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I really cannot sympathize. My father raised a family of 6 making ~$30k/yr at his peak. Yes we struggled at times. Public school. Knock off sneakers. Cheap cost

I really cannot sympathize. My father raised a family of 6 making ~$30k/yr at his peak. Yes we struggled at times. Public school. Knock off sneakers. Cheap cost cutter food and small simple meals. Crap car. Etc. When I started working in software I made way more money right out of school than my family ever made. And I developed a lot of bad spending habits as a result. After a few years I got my head on straight. Paid off all my debt, got disciplined about saving, and cut out unnecessary expenses. It’s not that hard to live very comfortably on 100k. But you aren’t going to be eating out all the time, driving new cars, living in a gigantic mcmansion, etc. Edit: My youngest sibling was born in 93. 30k in 93 is like 50k today. HALF of what the people in this article are living on. Give me a break! These people don’t need a raise or a hand out, they need a realistic budget.

xor1 9y ago
>My father raised a family of 6 making ~$30k/yr at his peak If you're in the US, how are your parents faring for retirement? Are you and your siblings helping out?
- mberning 9y ago
  My dad retired and had a modest 401k. He also gets social security now. My mom works part time in the kitchen for the local school district. They are doing ok! I imagine they will come live with my wife and I when they are ready. I won’t put them in a home.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - xor1 9y ago
    What about the rest of your siblings? Are they going to help? I ask because my parents are retired, and they are nearing the age where they will need assistance. It's just going to be my sister and I when it comes time to deal with figuring out what we are going to do. My mother has been financially dependent on my father throughout their entire relationship. I currently live near them and visit once a week, but I don't see how I can afford to stay in the area if I want to start a family of my own, unless I find a partner that earns around as much as I do so that we can clear $300k+ a year. Modest starter homes in a neighborhood with both decent schools and a commute time under an hour to where the jobs start at $700k. My sister and I also have to figure out how we are going to deal with my mom's relatives, who currently barely want anything to do with her, but will be ready to take advantage of her once my dad passes (assuming he passes away first -- I'm quite sure he will), and she's the main holder of everything. I already saw it happen with both of my grandmothers, so this isn't just unfounded pessimism. Both sides of my family are full of shitty people. I absolutely do not mind every single cent in their networth being used to care for my mother in old age. I do mind that money being mismanaged and wasted, especially if that results in her needing more than what was originally set aside by my father.
    - pm90 9y ago
      You should absolutely have an honest conversation with her about her finances and talk to both of them about at least informing you about any changes they wish to make before they make them. Old people are very impressionable, and there are some very shitty people out there who give bad advice. They also scare easily, so they might take all their money out of their accounts when the market starts to go down even a little. Apologies, no harm intended towards older people, just have seen a lot of them get screwed over. e.g. my managers Mom had all her (late) husbands retirement money in a pretty great account which was sponsored by her husbands company. But her friend convinced her to take it all out and hold it in cash, which turned out to be really really bad advice.
- pishpash 9y ago
  If he did that then he had government support out the wazoo and free meals in the school as a child and all sorts of benefits.
  - mberning 9y ago
    Yes we were on food stamps and WIC for several years when my two youngest siblings were born. Never on welfare. We got reduced lunch at school. It was about $0.50 if I remember correctly. What’s the point though? If anything there are more benefit programs today than were available then. At $100k/yr you really should not be eligible for much benefit when you consider how much better you are doing than average.
    - tedivm 9y ago
      Food stamps and WIC are welfare. What exactly do you think welfare is?
      - Spooky23 9y ago
        Usually temporary assistance, which is when you get cash is considered welfare. Most people who understand this stuff don’t consider safety net programs like food stamps or WIC that way. The difference is that the Food stamps/WIC allow you to work, and most people on them do. “Welfare” requires you to not work in order to get a benefit. The most vociferous disgust regarding people on welfare usually comes from people who you would consider to be on “welfare”.
        tedivm 9y ago
        That is a pretty ridiculous definition, and isn't even self consistent. With the exception of disability insurance and unemployment the majority of welfare programs (including where people just get direct cash) are income based (meaning people are allowed to work, but if their income rises above certain levels they lose some of the benefits). Food stamps are exactly the same, as is the reduced price lunches mentioned. If his parents made more money they would lose access to those welfare benefits.
ivraatiems 9y ago
> My father raised a family of 6 making ~$30k/yr at his peak. When your father was working and you were growing up, $30k was worth more (perhaps much more, depending on how old you are) than it is now. His job probably had benefits and protections modern jobs don't have. What used to work for people increasingly doesn't work, in large part because benefits are disappearing, government programs and subsidies are being cut, and what's considered a "fair wage" hasn't tracked at all with how much things actually cost, especially on the coast.
- flatline 9y ago
  Crap cars are also expensive as hell to keep running nowadays. Buying new or nearly new, if you need the transportation for your job, can be more economical. That wasn’t the case 40 years ago. That labor that his mom presumably put in is also not without monetary value - two working parents cost a fortune in childcare, and many people need both salaries to make the equivalent of what just one used to.
  - MisterKent 9y ago
    Crap cars are a poor tax. They can't afford the lump sum payment for a nice car, so they basically pay the same amount or more but spread out over the life of their crap car. It's not that they don't know it's a terrible financial move, they just don't have any other options besides high interest loans or not owning a car (which likely means not being able to get to
  - rayiner 9y ago
    That's a falsehood people tell themselves to justify buying a new car. One of my parents' cars is a 2003 Acura. It's never needed anything but oil changes since we got it. Cars these days are much cheaper to operate than they used to be.
    - flatline 9y ago
      Hondas are notoriously reliable, but at a certain age things can start going wrong and if you need that car you can easily pay more than it’s worth to keep it running a few more months. It’s happened to me before, it just happened to my friend’s CRV. The problem is that they are a gamble.
tedivm 9y ago
Three out of the four "people" on this list are actually families, not individuals. So that $100k isn't going towards a single person- it's going to anywhere between three to five people. At least one of them mentioned having medical debt. That is a rather huge difference than what you describe for your life. The other person is making $100k in a very high cost of living area. He's living as you do- frugal, paying down debt, and living within his means. He does raise a good point though- $100k does not feel like the fortune and there is still quite a bit of inequity.
arca_vorago 9y ago
How long ago was that? What kind of cost of living area? You really can't take a number and use it to judge someone without taking into account so many variables. 40k in Texas would be about 80 in Cali. Due to inflation and other things that eat away at purchasing power that's much harder to raise a family or even oneself up on. Gone are the days of one person working and supporting an entire family like most baby boomers seem to still think is possible. Of course the billionaires like it this way. They are destroying the middle class, but they keep the fighting at the lower ranks. It's not the 1% that are the problem, it's the .01%.
shas3 9y ago
You’ll be downvoted for preaching frugality because many coastal-city HN software folk making six figure salaries are probably inimical to frugality: buying 3000 dollar bikes, luxury cars, eating at fancy restaurants, etc. in very anti-fragile way without saving with substantial cushion for rare adverse events.
- throwaway5752 9y ago
  Even if what you say about "HN software folk" (what do you and why are you on HN?) is true, I bet that you could not live on $30k/yr while building savings and supporting an average family, without relying on the charity of others. Particularly in a major metropolitan area in the US.
epmaybe 9y ago
So to summarize you're basically saying to live within your means.
emh68 9y ago
My great-great-great-great-great grandfather lived on $1/day! Stop whining!
disallusioned42 9y ago
I completely agree with you. I used to be in a very similar situation. I made about the same amount of money (quite a few years ago when it would have been worth a good bit more than today). I had a very similar experience. I lived paycheck to paycheck with nothing extra in the bank. Any unforeseen expense generated significant stress. It was not a fun experience. I can totally sympathize and agree that it feels miserable. But I cannot agree with the implications this article is making. I was able to turn my situation around, not by getting tax cuts or help from the government, but by changing my lifestyle and my idea of what I needed. That house that you think you can afford that sets you back 20% of your gross pay? You don't need it. Cut your residence costs to something reasonable like 10% of of gross pay and boom, you magically have a surplus of ~$800 / month. That $400 - $500 / month car payment? You don't need that either. Stash away four months of the savings we just got on our residence and buy a used clunker for $3200, drive that into the ground, and by the time that dies, you will have saved up enough money to buy a perfectly fine used car for cash. I have an artist friend who lives in NYC on ~$30k / year. She even has a car, which is an expense that a lot of people in NYC do without. Even in this situation she has been able to consistently put money away into savings and investments because she manages her money well. It's not about how much you make. Your choices have far more to do with it than most people are willing to admit.

xor1 9y ago

>My father raised a family of 6 making ~$30k/yr at his peak If you're in the US, how are your parents faring for retirement? Are you and your siblings helping out?

mberning 9y ago
My dad retired and had a modest 401k. He also gets social security now. My mom works part time in the kitchen for the local school district. They are doing ok! I imagine they will come live with my wife and I when they are ready. I won’t put them in a home.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- xor1 9y ago
  What about the rest of your siblings? Are they going to help? I ask because my parents are retired, and they are nearing the age where they will need assistance. It's just going to be my sister and I when it comes time to deal with figuring out what we are going to do. My mother has been financially dependent on my father throughout their entire relationship. I currently live near them and visit once a week, but I don't see how I can afford to stay in the area if I want to start a family of my own, unless I find a partner that earns around as much as I do so that we can clear $300k+ a year. Modest starter homes in a neighborhood with both decent schools and a commute time under an hour to where the jobs start at $700k. My sister and I also have to figure out how we are going to deal with my mom's relatives, who currently barely want anything to do with her, but will be ready to take advantage of her once my dad passes (assuming he passes away first -- I'm quite sure he will), and she's the main holder of everything. I already saw it happen with both of my grandmothers, so this isn't just unfounded pessimism. Both sides of my family are full of shitty people. I absolutely do not mind every single cent in their networth being used to care for my mother in old age. I do mind that money being mismanaged and wasted, especially if that results in her needing more than what was originally set aside by my father.
  - pm90 9y ago
    You should absolutely have an honest conversation with her about her finances and talk to both of them about at least informing you about any changes they wish to make before they make them. Old people are very impressionable, and there are some very shitty people out there who give bad advice. They also scare easily, so they might take all their money out of their accounts when the market starts to go down even a little. Apologies, no harm intended towards older people, just have seen a lot of them get screwed over. e.g. my managers Mom had all her (late) husbands retirement money in a pretty great account which was sponsored by her husbands company. But her friend convinced her to take it all out and hold it in cash, which turned out to be really really bad advice.
pishpash 9y ago
If he did that then he had government support out the wazoo and free meals in the school as a child and all sorts of benefits.
- mberning 9y ago
  Yes we were on food stamps and WIC for several years when my two youngest siblings were born. Never on welfare. We got reduced lunch at school. It was about $0.50 if I remember correctly. What’s the point though? If anything there are more benefit programs today than were available then. At $100k/yr you really should not be eligible for much benefit when you consider how much better you are doing than average.
  - tedivm 9y ago
    Food stamps and WIC are welfare. What exactly do you think welfare is?
    - Spooky23 9y ago
      Usually temporary assistance, which is when you get cash is considered welfare. Most people who understand this stuff don’t consider safety net programs like food stamps or WIC that way. The difference is that the Food stamps/WIC allow you to work, and most people on them do. “Welfare” requires you to not work in order to get a benefit. The most vociferous disgust regarding people on welfare usually comes from people who you would consider to be on “welfare”.
      - tedivm 9y ago
        That is a pretty ridiculous definition, and isn't even self consistent. With the exception of disability insurance and unemployment the majority of welfare programs (including where people just get direct cash) are income based (meaning people are allowed to work, but if their income rises above certain levels they lose some of the benefits). Food stamps are exactly the same, as is the reduced price lunches mentioned. If his parents made more money they would lose access to those welfare benefits.

ivraatiems 9y ago

> My father raised a family of 6 making ~$30k/yr at his peak. When your father was working and you were growing up, $30k was worth more (perhaps much more, depending on how old you are) than it is now. His job probably had benefits and protections modern jobs don't have. What used to work for people increasingly doesn't work, in large part because benefits are disappearing, government programs and subsidies are being cut, and what's considered a "fair wage" hasn't tracked at all with how much things actually cost, especially on the coast.

flatline 9y ago
Crap cars are also expensive as hell to keep running nowadays. Buying new or nearly new, if you need the transportation for your job, can be more economical. That wasn’t the case 40 years ago. That labor that his mom presumably put in is also not without monetary value - two working parents cost a fortune in childcare, and many people need both salaries to make the equivalent of what just one used to.
- MisterKent 9y ago
  Crap cars are a poor tax. They can't afford the lump sum payment for a nice car, so they basically pay the same amount or more but spread out over the life of their crap car. It's not that they don't know it's a terrible financial move, they just don't have any other options besides high interest loans or not owning a car (which likely means not being able to get to
- rayiner 9y ago
  That's a falsehood people tell themselves to justify buying a new car. One of my parents' cars is a 2003 Acura. It's never needed anything but oil changes since we got it. Cars these days are much cheaper to operate than they used to be.
  - flatline 9y ago
    Hondas are notoriously reliable, but at a certain age things can start going wrong and if you need that car you can easily pay more than it’s worth to keep it running a few more months. It’s happened to me before, it just happened to my friend’s CRV. The problem is that they are a gamble.

tedivm 9y ago

Three out of the four "people" on this list are actually families, not individuals. So that $100k isn't going towards a single person- it's going to anywhere between three to five people. At least one of them mentioned having medical debt. That is a rather huge difference than what you describe for your life. The other person is making $100k in a very high cost of living area. He's living as you do- frugal, paying down debt, and living within his means. He does raise a good point though- $100k does not feel like the fortune and there is still quite a bit of inequity.

arca_vorago 9y ago

How long ago was that? What kind of cost of living area? You really can't take a number and use it to judge someone without taking into account so many variables. 40k in Texas would be about 80 in Cali. Due to inflation and other things that eat away at purchasing power that's much harder to raise a family or even oneself up on. Gone are the days of one person working and supporting an entire family like most baby boomers seem to still think is possible. Of course the billionaires like it this way. They are destroying the middle class, but they keep the fighting at the lower ranks. It's not the 1% that are the problem, it's the .01%.

shas3 9y ago

You’ll be downvoted for preaching frugality because many coastal-city HN software folk making six figure salaries are probably inimical to frugality: buying 3000 dollar bikes, luxury cars, eating at fancy restaurants, etc. in very anti-fragile way without saving with substantial cushion for rare adverse events.

throwaway5752 9y ago
Even if what you say about "HN software folk" (what do you and why are you on HN?) is true, I bet that you could not live on $30k/yr while building savings and supporting an average family, without relying on the charity of others. Particularly in a major metropolitan area in the US.

epmaybe 9y ago

So to summarize you're basically saying to live within your means.

emh68 9y ago

My great-great-great-great-great grandfather lived on $1/day! Stop whining!

disallusioned42 9y ago

I completely agree with you. I used to be in a very similar situation. I made about the same amount of money (quite a few years ago when it would have been worth a good bit more than today). I had a very similar experience. I lived paycheck to paycheck with nothing extra in the bank. Any unforeseen expense generated significant stress. It was not a fun experience. I can totally sympathize and agree that it feels miserable. But I cannot agree with the implications this article is making. I was able to turn my situation around, not by getting tax cuts or help from the government, but by changing my lifestyle and my idea of what I needed. That house that you think you can afford that sets you back 20% of your gross pay? You don't need it. Cut your residence costs to something reasonable like 10% of of gross pay and boom, you magically have a surplus of ~$800 / month. That $400 - $500 / month car payment? You don't need that either. Stash away four months of the savings we just got on our residence and buy a used clunker for $3200, drive that into the ground, and by the time that dies, you will have saved up enough money to buy a perfectly fine used car for cash. I have an artist friend who lives in NYC on ~$30k / year. She even has a car, which is an expense that a lot of people in NYC do without. Even in this situation she has been able to consistently put money away into savings and investments because she manages her money well. It's not about how much you make. Your choices have far more to do with it than most people are willing to admit.