioned is an instinct, not a right. The notion of rights comes later as the rules that the people with developed "bladder control" agree upon in order to live together and cooperate.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
xorcist 9y ago
Whoever said this can not possibly have children. Small babies couldn't care less about toys which move in and out of their hands, except perhaps for the serious matter of tasting them. They soon learn to say the word that other people use when they want to keep stuff. The actual meaning of the word, and that some people's ownership seems to have legitimacy, doesn't dawn on them until later. (Just to clarify in the age of the Internet: I think we should respect ownership. But the argument that we should do it because it's an innate concept with babies is a bad one, even if it was true.)
gnulinux 9y ago
Private property has nothing to do with toys in your hand; so it's not related to this debate. Do children think owning a factory and making money off of workers working there is a natural right?

frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago

>Very small children understand and recognize property, since it is a natural right. The toy in my hand is "mine," and when some other kid comes along and takes it, I get upset. When a very small child in a poor family looks at what is under a wealthy family's Christmas tree he's also going to be upset. Does that make a relatively equal distribution of Christmas presents a natural right? I see no basis for decrying all coercion and mandating transactions be voluntary yet also overlooking the biggest contributor to coercion: property.

googletazer 9y ago
Upset/uncomfortable - maybe, but at who? The rich family? His own family? Himself? Society? All of those? People on hackernews and in general tend to view "negative" feelings, envy, etc... as generically "bad". These feelings are evolutionary signals from your primal brain that something isn't going right. Its up to you to fix that, however you see fit.
- pishpash 9y ago
  Not all people feel the same way or get the same primal brain screams. Who decides who's right?
  - ballenf 9y ago
    Whichever side has more hashing power. Err, I mean muscle+weapon power.
    - googletazer 9y ago
      Yup, every armed robbery is a brain deciding that it can take stuff by force instead of making/creating/exchanging it.
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
  >Upset/uncomfortable - maybe, but at who? The rich family? His own family? Himself? Society? All of those? "Upset" wasn't my word choice, I was just re-using what clark said to show the emptiness in using childhood feelings to determine what is and isn't a natural right. I don't actually believe our society should be governed by the feelings of children.
- Daishiman 9y ago
  > These feelings are evolutionary signals from your primal brain that something isn't going right. Its up to you to fix that, however you see fit. So rape and pillaging it is then.
  - googletazer 9y ago
    I mean those two have pretty clear risks as well. Morality might moderate people's primal feelings but they are even better moderated by understanding opportunity - costs of the actions. Nevertheless, there is nothing inherently "bad" about "negative" feelings. They just tell you something isn't going right and you have to fix it. How you do that - is up to you.

sidlls 9y ago

What is a "natural right?" How is one identified? How is it distinguishable from a right that is not a "natural right"?

pessimizer 9y ago
It's begging the question by making the basics of your political philosophy axiomatic.

ifdefdebug 9y ago

> The toy in my hand is "mine," Then the stronger kid comes along and takes the toy away, because he is stronger and now it's in his hand and he says "it's mine". Would you find it coercive to forbid the stronger kid to act this way by means of a law (enforced maybe by the teacher) that forbids stronger kids to steal from smaller kids? edit: oppressive -> coercive, sorry

alexPetrov846 9y ago

Very small children also constantly think they own things that they do not. They are also quite fond of stealing things that they want to have (the opposite of property rights). The small children argument in general is a super poor one, I don't know why anyone would ever use it. People are naturally bad at various things, and children are almost definitely bad at those things (due to a lack of experience/training). There are few things that children are better at than adults, and the most important thing is that they're better at learning and/or otherwise being adaptable and dynamic.

v-erne 9y ago

Yeah, right, I’m guessing that You have limited access to children. Otherwise You World have known that they recognize everything as their property (unless the original owner is stronger than them)

trhway 9y ago

>Very small children understand and recognize property, since it is a natural right. they also tend to shit when and where they want (would you say that "it is a natural right" too?). The point of upbringing in civilized society is to put under control the "natural" instincts. And what you mentioned is an instinct, not a right. The notion of rights comes later as the rules that the people with developed "bladder control" agree upon in order to live together and cooperate.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

xorcist 9y ago

Whoever said this can not possibly have children. Small babies couldn't care less about toys which move in and out of their hands, except perhaps for the serious matter of tasting them. They soon learn to say the word that other people use when they want to keep stuff. The actual meaning of the word, and that some people's ownership seems to have legitimacy, doesn't dawn on them until later. (Just to clarify in the age of the Internet: I think we should respect ownership. But the argument that we should do it because it's an innate concept with babies is a bad one, even if it was true.)

gnulinux 9y ago

Private property has nothing to do with toys in your hand; so it's not related to this debate. Do children think owning a factory and making money off of workers working there is a natural right?