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> I really respect this kind of activism. I'd respect activism advocating for simplified, hard to game tax codes more. I don't think it's really sustainable f

> I really respect this kind of activism. I'd respect activism advocating for simplified, hard to game tax codes more. I don't think it's really sustainable for the public to get interminably worked up, protesting company after company in order to keep everyone honest. In general, the best solution to corruption is simpler, more transparent systems. Corruption thrives in complexity and arcana. Deals happen in back rooms for a reason.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Top19 9y ago
Wanted to comment that I think corporate shame is such a beautifully under-appreciated tool people should be leveraging more, and it absolutely is as much a pillar of the political process as the legislative branch. Bringing back a societal-enforced code of ethics punishable by humiliation and public shame with a defined path of atonement is what’s going to put all corporations back in line. It absolutely has dangers and can go to far, but that is inherent in nearly every good political choice. On a more scary note, a lot of security advisors have suggested we’ll be seeing a rise in terrorism against corporations and executives (very soft targets) in the next 10 years, probably coinciding with the next economic bubble. See “Brave New War” by John Robb for more info.
- strictnein 9y ago
  You say "shame the corporation", I say "caused a lot of retail workers to have a bad day and probably lose some much needed income".
  - williamdclt 9y ago
    This is France. A bad day, certainly. But the only lost income is for the company, and I doubt it is "much needed" for Apple
  - StudentStuff 9y ago
    In a country that doesn't treat it workers worse than trash, retail workers don't get screwed out of pay when their employer cancels their shift on the same day due to protests over their abhorrent practices internationally. Here in America, workers are trash as far as our society is concerned. Work harder! Ask for less!
    - nojvek 9y ago
      And pay more taxes while the rich get giant cuts
      - hueving 9y ago
        Doubling the standard deduction results in tax breaks for the working class.
        sharemywin 9y ago
        smoke and mirrors: More than 60% of U.S. households would get tax cuts from the Senate Republican tax plan in 2019, while 8% would pay more, according to the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation. By 2027, after the individual tax cuts EXPIRE, most households would see little effect, as 61% would have either tax increases or tax cuts below $100. In that year, 16% of households would have tax cuts exceeding $100 while 23% would pay more.
        mrguyorama 9y ago
        That's not even the important part. I don't care if I'm paying a sliver less taxes, because it's all being paid for by ballooning the deficit, and higher earners are getting a larger share of that anyway. Why should I care that I'm saving 5% on taxes while those making 100x my income suddenly save 15%, when their effective tax rate was already low? This is completely besides the fact that I find taxes to be a good thing, seeing as the only reason I even have a future is through publicly funded programs that helped pay for my education and subsidize the small town I grew up in and even my entire state. I'm plenty glad to pay back what the USA invested in me
- mc32 9y ago
  That sounds like premodern punishment --it still exists in some societies as a common way to enforce morality where the central govt is weak. I'm sure I'm not an exception thinking this is a backwards approach to influence behavior.
  - StudentStuff 9y ago
    What other direct action can citizens take to force Apple to comply with the law? Better to shut their stores down than let them keep operating illegally, the French tax authorities should be arresting and charging management with tax fraud for their illicit scam. Apple is stealing from you and me, increasing our taxes with these tax scams.
    - ageek123 9y ago
      As has been pointed out numerous times here, Apple is complying with the law.
      - owebmaster 9y ago
        Therefore the only available solution is to occupy the corporations until the laws change to society's benefits.
      - soVeryTired 9y ago
        Complying with the letter of the law. Not the spirit.
        dandermotj 9y ago
        Breaking the spirit of the law, but not the letter.
        StudentStuff 9y ago
        In most courts, that is a crime. French courts tend to look primarily at the spirit of the law itself, rather than precedent and arguments over the letter of it to see how it should be enforced, unlike English style legal system where precedent and minor word choices can make or break the implementation of a law. Its a very practical and approachable court system for the common person comparatively.
- tomjen3 9y ago
  >Bringing back a societal-enforced code of ethics punishable by humiliation and public shame with a defined path of atonement is what’s going to put all corporations back in line. Say that to Martin Shrekil. Big corporations are immune to shame, local business aren't.
- isoskeles 9y ago
  It sounds like you want mob justice but managed to avoid using those words.
mschuster91 9y ago
> I'd respect activism advocating for simplified, hard to game tax codes more. The problem is: the simpler the tax code, the easier it is to game. There's a reason why tax codes are universally huge and complex, and it's not just because of politicians giving tax favors to their donors.
- rapind 9y ago
  I couldn't disagree more. In my experience, complexity breeds corruption whereas simplicity exposes it. For example, how would you game a flat tax?
  - mschuster91 9y ago
    > For example, how would you game a flat tax? Imagine a car manufacturer, headquartered in Germany where all of the R&D happens, and most sales outside of Germany. Germany has invested lots of money into its education system so that the car manufacturer has a very large pool of talented and qualified personnel, but with a cash flow tax the manufacturer pays the most of his taxes in the respective countries, thus depriving the German state of the resources it needs to provide the companies in Germany with qualified personnel. In the current scenario Germany loses tax money due to evasion, in the flow tax scenario it would lose tax money because it's paid where the cars get sold. edit: whoops, I misread you - flat tax, not flow tax. A flat tax scheme would still put an inadequate load of taxes on poor-ish people. With a 20% tax, someone with 1M $ of yearly income has to pay 200.000 $ in taxes and takes home 800.000 $ while a poor person with 20.000 $ income pays 4.000 $ in taxes and takes home 16.000 $. The rich person most likely won't notice the 200.000 $ being gone, but the poor person will immediately notice it. It's not a question of gaming the system here, but of social fairness.
    - rapind 9y ago
      Whereas I think charging one person 20% and another person 50% is unfair. Is the person paying 50% using public services that much more? Maybe there's an argument to be had for a forced charity fee, but that can be accomplished with one flat deduction across the board (say 50k). Again a simple rule that applies to everyone equally. H&R Block will hate it. A flat tax is simple, more fair, and efficient. Plus it's pretty hard to dodge when there are no loopholes / 50 different forms to fill out and process.
matwood 9y ago
> I'd respect activism advocating for simplified, hard to game tax codes more. I agree. I feel like many of the protests are more along the lines of 'this company makes a lot of money so they should pay more taxes, regardless of the current law'. As a society we would get a lot further along making real changes if we protested the government who a) put these complexities in place and b) who seem to lack the will to change. In the end, a single corporation making a lot of money is easier to hate, rather than understanding all the backroom deals/lobbying to get the complexity added in the first place.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Top19 9y ago

Wanted to comment that I think corporate shame is such a beautifully under-appreciated tool people should be leveraging more, and it absolutely is as much a pillar of the political process as the legislative branch. Bringing back a societal-enforced code of ethics punishable by humiliation and public shame with a defined path of atonement is what’s going to put all corporations back in line. It absolutely has dangers and can go to far, but that is inherent in nearly every good political choice. On a more scary note, a lot of security advisors have suggested we’ll be seeing a rise in terrorism against corporations and executives (very soft targets) in the next 10 years, probably coinciding with the next economic bubble. See “Brave New War” by John Robb for more info.

strictnein 9y ago
You say "shame the corporation", I say "caused a lot of retail workers to have a bad day and probably lose some much needed income".
- williamdclt 9y ago
  This is France. A bad day, certainly. But the only lost income is for the company, and I doubt it is "much needed" for Apple
- StudentStuff 9y ago
  In a country that doesn't treat it workers worse than trash, retail workers don't get screwed out of pay when their employer cancels their shift on the same day due to protests over their abhorrent practices internationally. Here in America, workers are trash as far as our society is concerned. Work harder! Ask for less!
  - nojvek 9y ago
    And pay more taxes while the rich get giant cuts
    - hueving 9y ago
      Doubling the standard deduction results in tax breaks for the working class.
      - sharemywin 9y ago
        smoke and mirrors: More than 60% of U.S. households would get tax cuts from the Senate Republican tax plan in 2019, while 8% would pay more, according to the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation. By 2027, after the individual tax cuts EXPIRE, most households would see little effect, as 61% would have either tax increases or tax cuts below $100. In that year, 16% of households would have tax cuts exceeding $100 while 23% would pay more.
        mrguyorama 9y ago
        That's not even the important part. I don't care if I'm paying a sliver less taxes, because it's all being paid for by ballooning the deficit, and higher earners are getting a larger share of that anyway. Why should I care that I'm saving 5% on taxes while those making 100x my income suddenly save 15%, when their effective tax rate was already low? This is completely besides the fact that I find taxes to be a good thing, seeing as the only reason I even have a future is through publicly funded programs that helped pay for my education and subsidize the small town I grew up in and even my entire state. I'm plenty glad to pay back what the USA invested in me
mc32 9y ago
That sounds like premodern punishment --it still exists in some societies as a common way to enforce morality where the central govt is weak. I'm sure I'm not an exception thinking this is a backwards approach to influence behavior.
- StudentStuff 9y ago
  What other direct action can citizens take to force Apple to comply with the law? Better to shut their stores down than let them keep operating illegally, the French tax authorities should be arresting and charging management with tax fraud for their illicit scam. Apple is stealing from you and me, increasing our taxes with these tax scams.
  - ageek123 9y ago
    As has been pointed out numerous times here, Apple is complying with the law.
    - owebmaster 9y ago
      Therefore the only available solution is to occupy the corporations until the laws change to society's benefits.
    - soVeryTired 9y ago
      Complying with the letter of the law. Not the spirit.
      - dandermotj 9y ago
        Breaking the spirit of the law, but not the letter.
        StudentStuff 9y ago
        In most courts, that is a crime. French courts tend to look primarily at the spirit of the law itself, rather than precedent and arguments over the letter of it to see how it should be enforced, unlike English style legal system where precedent and minor word choices can make or break the implementation of a law. Its a very practical and approachable court system for the common person comparatively.
tomjen3 9y ago
>Bringing back a societal-enforced code of ethics punishable by humiliation and public shame with a defined path of atonement is what’s going to put all corporations back in line. Say that to Martin Shrekil. Big corporations are immune to shame, local business aren't.
isoskeles 9y ago
It sounds like you want mob justice but managed to avoid using those words.

mschuster91 9y ago

> I'd respect activism advocating for simplified, hard to game tax codes more. The problem is: the simpler the tax code, the easier it is to game. There's a reason why tax codes are universally huge and complex, and it's not just because of politicians giving tax favors to their donors.

rapind 9y ago
I couldn't disagree more. In my experience, complexity breeds corruption whereas simplicity exposes it. For example, how would you game a flat tax?
- mschuster91 9y ago
  > For example, how would you game a flat tax? Imagine a car manufacturer, headquartered in Germany where all of the R&D happens, and most sales outside of Germany. Germany has invested lots of money into its education system so that the car manufacturer has a very large pool of talented and qualified personnel, but with a cash flow tax the manufacturer pays the most of his taxes in the respective countries, thus depriving the German state of the resources it needs to provide the companies in Germany with qualified personnel. In the current scenario Germany loses tax money due to evasion, in the flow tax scenario it would lose tax money because it's paid where the cars get sold. edit: whoops, I misread you - flat tax, not flow tax. A flat tax scheme would still put an inadequate load of taxes on poor-ish people. With a 20% tax, someone with 1M $ of yearly income has to pay 200.000 $ in taxes and takes home 800.000 $ while a poor person with 20.000 $ income pays 4.000 $ in taxes and takes home 16.000 $. The rich person most likely won't notice the 200.000 $ being gone, but the poor person will immediately notice it. It's not a question of gaming the system here, but of social fairness.
  - rapind 9y ago
    Whereas I think charging one person 20% and another person 50% is unfair. Is the person paying 50% using public services that much more? Maybe there's an argument to be had for a forced charity fee, but that can be accomplished with one flat deduction across the board (say 50k). Again a simple rule that applies to everyone equally. H&R Block will hate it. A flat tax is simple, more fair, and efficient. Plus it's pretty hard to dodge when there are no loopholes / 50 different forms to fill out and process.

matwood 9y ago

> I'd respect activism advocating for simplified, hard to game tax codes more. I agree. I feel like many of the protests are more along the lines of 'this company makes a lot of money so they should pay more taxes, regardless of the current law'. As a society we would get a lot further along making real changes if we protested the government who a) put these complexities in place and b) who seem to lack the will to change. In the end, a single corporation making a lot of money is easier to hate, rather than understanding all the backroom deals/lobbying to get the complexity added in the first place.