9 ms·

> you'd probably see a lot more STEM degrees and a lot fewer of everything else I honestly think art schools are going to start running into problems convincin

> you'd probably see a lot more STEM degrees and a lot fewer of everything else I honestly think art schools are going to start running into problems convincing people it's a good idea to pay 60k a year for minimal ROI. My cousin wants to go into stage drama, and I don't want to tell her to not pursue her dream, but I think it's a lot to ask her to put herself in debt for years for a piece of paper that says she can act. FWIW I majored in ECE, got a job as a software engineer with 100k salary plus benefits, and I'm ~140k in debt. I definitely overpaid, but my salary gives me a way out. People who came from my alma mater who majored in drama can't say the same.

JonFish85 9y ago
> People who came from my alma mater who majored in drama can't say the same. Don't worry, your salary gives them a way out too. And I'm not just saying that to be snarky, I think it's very likely what will end up happening: you'll end up paying for their poor choices one way or another. If it's not directly via taxes to pay off their student loans, it'll fund their retirement.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  > Don't worry, your salary gives them a way out too. And I'm not just saying that to be snarky, I think it's very likely what will end up happening: you'll end up paying for their poor choices one way or another. If it's not directly via taxes to pay off their student loans, it'll fund their retirement. Social Security benefits, without any other retirement savings, puts you right around poverty level. I would not consider that "retirement". Being a software engineer, who makes more than many other professions, doesn't automatically make you better for doing so. It just means you've optimized for a specific system. Congrats! The world still needs plenty of professions where the pay sucks and college is required (teachers, civil engineers, LPNs), that are arguably far more useful/noble/whatever you want to call real value. Consider that when you're sending your kid(s) off to school, crossing a bridge on your way to work, or are in the hospital being cared for.
  - JonFish85 9y ago
    I'm not thinking just SS. Imagine in 30-40 years when SW engineers are retiring with their $5m 401k, but their neighbor is still barely making rent at their service-level job. I imagine there are many more people who have foregone retirement savings to pay off their massive college loans. Politically, the story would be something like this: why should you, a multi-millionaire SW engineer who hasn't paid taxes on your 401k not pay your fair share so that these other folks can spend some time with their families? After all, they were the victims of predatory lending! Close the loophole that allowed your opulent lifestyle! And remember, 401ks are a multi-trillion dollar market of untaxed dollars. Do you really think tomorrow's politician in 30-40 years is going to miss that, never mind their constituents?
    - toomuchtodo 9y ago
      Taxes are at historically low rates, and current governments have continually borrowed from the future to fund wars and tax cuts (outstanding US government obligations are in the trillions of dollars [1]). Of course taxes are going to go up. Plan accordingly. If you've put millions of dollars in a pre-tax retirement account, you're a fool if you think it's coming out at anything near current tax rates. You're banking on a political climate that cannot exist existing. That's your fault. And before blaming your average citizen, look how little anyone cares about what citizens want regarding net neutrality, a tax bill that is going to gut entitlements to support tax cuts for the top 1%, and so on. [1] https://treasurydirect.gov/NP/debt/current https://treasurydirect.gov/NP/debt/current (~20 trillion dollars in US gov outstanding debt obligations)
      - mywittyname 9y ago
        > Of course taxes are going to go up. Plan accordingly They already did. The GOP tax bill specifically targeted our demographic as a way to finance tax cuts for the wealthy and businesses. The GOP doesn't even deny it. Like it or not, we are the scapegoats for all the problems afflicting the poor. And it's not a stretch to believe the GOP is going to use popular support to extract every dime from us until we are homeless too.
- hycaria 9y ago
  There's no other way in my opinion too. This is super stressful to me. I started working a few years ago, working my ass off with a full time job and part time one at night and I wonder if it's going to be of any worth someday or if I'm just working against my own later benefits by putting myself in the "too wealthy compared to my age class future average" fringe.
servercobra 9y ago
Same. My sister was looking at a $40k/yr private school photography degree. I sat her down and we discussed how much that was going to cost her when she graduated, what kind of job she'd need to pay it back in a reasonable time, etc. In the end, she started her own wedding photography company instead.
- jedberg 9y ago
  > In the end, she started her own wedding photography company instead. That's awesome! I wish more people had smart person to sit down and explain these things to them.
  - softawre 9y ago
    What about some sort of state-funded guidance counselor that is required before you sign the paperwork to go to college? Or heck maybe force the colleges to pay for it.
ProAm 9y ago
Education doesn't always need to have an ROI, sometimes it's just worth what you spend on it.
- gedy 9y ago
  For sure, but the issue is whether you should borrow so much that it becomes a public policy issue.
  - ProAm 9y ago
    Who fault is that really? The banks and gov for over extending risky loans? Or the people who borrow? Probably both, but if the banks do not know the risk of over extending risky loans Im not sure what will ever be done.
- kajecounterhack 9y ago
  The vast majority of folks can't afford something that expensive without an ROI. What's being discussed here is how our current system encourages getting into debt for it and how that's negative for our society.
  - JBlue42 9y ago
    But American society as a whole encourages that behavior. It's not just education.
- kdamken 9y ago
  It does when it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.
kelukelugames 9y ago
What is the EV for a drama degree? Some actors make millions in their 20s. Probably .01% of actors?
georgeecollins 9y ago
There are some art and design schools who graduate students with great career prospects. In general people with really good modeling and animation skills can find work in entertainment. Not many people will pursue a career in drama, but I have worked with many people with that background who had great presentation and communication skills. This is an engineering heavy forum, but look around the place you work. Is everybody in management an engineer or scientist?
- hkmurakami 9y ago
  Looking at current management may give you inaccurate data since the competitive environment for new grads has worsened compared to 20 years ago for humanities majors. A better data point would be to look around entry level or mid level in non development roles (sales, marketing, HR/admin, etc.) and see what majors are represented there.
coss 9y ago
and now you could* likely pay for private stage lessons.

JonFish85 9y ago

> People who came from my alma mater who majored in drama can't say the same. Don't worry, your salary gives them a way out too. And I'm not just saying that to be snarky, I think it's very likely what will end up happening: you'll end up paying for their poor choices one way or another. If it's not directly via taxes to pay off their student loans, it'll fund their retirement.

toomuchtodo 9y ago
> Don't worry, your salary gives them a way out too. And I'm not just saying that to be snarky, I think it's very likely what will end up happening: you'll end up paying for their poor choices one way or another. If it's not directly via taxes to pay off their student loans, it'll fund their retirement. Social Security benefits, without any other retirement savings, puts you right around poverty level. I would not consider that "retirement". Being a software engineer, who makes more than many other professions, doesn't automatically make you better for doing so. It just means you've optimized for a specific system. Congrats! The world still needs plenty of professions where the pay sucks and college is required (teachers, civil engineers, LPNs), that are arguably far more useful/noble/whatever you want to call real value. Consider that when you're sending your kid(s) off to school, crossing a bridge on your way to work, or are in the hospital being cared for.
- JonFish85 9y ago
  I'm not thinking just SS. Imagine in 30-40 years when SW engineers are retiring with their $5m 401k, but their neighbor is still barely making rent at their service-level job. I imagine there are many more people who have foregone retirement savings to pay off their massive college loans. Politically, the story would be something like this: why should you, a multi-millionaire SW engineer who hasn't paid taxes on your 401k not pay your fair share so that these other folks can spend some time with their families? After all, they were the victims of predatory lending! Close the loophole that allowed your opulent lifestyle! And remember, 401ks are a multi-trillion dollar market of untaxed dollars. Do you really think tomorrow's politician in 30-40 years is going to miss that, never mind their constituents?
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    Taxes are at historically low rates, and current governments have continually borrowed from the future to fund wars and tax cuts (outstanding US government obligations are in the trillions of dollars [1]). Of course taxes are going to go up. Plan accordingly. If you've put millions of dollars in a pre-tax retirement account, you're a fool if you think it's coming out at anything near current tax rates. You're banking on a political climate that cannot exist existing. That's your fault. And before blaming your average citizen, look how little anyone cares about what citizens want regarding net neutrality, a tax bill that is going to gut entitlements to support tax cuts for the top 1%, and so on. [1] https://treasurydirect.gov/NP/debt/current https://treasurydirect.gov/NP/debt/current (~20 trillion dollars in US gov outstanding debt obligations)
    - mywittyname 9y ago
      > Of course taxes are going to go up. Plan accordingly They already did. The GOP tax bill specifically targeted our demographic as a way to finance tax cuts for the wealthy and businesses. The GOP doesn't even deny it. Like it or not, we are the scapegoats for all the problems afflicting the poor. And it's not a stretch to believe the GOP is going to use popular support to extract every dime from us until we are homeless too.
hycaria 9y ago
There's no other way in my opinion too. This is super stressful to me. I started working a few years ago, working my ass off with a full time job and part time one at night and I wonder if it's going to be of any worth someday or if I'm just working against my own later benefits by putting myself in the "too wealthy compared to my age class future average" fringe.

servercobra 9y ago

Same. My sister was looking at a $40k/yr private school photography degree. I sat her down and we discussed how much that was going to cost her when she graduated, what kind of job she'd need to pay it back in a reasonable time, etc. In the end, she started her own wedding photography company instead.

jedberg 9y ago
> In the end, she started her own wedding photography company instead. That's awesome! I wish more people had smart person to sit down and explain these things to them.
- softawre 9y ago
  What about some sort of state-funded guidance counselor that is required before you sign the paperwork to go to college? Or heck maybe force the colleges to pay for it.

ProAm 9y ago

Education doesn't always need to have an ROI, sometimes it's just worth what you spend on it.

gedy 9y ago
For sure, but the issue is whether you should borrow so much that it becomes a public policy issue.
- ProAm 9y ago
  Who fault is that really? The banks and gov for over extending risky loans? Or the people who borrow? Probably both, but if the banks do not know the risk of over extending risky loans Im not sure what will ever be done.
kajecounterhack 9y ago
The vast majority of folks can't afford something that expensive without an ROI. What's being discussed here is how our current system encourages getting into debt for it and how that's negative for our society.
- JBlue42 9y ago
  But American society as a whole encourages that behavior. It's not just education.
kdamken 9y ago
It does when it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.

kelukelugames 9y ago

What is the EV for a drama degree? Some actors make millions in their 20s. Probably .01% of actors?

georgeecollins 9y ago

There are some art and design schools who graduate students with great career prospects. In general people with really good modeling and animation skills can find work in entertainment. Not many people will pursue a career in drama, but I have worked with many people with that background who had great presentation and communication skills. This is an engineering heavy forum, but look around the place you work. Is everybody in management an engineer or scientist?

hkmurakami 9y ago
Looking at current management may give you inaccurate data since the competitive environment for new grads has worsened compared to 20 years ago for humanities majors. A better data point would be to look around entry level or mid level in non development roles (sales, marketing, HR/admin, etc.) and see what majors are represented there.

coss 9y ago

and now you could* likely pay for private stage lessons.