7 ms·

It baffles me that anyone would allow such a device in their home, let alone pay for the privilege.

jderick 9y ago
How is it different from a cellphone really, though?
ggg9990 9y ago
I have one. Do I like the privacy aspect? No. But my wife breastfeeds our baby for 3 hours a day and she needs music and audiobooks that she can control without using her hands. It's a simple trade off. My privacy is worth something but not infinitely valuable.
- amelius 9y ago
  Since you are a geek (I suppose), can't you figure out a way for her to play audio without sending private information to Amazon? Anyway, pretty soon we'll have open source speech recognition, so I guess then you'll really have no excuses left.
  - kodt 9y ago
    What private information is getting sent to Amazon apart from your musical interests in that case?
    - monochromatic 9y ago
      Everything that is ever said within earshot of the device, potentially.
      - kodt 9y ago
        "Potentially" but we can examine network activity and verify that it is not in fact sending data all the time.
        thg 9y ago
        Until you get a (targeted) firmware update that allows for just that. Even if there is no malicious intent now, can you be absolutely certain that that won't change? That there aren't or won't be any hidden keywords that will trigger recording / transmitting in silent mode? If I were planning to use these devices for surveillance, I'd of course provide only the utility first while privacy-minded people are still skeptical and then turn on the surveillance gradually after these devices are deployed nearly everywhere, integrated into every-day life, and can't be (easily) removed anymore. [0] The current version might have a hardware kill switch for the microphone. Will the next batch too? The batch after that? How many people will actually go out of their way to toggle that switch to be certain it isn't listening instead of believing it isn't in good faith, or worse, not even thinking about whether it might? Perhaps these devices won't ever be used for mass surveillance, or perhaps this is the beginning of Telescreens as they're described in George Orwell's 1984. Both Amazon and Google make vast quantities of their income by excessively undermining privacy in favor of targeted advertising. I'd call it fairly naive to expect them to now build privacy-minded devices that have as much spying potential as the Echo and Dot have. [0]: https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2017/01/04/alexa-car-ford-amazon-shop-search-home.html https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2017...
        kodt 9y ago
        The parent comment suggested that these devices are already sending all of your conversations to Amazon. Which they are not. Of course the potential exists for devices to be compromised in the future, and that is something everyone should be aware of when putting one in your home. I have seen more than one comment suggesting that Amazon currently stores everything it hears in passing on their servers. I have seen no evidence to suggest that is the case. Informing people on the potential risks is fine, but spreading FUD is not.
        amelius 9y ago
        > Until you get a (targeted) firmware update that allows for just that. Wouldn't that apply to (mics in) smartphones as well?
  - ggg9990 9y ago
    That's also a tradeoff I'm not willing to make. I could easily build her a system that lets her play music and podcasts by voice. However it would take tens of hours. That's time I'm simply not willing to divert from other areas to avoid a microphone in my living room. If it was a camera in my bedroom the calculus might be different.
  - mstolpm 9y ago
    > Anyway, pretty soon we'll have open source speech recognition, so I guess then you'll really have no excuses left. What changes with an open source implementation? Your home-build device can be compromised as well, it needs mics as well. So, you'll gain nothing. Are you questioning that Alexa/Echo works as advertised (waiting for a wake word) or are you not informed about how Alexa is supposed to work (out of the box, not compromised)?
    - TomMarius 9y ago
      You could have it physically separated from the Internet.
- Angostura 9y ago
  It’s pretty unusual not be be able to use your hands at all during breast feeding.
  - ggg9990 9y ago
    She likes holding him instead of fiddling with a remote. Overall the privacy issue is just not at the bottom but not anywhere near the top of our priorities.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
techer 9y ago
Anecdote. I live by myself and rarely speak to myself. My office in the back has no alexa or any microphones - my phone stays out of this room. The rest of the apartment is generally silent. True - it may listen to what I'm watching on TV but the cable company already knows that? Very useful so far and I'm not not paranoid...
- Fifer82 9y ago
  Can you tell me about all the useful features it has which you use? I am just curious.
  - techer 9y ago
    Sorry this is late. I barely use her for anything. But there is a difference between typing out a request and something being on the top of your head/the tip of your tongue. ‘Play the marriage of figaro! Play the charge of the light brigade. Play Run DMC. Play Irish music. What is the temperature outside. What’s the time.’
swlkr 9y ago
This also confused me when I saw it as well. I wasn't sure if the first echo was an April fool's joke or if they were serious. I was even more confused when people actually started buying them. It's always startling when I go to a friend's house and Alexa gets triggered accidentally.
- Danihan 9y ago
  This thread is making me feel like I either don't have enough friends or just don't go to people's houses enough.
- DerfNet 9y ago
  It's the new thing, people will always buy or use the new thing just because it's the new thing.
  - ionised 9y ago
    This is a major factor. People in general are easily impressed by shiny new baubles.
- unobtaniumstool 9y ago
  At the time it came out, voice triggered smart assistants had been available on phones for years, and computers for decades. All it did was put that feature in a different package.
  - swlkr 9y ago
    It's true, but it's just one feature you can turn off, it's the ONLY feature of smart speakers.
27182818284 9y ago
1998: - Don't get in strangers' cars - Don't meet ppl from internet 2016: - Literally summon strangers from internet to get in their car https://twitter.com/carols10cents/status/749109677431021568 https://twitter.com/carols10cents/status/749109677431021568
mikeash 9y ago
Do you allow computers and cell phones? Or is there something special about a microphone when it's attached to something shaped like a hockey puck instead of a box?
- DerfNet 9y ago
  I do not grant my phone permission to constantly use its microphone. Unless it is being tampered with, which is beyond my control, the microphone should only be in use when I enable it. I physically remove the microphones and webcams in my laptops and use a USB microphone with a physical power switch. This is probably unnecessary as, by the same logic as my phone, nobody should have access to these peripherals unless I grant it. But it helps with paranoia. I don't like a camera and microphone pointed at my face constantly. No way in hell would I buy a device where "always listening" is listed as a feature.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    Unless your Echo is being tampered with, the microphone data is only recorded and transmitted when you say the activation word. In both cases, you have to trust the manufacturer that the device behaves the way they say they do.
  - GhostVII 9y ago
    You remove the mic in your phone too? Or do you just assume that Android isn't always listening?
  - kelnos 9y ago
    > I physically remove the microphones and webcams in my laptops and use a USB microphone with a physical power switch. I say this not to belittle you or to minimize your feelings or experience, but you have to understand that, among the general population, your needs/wants here are in a very tiny minority. The number of people who do what you do is vanishingly small. The vast majority of people do not care, and those who do will often make a conscious decision that the trade-off is worth it. And that's ok! As long as you can continue to take care of your needs, and other people can take care of theirs, then all is well.
Fifer82 9y ago
It completely baffles me as well, It is hard to be a bigger complete and utter tool than invite this into the home. Not least because it does NOTHING you actually need. Just a privacy miner that you pay hard cash for. Amazon is laughing.

How is it different from a cellphone really, though?

I have one. Do I like the privacy aspect? No. But my wife breastfeeds our baby for 3 hours a day and she needs music and audiobooks that she can control without using her hands. It's a simple trade off. My privacy is worth something but not infinitely valuable.

amelius 9y ago
Since you are a geek (I suppose), can't you figure out a way for her to play audio without sending private information to Amazon? Anyway, pretty soon we'll have open source speech recognition, so I guess then you'll really have no excuses left.
- kodt 9y ago
  What private information is getting sent to Amazon apart from your musical interests in that case?
  - monochromatic 9y ago
    Everything that is ever said within earshot of the device, potentially.
    - kodt 9y ago
      "Potentially" but we can examine network activity and verify that it is not in fact sending data all the time.
      - thg 9y ago
        Until you get a (targeted) firmware update that allows for just that. Even if there is no malicious intent now, can you be absolutely certain that that won't change? That there aren't or won't be any hidden keywords that will trigger recording / transmitting in silent mode? If I were planning to use these devices for surveillance, I'd of course provide only the utility first while privacy-minded people are still skeptical and then turn on the surveillance gradually after these devices are deployed nearly everywhere, integrated into every-day life, and can't be (easily) removed anymore. [0] The current version might have a hardware kill switch for the microphone. Will the next batch too? The batch after that? How many people will actually go out of their way to toggle that switch to be certain it isn't listening instead of believing it isn't in good faith, or worse, not even thinking about whether it might? Perhaps these devices won't ever be used for mass surveillance, or perhaps this is the beginning of Telescreens as they're described in George Orwell's 1984. Both Amazon and Google make vast quantities of their income by excessively undermining privacy in favor of targeted advertising. I'd call it fairly naive to expect them to now build privacy-minded devices that have as much spying potential as the Echo and Dot have. [0]: https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2017/01/04/alexa-car-ford-amazon-shop-search-home.html https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2017...
        kodt 9y ago
        The parent comment suggested that these devices are already sending all of your conversations to Amazon. Which they are not. Of course the potential exists for devices to be compromised in the future, and that is something everyone should be aware of when putting one in your home. I have seen more than one comment suggesting that Amazon currently stores everything it hears in passing on their servers. I have seen no evidence to suggest that is the case. Informing people on the potential risks is fine, but spreading FUD is not.
        amelius 9y ago
        > Until you get a (targeted) firmware update that allows for just that. Wouldn't that apply to (mics in) smartphones as well?
- ggg9990 9y ago
  That's also a tradeoff I'm not willing to make. I could easily build her a system that lets her play music and podcasts by voice. However it would take tens of hours. That's time I'm simply not willing to divert from other areas to avoid a microphone in my living room. If it was a camera in my bedroom the calculus might be different.
- mstolpm 9y ago
  > Anyway, pretty soon we'll have open source speech recognition, so I guess then you'll really have no excuses left. What changes with an open source implementation? Your home-build device can be compromised as well, it needs mics as well. So, you'll gain nothing. Are you questioning that Alexa/Echo works as advertised (waiting for a wake word) or are you not informed about how Alexa is supposed to work (out of the box, not compromised)?
  - TomMarius 9y ago
    You could have it physically separated from the Internet.
Angostura 9y ago
It’s pretty unusual not be be able to use your hands at all during breast feeding.
- ggg9990 9y ago
  She likes holding him instead of fiddling with a remote. Overall the privacy issue is just not at the bottom but not anywhere near the top of our priorities.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

techer 9y ago

Anecdote. I live by myself and rarely speak to myself. My office in the back has no alexa or any microphones - my phone stays out of this room. The rest of the apartment is generally silent. True - it may listen to what I'm watching on TV but the cable company already knows that? Very useful so far and I'm not not paranoid...

Fifer82 9y ago
Can you tell me about all the useful features it has which you use? I am just curious.
- techer 9y ago
  Sorry this is late. I barely use her for anything. But there is a difference between typing out a request and something being on the top of your head/the tip of your tongue. ‘Play the marriage of figaro! Play the charge of the light brigade. Play Run DMC. Play Irish music. What is the temperature outside. What’s the time.’

swlkr 9y ago

This also confused me when I saw it as well. I wasn't sure if the first echo was an April fool's joke or if they were serious. I was even more confused when people actually started buying them. It's always startling when I go to a friend's house and Alexa gets triggered accidentally.

Danihan 9y ago
This thread is making me feel like I either don't have enough friends or just don't go to people's houses enough.
DerfNet 9y ago
It's the new thing, people will always buy or use the new thing just because it's the new thing.
- ionised 9y ago
  This is a major factor. People in general are easily impressed by shiny new baubles.
unobtaniumstool 9y ago
At the time it came out, voice triggered smart assistants had been available on phones for years, and computers for decades. All it did was put that feature in a different package.
- swlkr 9y ago
  It's true, but it's just one feature you can turn off, it's the ONLY feature of smart speakers.

27182818284 9y ago

1998: - Don't get in strangers' cars - Don't meet ppl from internet 2016: - Literally summon strangers from internet to get in their car https://twitter.com/carols10cents/status/749109677431021568 https://twitter.com/carols10cents/status/749109677431021568

mikeash 9y ago

Do you allow computers and cell phones? Or is there something special about a microphone when it's attached to something shaped like a hockey puck instead of a box?

DerfNet 9y ago
I do not grant my phone permission to constantly use its microphone. Unless it is being tampered with, which is beyond my control, the microphone should only be in use when I enable it. I physically remove the microphones and webcams in my laptops and use a USB microphone with a physical power switch. This is probably unnecessary as, by the same logic as my phone, nobody should have access to these peripherals unless I grant it. But it helps with paranoia. I don't like a camera and microphone pointed at my face constantly. No way in hell would I buy a device where "always listening" is listed as a feature.
- mikeash 9y ago
  Unless your Echo is being tampered with, the microphone data is only recorded and transmitted when you say the activation word. In both cases, you have to trust the manufacturer that the device behaves the way they say they do.
- GhostVII 9y ago
  You remove the mic in your phone too? Or do you just assume that Android isn't always listening?
- kelnos 9y ago
  > I physically remove the microphones and webcams in my laptops and use a USB microphone with a physical power switch. I say this not to belittle you or to minimize your feelings or experience, but you have to understand that, among the general population, your needs/wants here are in a very tiny minority. The number of people who do what you do is vanishingly small. The vast majority of people do not care, and those who do will often make a conscious decision that the trade-off is worth it. And that's ok! As long as you can continue to take care of your needs, and other people can take care of theirs, then all is well.

Fifer82 9y ago

It completely baffles me as well, It is hard to be a bigger complete and utter tool than invite this into the home. Not least because it does NOTHING you actually need. Just a privacy miner that you pay hard cash for. Amazon is laughing.