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I'm honestly less worried about Apple than others. They've at least made some measures to prove that they are willing to go some distance to protect privacy, ev

by adpirz 9y ago

I'm honestly less worried about Apple than others. They've at least made some measures to prove that they are willing to go some distance to protect privacy, even losing ground to competitors in voice recognition. Now thinking about co's like Facebook that not only has access to far more imagery of faces tied to sentiments and moments but have shown time and time again that privacy is a secondary concern AND that they're willing to use any and all that data to actively pursue vulnerable populations [1], I get quite nervous. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/01/facebook-advertising-data-insecure-teens https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/01/facebook-...

lisper 9y ago
> I'm honestly less worried about Apple than others. That's a pretty low bar. Yes, Apple at least gives lip service to security which other companies don't even bother to do, but Apple has had some pretty major security screwups lately (three in the last few weeks). You might be less worried about Apple than the competition, but you'd do well to be somewhat worried about them nonetheless.
- gaius 9y ago
  Indeed. Intent counts for nothing if the capability to secure the data is lacking. All companies claim to be secure, to respect your privacy yadda yadda...
- thisacctforreal 9y ago
  Two other issues I'm worried about with iOS: - MAC address tracking (RTS packets thrwart MAC randomization[0], not immediately clear if WiFi is fully off[1]) - All-or-nothing access to photos on the phone (append-only for apps that request it) Discord in particular is bad for the photo permission, as I don't trust China's Tencent with access to all the photos on my phone (which can include lots of frequent location information!), but pasting images doesn't work in the app. I had assumed the "Photos" permission meant "permission to prompt this dialogue" and "permission to save to Camera Roll". [0] https://arxiv.org/pdf/1703.02874v1.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1703.02874v1.pdf [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208086 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208086
  - saagarjha 9y ago
    Does Tencent not have an extension that pops up in the sharing sheet for images?
    - thisacctforreal 9y ago
      Just checked again: not for Discord. No idea about other apps owned by Tencent. It's notable Discord was developed as an American startup, and it's not clear what Tencent's involvement is. Regardless, for me it's too much access for a chat app to have in exchange for the convenince of sharing a photo from my phone.
      - zionic 9y ago
        A better solution would be for Apple to provide a decent photo picker that functions at the system level, and require a separate (special) permission to access all photos with the appropriate warning if that app needs a fancy dancy photo picker. Why do I need to give snapchat access to all photos ever just to post from my camera roll?
        thisacctforreal 9y ago
        For the longest time that was how I thought it worked :/
        jacobwil 9y ago
        It already does work like this in iOS 11. Apps can present the System photo picker to you and receive only your selected photo while having their Photos access set to "Never". If you want to try it out install the Wire messenger (if you make the account with a web browser you don't need to provide a phone number), and try to attach a photo but deny Photo library permissions. (Here's the buttons to press: https://imgur.com/a/gc5Iq https://imgur.com/a/gc5Iq). Other apps work this way on iOS 11 but this is the one that came to mind.
  - IMcD23 9y ago
    In iOS 11, there is a new permission that an app can ask for, which grants write-only access to the photo library. [0] "To protect user privacy, an iOS app linked on or after iOS 10.0, and that accesses the user’s photo library, must statically declare the intent to do so." [0] https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/General/Reference/InfoPlistKeyReference/Articles/CocoaKeys.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40009251-SW73 https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Ge...
- mikestew 9y ago
  Apple has had some pretty major security screwups lately What I'm about to write does not invalidate your statement and concern, but to me there's a huge gulf between a bug and a willfully-designed feature that explicitly follows a security anti-pattern.
confounded 9y ago
The point that the article makes is that Apple aren’t doing much to give users control over third-party access to their “faceprint”, or what it is ultimately used for.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
659087 9y ago
> co's like Facebook that not only has access to far more imagery of faces tied to sentiments and moments but have shown time and time again that privacy is a secondary concern It's only a secondary concern in the sense that they're trying to find new and innovative ways to violate it. If it weren't for that, it wouldn't be a concern for them at all.
0culus 9y ago
> Now thinking about co's like Facebook ... This is partly why I am not installing Facebook or Messenger on my iPhone X. Additionally, both apps are massive time wasters for me and, last time I checked, collectively take up a nontrivial amount of space on device. While I haven't been able to entirely exterminate Facebook from my life, restricting myself to accessing it from a "real" computer only has been most refreshing.
harry8 9y ago
Bait. And switch. Oh but they won't is not any kind of safeguard at all. We have no idea who will own apple in 10 years time, the entire management team could be changed. Even if you trust apple now, which is probably naieve, you're trusting all possible future apple. That's just crazy. Insert any company large or small in the place of apple and it is precisely and exactly the same. Apple are no different.
eksemplar 9y ago
Are you sure. I mean, I know it's tinfoil and the refusal to open phones for the FBI is debunking it, but we've given Apple a database of our fingerprints and now our facial ids as well as constant real time location data of our whereabouts. It's probably not abused, but how can we really know in the post Snowden world.
- inferiorhuman 9y ago
  Sure I'm sure. I trust Apple more than Facebook or Google, and I still don't want Apple to have my facial ID info.
- danielparks 9y ago
  Apple has repeatedly stated that Touch ID and Face ID data does not leave the device, including for backups. “Face ID data doesn’t leave your device and is never backed up to iCloud or anywhere else.” (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208108 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208108) “[Your fingerprint data] can’t be accessed by the OS on your device or by any applications running on it. It's never stored on Apple servers, it's never backed up to iCloud or anywhere else, and it can't be used to match against other fingerprint databases.” (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208108 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208108)
  - eksemplar 9y ago
    Well, 10 years ago I wouldn't have believed that my turned off computer would be used to film me by my own government. These days, I don't trust any tech company.

by adpirz 9y ago

lisper 9y ago

> I'm honestly less worried about Apple than others. That's a pretty low bar. Yes, Apple at least gives lip service to security which other companies don't even bother to do, but Apple has had some pretty major security screwups lately (three in the last few weeks). You might be less worried about Apple than the competition, but you'd do well to be somewhat worried about them nonetheless.

gaius 9y ago
Indeed. Intent counts for nothing if the capability to secure the data is lacking. All companies claim to be secure, to respect your privacy yadda yadda...
thisacctforreal 9y ago
Two other issues I'm worried about with iOS: - MAC address tracking (RTS packets thrwart MAC randomization[0], not immediately clear if WiFi is fully off[1]) - All-or-nothing access to photos on the phone (append-only for apps that request it) Discord in particular is bad for the photo permission, as I don't trust China's Tencent with access to all the photos on my phone (which can include lots of frequent location information!), but pasting images doesn't work in the app. I had assumed the "Photos" permission meant "permission to prompt this dialogue" and "permission to save to Camera Roll". [0] https://arxiv.org/pdf/1703.02874v1.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1703.02874v1.pdf [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208086 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208086
- saagarjha 9y ago
  Does Tencent not have an extension that pops up in the sharing sheet for images?
  - thisacctforreal 9y ago
    Just checked again: not for Discord. No idea about other apps owned by Tencent. It's notable Discord was developed as an American startup, and it's not clear what Tencent's involvement is. Regardless, for me it's too much access for a chat app to have in exchange for the convenince of sharing a photo from my phone.
    - zionic 9y ago
      A better solution would be for Apple to provide a decent photo picker that functions at the system level, and require a separate (special) permission to access all photos with the appropriate warning if that app needs a fancy dancy photo picker. Why do I need to give snapchat access to all photos ever just to post from my camera roll?
      - thisacctforreal 9y ago
        For the longest time that was how I thought it worked :/
      - jacobwil 9y ago
        It already does work like this in iOS 11. Apps can present the System photo picker to you and receive only your selected photo while having their Photos access set to "Never". If you want to try it out install the Wire messenger (if you make the account with a web browser you don't need to provide a phone number), and try to attach a photo but deny Photo library permissions. (Here's the buttons to press: https://imgur.com/a/gc5Iq https://imgur.com/a/gc5Iq). Other apps work this way on iOS 11 but this is the one that came to mind.
- IMcD23 9y ago
  In iOS 11, there is a new permission that an app can ask for, which grants write-only access to the photo library. [0] "To protect user privacy, an iOS app linked on or after iOS 10.0, and that accesses the user’s photo library, must statically declare the intent to do so." [0] https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/General/Reference/InfoPlistKeyReference/Articles/CocoaKeys.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40009251-SW73 https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Ge...
mikestew 9y ago
Apple has had some pretty major security screwups lately What I'm about to write does not invalidate your statement and concern, but to me there's a huge gulf between a bug and a willfully-designed feature that explicitly follows a security anti-pattern.

confounded 9y ago

The point that the article makes is that Apple aren’t doing much to give users control over third-party access to their “faceprint”, or what it is ultimately used for.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

659087 9y ago

> co's like Facebook that not only has access to far more imagery of faces tied to sentiments and moments but have shown time and time again that privacy is a secondary concern It's only a secondary concern in the sense that they're trying to find new and innovative ways to violate it. If it weren't for that, it wouldn't be a concern for them at all.

0culus 9y ago

> Now thinking about co's like Facebook ... This is partly why I am not installing Facebook or Messenger on my iPhone X. Additionally, both apps are massive time wasters for me and, last time I checked, collectively take up a nontrivial amount of space on device. While I haven't been able to entirely exterminate Facebook from my life, restricting myself to accessing it from a "real" computer only has been most refreshing.

harry8 9y ago

Bait. And switch. Oh but they won't is not any kind of safeguard at all. We have no idea who will own apple in 10 years time, the entire management team could be changed. Even if you trust apple now, which is probably naieve, you're trusting all possible future apple. That's just crazy. Insert any company large or small in the place of apple and it is precisely and exactly the same. Apple are no different.

eksemplar 9y ago

Are you sure. I mean, I know it's tinfoil and the refusal to open phones for the FBI is debunking it, but we've given Apple a database of our fingerprints and now our facial ids as well as constant real time location data of our whereabouts. It's probably not abused, but how can we really know in the post Snowden world.

inferiorhuman 9y ago
Sure I'm sure. I trust Apple more than Facebook or Google, and I still don't want Apple to have my facial ID info.
danielparks 9y ago
Apple has repeatedly stated that Touch ID and Face ID data does not leave the device, including for backups. “Face ID data doesn’t leave your device and is never backed up to iCloud or anywhere else.” (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208108 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208108) “[Your fingerprint data] can’t be accessed by the OS on your device or by any applications running on it. It's never stored on Apple servers, it's never backed up to iCloud or anywhere else, and it can't be used to match against other fingerprint databases.” (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208108 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208108)
- eksemplar 9y ago
  Well, 10 years ago I wouldn't have believed that my turned off computer would be used to film me by my own government. These days, I don't trust any tech company.