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I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental issue for
by beloch 9y ago
I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental issue for us today. Individuals, and Corporations we treat as legal individuals, produce value for our society in several ways, and paying taxes is one of them. When wealthy individuals or large corporations dodge taxes via off-shore firms, etc. they erode the basis of public services and increase the tax burden on less wealthy individuals and smaller companies.
Worse yet, they frequently seem to do this by subverting our public officials. It's reached the point where our regulatory institutions and even our government appear severely compromised by the financial concerns of corporations. If our elected representatives need corporate money just to get elected, how can we rely on them to represent us on issues that might run against the interests of those corporate donors? Direct public action, such as protests, seem to be the last recourse left available to us on certain topics.
When you have a large, enormously successful company sitting on gargantuan cash reserves not paying its taxes and getting away with it, you have a problem. Apple probably isn't even the worst offender, but they're famous and have a built in hate-club (anything that inspires fans also inspires anti-fans). While this protest only had a few hundred supporters, that's pretty incredible for this kind of topic. Hopefully this sort of protest happens more often and gives tax-evading corporations pause.
- walshemj 9y agoTrue but as some one I know said about the 35 hour working "funny how its always the non French companies that got raided"
- wavefunction 9y agoWhy is it funny that these activists focus on foreign companies selling in France but not paying taxes on those sales? Seems perfectly understandable to me why foreign firms behaving like Apple would be the target.
- kemiller 9y agoThe French were primary architects of the EU. It's a bit rich to complain now that Ireland and Apple are taking advantage of its rules.
- kalleboo 9y agoThe EU was created as a democratic institution, it's not strange at all to protest its laws, how they're implemented, or how they're followed.
- gaius 9y agoI don't think anyone democratically voted for enshrining tax arbitrage across the bloc - this is the Irish government, a massive recipient of EU subsidies, gaming the system.
- dandermotj 9y agoAs an Irish and European person, I want you to know that your comment is misinformed and misleading. Global tax avoidance and evasion by multinationals has no relation to the formation of the EU, and the Irish government are at a gigantic economic loss (not advantage) as a result.
- valuearb 9y agoApple pays every franc of tax it owes France on its sales there, no one has ever shown otherwise.
- simonsarris 9y agoThat's not true. Tax authorities in France already fined Apple a 400 million adjustment last year for tax avoidance in FY 2011 and 2013. After 2013 Apple changed their practices to be more obfuscated. http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2016/11/24/le-fisc-francais-reclamerait-400-millions-d-euros-a-apple_5037144_3234.html?xtor=RSS-3208 http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2016/11/24/le-fisc-fr...
- innocentoldguy 9y agoDoes this sort of activism really help? I mean, this isn't an Apple-only issue and if Apple is obeying tax laws, then are they really going to consider paying more just because a small group of people chanted in one of their stores for a while? Even if Apple is breaking the law, isn't it worth putting up with a handful of activists for a few hours if it saves them millions in taxes and makes their investors happy? I think a more effective form of activism would be to flood representatives' offices with requests to change tax laws and to vote for candidates willing to do so. I think most governments and taxes in the world today render "fair taxation" an oxymoron. It is a mess at all levels and should be fixed, but I'm not sure localized protests at places of business are the most effective way to go about doing it.
- eli_gottlieb 9y ago>Does this sort of activism really help? Yes. It reduces the company's bottom line until they either inflict bad publicity on themselves, sit and cope with it silently, or submit to the demand to pay their lawful taxes. >I think a more effective form of activism would be to flood representatives' offices with requests to change tax laws and to vote for candidates willing to do so. You're getting downvoted because we've got a lot of Americans on HN. For us, that approach failed as of last night.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- linkmotif 9y ago> or submit to the demand to pay their lawful taxes. They pay their lawful taxes. They engage in tax avoidance, not tax evasion.
- threeseed 9y ago1) Anyone who thinks this will affect Apple's bottom line is delusional. The negative effects of the publicity pales in comparison to the tax benefits. 2) Protesting your local politicians always works provided you have enough people. You're just not doing a good enough job convincing your fellow citizens. That's how you really effect change.
- humanrebar 9y ago> I really respect this kind of activism. I'd respect activism advocating for simplified, hard to game tax codes more. I don't think it's really sustainable for the public to get interminably worked up, protesting company after company in order to keep everyone honest. In general, the best solution to corruption is simpler, more transparent systems. Corruption thrives in complexity and arcana. Deals happen in back rooms for a reason.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Top19 9y agoWanted to comment that I think corporate shame is such a beautifully under-appreciated tool people should be leveraging more, and it absolutely is as much a pillar of the political process as the legislative branch. Bringing back a societal-enforced code of ethics punishable by humiliation and public shame with a defined path of atonement is what’s going to put all corporations back in line. It absolutely has dangers and can go to far, but that is inherent in nearly every good political choice. On a more scary note, a lot of security advisors have suggested we’ll be seeing a rise in terrorism against corporations and executives (very soft targets) in the next 10 years, probably coinciding with the next economic bubble. See “Brave New War” by John Robb for more info.
- strictnein 9y agoYou say "shame the corporation", I say "caused a lot of retail workers to have a bad day and probably lose some much needed income".
- williamdclt 9y agoThis is France. A bad day, certainly. But the only lost income is for the company, and I doubt it is "much needed" for Apple
- StudentStuff 9y agoIn a country that doesn't treat it workers worse than trash, retail workers don't get screwed out of pay when their employer cancels their shift on the same day due to protests over their abhorrent practices internationally. Here in America, workers are trash as far as our society is concerned. Work harder! Ask for less!
- threeseed 9y agoReally ? This kind of activism is completely pointless and ignorant. Apple is paying the taxes it is legally responsible to pay. End of story. If you want them to pay more tax then you should be protesting against Macron and the rest of the French government and get the laws changed. Multinational tax avoidance can ONLY be fixed through international cooperation of governments.
- matt_wulfeck 9y ago$9 billion in taxes. You can't please everybody.
- StephenMelon 9y agoAre you implying that you’d be happy for a corporation to pay minimal tax, as long as the amount paid sounded like a large number?
- matt_wulfeck 9y agoI’m saying lashing out at a company that’s paying 9 billion in taxes as “stealing” is short-sighted. Especially if you’re going to make that your public activist stunt.
- SomeStupidPoint 9y agoPeople have been trying that, for at least a few decades. Do facts like almost every American wants a more fair system change it? No, because the governing structure has itself been corrupted after decades of abuse. Therefore, it seems the most effective means of causing change -- given that what you suggest has failed for decades -- would be to cause direct financial harm to those who are actively corrupting the system for their benefit, as that changes the calculus for them and incentivizes stopping. This is a downright civil way to do that when society breaks down -- the poor used to just stab people over bad tax law.
- westiseast 9y agoTechnically the problem isn’t Macron or France - it’s the Irish and Jersey tax loopholes.
- 131012 9y agoI feel some commenters are missing the point that these symbolic protests are only trying to bring the general issue of tax optimization to the public eye. I'm pretty sure no one went there thinking: "Ok let's shout a few slogans and then Apple will apologize and send a billion dollars check to the French government." They most likely chose Apple only because it is an easy target because of the ubiquitous Apple stores.
- valuearb 9y agoApple pays every franc of tax it owes France on its sales there, no one has ever shown otherwise.
- PhasmaFelis 9y agoWhat's your rebuttal to this? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15836006 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15836006
- visarga 9y agoWhy do you feel the need to repost the same message twice in two different places?
- boyce 9y agoProbably not since 1998
- hux_ 9y agoIts not that Apple doesn't care. The over-optimized consumption culture that props up an Apple does not care. We are way past the point of no return. Might as well be standing in front of a giant redwood and yelling at it to change direction.
- emerged 9y agoOf course Apple doesn't care, and the rest that you wrote is also true.
- hux_ 9y agoI meant what I said. There are people who care in every mega corp you can find. But they are trapped by that same consumption culture. And unable to do jack. In a way they have become replaceable cogs of a giant machine they created.
- profalseidol 9y agoThe most important that this activism achieves is getting mass consciousness. It's a small step to getting the common sense remember that there is something wrong with our society and there are people willing to do something about it.